This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 018 – SeXploration with SeXvangelicals: Chad & Abigail, Sexuality after Escaping a Purity Cult (Part 1)

August 9, 2023

S: This may or may not make sense to put in the end – I don’t know if it makes sense or not, but you know Tracey, you might as well record this.

T: It’s recording, I’m smart that way.

[laughter]

S: You are so smart.

A: So smart.

S: After you sent me that link, Abigail, I went to the site and I’m just poking around reading things, and all of a sudden I remembered, it’s like yeah – when I got out of the marriage and I’m exploring my sexuality and having fun with other people, there were things that would be considered a little “kinky” by some, and I don’t think it was coming out of – I guess what I just want to be sure we also balance out is that if someone has ideas or exploring things other than “missionary position” or even just the basics of oral sex, that that is not necessarily the result of trauma.

A: Absolutely.

S: And, what you guys have worked through is absolutely the result of trauma. So again, if at some point it makes sense for me and/or Tracey to weigh in with our own little minor, kinky, out-of-the-ordinary stuff, I’m happy to do so.

A: Cool.

S: Tracey, however – she’s never done anything but just basic vaginal and given blow jobs. That’s it. She’s never been creative.

[laughter]

T: For Chad – so we did do a first part…

A: I heard about the hot tub. That is just not true. You don’t have that kind of a hot tub on a pavilion overlooking a cityscape, and that’s all you did in that hot tub.

T: That’s right. He was actually…

S: Hot tub sex is not true.

T: It is true.

S: It’s not good.

T: It may not be good, but it is true.

A: And I’m here to tell you straight up, ocean sex is a lie. What a horrible decision that was.

[laughter]

S: Don’t get me started on fun with fruit.

[laughter]

T: I love VeggieTales and I’m going to work that back in. The whole new take on VeggieTales would make them crazy.

C: Oh, fuck Larry. Let’s talk about Jerry and Jimmy Gourd. They’ve got the whole flange base and everything going on. There’s some good stuff right there.

T: I think we could make so much money doing VeggieTales revisited.

A: I would 100% buy that. I would 100% buy those sex toys.

T: I would totally buy those sex toys.

[laughter]

C: [singing] If a squash can make you smile…

[laughter]

T: You’re the musical one, right Chad?

C: Allegedly.

S: Oh god.

T: And we gotta introduce … The Radish.

Chad [in a radio announcer voice]: You’re listening to The Radish on the big CHAD, it’s hot out there but we’re playing the cool zunes in here.

[laughter]

T: Oh that’s so good.

S: We gotta start this thing.

T: Okay. We did, and so we’ll figure it out. Hi, I’m Tracey…

S: Wait, I’ve gotta find something.

T: I mean, this is the best part, so it can come in…

S: We’ll put it in. I’ll work it out.

T: I know. Hi, …

C: Like you would with the VeggieTales sex toys.

T: Exactly!

[laughter]

S: We’ll put it in, and we will work it out.

T: And maybe that’s the new title.

[more laughter]

C: God ain’t bigger than the boogie-man.

T: The VeggieTales they didn’t teach you about.

…

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters!

S: We’re already laughing because we’ve already been laughing with our guests for today. We’ve got a doozy of a topic. We’re going to open up, looking under the hood, ripping off bandages – whatever you want to call this. We’re gonna talk about stuff that can feel shameful, uncomfortable, scary, off-limits, but it can also be pretty fucking funny.

T: Yes. We can have some fun along the way.

S: We’re going to be talking about all this with two super-brave, wonderful people, Abigail and Chad.

T: Yes, but before we start we want to give a warning for both children and those who may be triggered by these topics. We’ll be discussing sexuality in a very open and explicit way, so this is probably not a good episode if you’ve got kids around. We’ll also be including discussions about sexual abuse and assault; ritualized childhood spankings; spiritual abuse, and more. So please use discretion and take care of yourself.

S: So Tracey, this idea about how the spiritualized, abusive discipline of children that was prevalent within IBLP – why am I saying was prevalent? I’m sure it still is. And, is all too common in fundamentalist and evangelical circles – how this ritualized abuse can be related to struggling with sexual issues later in life – that was something that had never, ever occurred to me. When you first mentioned it a little while back it made me very curious.

T: Yes, so listeners you will probably remember (and if you don’t, go back and find them), our four-part series on purity culture called Virgins and Volcanos. In those we discuss pretty open detail how we were impacted by the teachings of modesty and abstinence – that’s what we called it back in the day, and virginity culture, which now tends to get lumped into one topic called purity culture. I described how that environment and mindset pretty much made me sexually dysfunctional. It took me decades to unwind some of that. And then, in our interview with Abigail in Abigail’s story, which …

S: Episode 10, we’ll put a link in the show notes.

T: Yes, and Abigail you mentioned how your sexual development had been so impacted through the teachings of this IBLP, and at one point you mentioned sexual kinks. I totally keyed into that and I thought, wow that is a deep dive that I think would be so important to talk about, and worth an entire episode to explore. So we talked to you, and we thought you’re brave enough, and we didn’t just want to have this with a fellow cult sister; we thought let’s bring in a cult brother too, to explore this topic. So we have your friend Chad, who we met in out last episode.

S: Yep. So to really help bring this out of the shadows of shame – that’s what we’re doing guys, we want to take this stuff that we’ve all had to hide because of the shit that was put on us; let’s take it out of the shadows and bring it into the light of self-love, self-acceptance, and we are really honored to be joined by our guests. You are both survivors of the IBLP cult founded by Bill Gothard, aka Bill GotHard…

T: (In all the wrong ways.)

S: Yes, and featured in the docuseries Shiny Happy People. You’ve had some very personal and very pertinent stuff that you’re willing to share with us. So welcome Abigail, and welcome Chad.

A: Hi. Happy to be back again with my favorite culty sisters.

C: And thank you so much for having me along as well. I can’t wait to see how this conversation plays out.

[laughter]

S: You might want to hold off those thanks until we get to the end of it. See how it all turns out.

C: Bring it on.

T: Yeah. So Abigail, you are the one that mentioned this sexual development and it really caught my attention, because I was very aware of Larry Tomczak who also wrote one of these horrible, abusive spanking manuals for children.

S: Way back in the day that was called God, the Rod, and your child’s Bod. Isn’t that wonderful.

A: Gross.

T: Yes. We touched on this in our last episode and of course the Shiny Happy People touches on it in episode 2 with the very graphic display of working out what that looks like. But what caught my attention was that Larry Tomczak’s daughter, as she grew up, brought a sexual abuse case against him for that very ritual. Then when you mentioned that I was like, oh my god, this does really tie into together on how it can ultimately screw up your sexual development. So what do you have to say that you didn’t get to say in our earlier episode?

A: I think it’s a topic that, at least from my experience (I’ll be interested to hear Chad’s take) is almost consistently brought up when you get in a safe space with other IBLP survivors, where things are feeling safe and comfortable, and maybe like, three drinks in. It almost always comes up where you start to talk about the fact that sexual experiences were very different after I left the IBLP and the cult as a whole. It took a long time to get my feet up under me, and they’re still not up under me. I’m still very much learning pieces about this.

C: Yes, I mean, you’re absolutely right – especially when you get with fellow survivors and you suddenly start being honest with each other; like, okay seriously, when did you start fucking?

[laughter]

C: Let’s talk about that, because one thing we absolutely never talked about with each other when we were all in the cult was sexuality of any sort, especially in mixed company. If it happened, I never experienced it. But even guys hanging out with each other would never bring up anything sexual – unless there were just some circles I was not invited into. But it’s interesting now that almost universally, whenever we have conversations with folks, one on one, and we get comfortable, we say okay, well what was it like, and what’s your journey been so far.

S: So are you guys up for talking about what it was like and what your journey’s been so far?

A: Yeah, for sure, and I can go first. I think in the episodes previously when we talked about my story, we ended it at the end of my first marriage which was still very much in, and then um…

S: When you say very much in, you mean very much still in that whole belief system?

A: Yes, still very much in evangelical and purity culture, and those thought processes. I kind of very fondly refer to the several years after that as my sexual renaissance period. It’s a big joke among my friends; they’ll be like oh, tell us a sexual renaissance story, because I was just in a really fortunate position, that I had a fantastic therapist who really sat down with me, and was like, hey, so you’re divorced; you’re not a virgin; you are no longer holding very much to the traditional evangelical belief system of kind of anything about that – what do you want to do? I had never really thought about it, and I didn’t know what I wanted to do. It suddenly seemed like a big question – all the reasons I had had to make these decisions about my sexuality and my sex life no longer existed. I wasn’t a virgin, you can’t put that genie back in the bottle – it was done. I was divorced. I didn’t feel like I was particularly saving myself for anyone or anything, or any higher purpose.

S: At that point you had only had sex with your husband?

A: Yes.

S: Okay.

A: I think I was 27. I was very bound and determined; I was very concerned that my divorce coming out of the clergy – my husband was a clergyman – so I was coming out of the clergy and I was very determined I was not going to post anything on social media; like, not a picture with another assigned male at birth person. No men on my social media for a full year, and I was pretty committed to that, mostly for my own sake. I just didn’t want to deal with the backlash of it. I didn’t feel like I was ready to date, I had some really phenomenal, really close gay friends that I was spending most of my time with; we had made an agreement not to post on social media for that year or tag each other, so that’s what we did. So I was mostly just hanging out with my gay boys; enjoying a really lovely fullness of freedom and friendship that was super valuable to me.

S: I’m gonna ask a quick question here.

A: Yeah.

S: So you still have your Christian faith, I think? Is that right?

A: I was very much in the unknowing at that point.

S: Okay.

A: I was still believing in God, but everything else I was really unsure about.

S: And you’re hanging out with your gay friends. I’m going to say something that may sound a little stereotypical but I’ll just say what my experience has been with my gay friends; they are just a bunch of fun and they’re not hung up, and they’re free to talk and joke about things that are sexual, that back when I was in the whole Christian thought prison, I would have gone gasp oh my god that’s so inappropriate. But now it’s just like – this is just normal and fun, and it feels good. Did you find that same sort of beginning with the freedom of frivolity?

A: Yes. Hugely so. And also there was this phenomenal worshipping of my body going on because they were oh my god, you look so hot, you’re fire, let’s wear this, let’s wear that, let’s dress you up, let’s go out. There was a freedom in it because sexuality really was off the table, right? Because that’s – not what you do with your gay friends. So there was this kind of season of really celebrating – I had had a very stressful divorce and I lost a bunch of weight, and I looked fan-tas-tic. Like, phenomenal. Like, they say revenge body – I was right there. So it was just so fun and I was really starting to figure out who I was, and what I wanted to look like, and how I could move, and things like that that were really amazing. I spent kind of a year there, and then – I don’t remember exactly how it happened, but at some point we were out one night and they just decided it had been long enough, and they were like, listen, you’ve got to get laid.

[laughter]

A: That was really how it went, and they were just bound and determined, and I was terrified. I’d never really dated the way I think the average person thinks about dating, and I’d certainly – it would never have occurred to me to sleep with somebody else outside a super-committed relationship. I don’t even remember what app they signed me up for, it was probably Tinder – I think it had just come out, so they were like, we’re going to do it and you’re going to go on a date, and this is going to be super safe because you’re going to tell us exactly where you are, geo-cache your location and you’ll be fine. it’s gonna be great. So I did. I went on a date, and I was terrified and not at all sure what to do. I think we went on – he was super-nice guy, so, so sweet. He was a personal trainer which was a solid added bonus. We went on several dates; quite a number of dates, because I was pretty terrified, and then – people that know me really well this will make so much sense, but I think to anyone else it’s insane. So I was like, I’m gonna do it. I’m gonna sleep with this guy; this is going to be the thing. So, in my very business like manner of how I handle my personal life, I was like, so, I’m going to need you to get me full STI testing within 48 hours of me, before I sleep with you. And to his credit, this guy was just like yeah okay, sure. And he did!

[laughter]

S: That’s great!

A: Which is insane! It’s insane. There was no spontaneity to it; I just couldn’t do it, because I was like, nope, I’m going to need a clean bill of health, like I was Coggins testing my pony. Like we were getting ready to ship a horse.

S: Coggins test, for those who have no idea, it’s this highly-infectious, fatal disease in horses and you can’t take them anywhere until you have a blood test and paperwork to prove that your horse is negative, so I love that. You needed your man to have a negative Coggins.

A: A negative Coggins test.

S: For his pee-pee!

A: And like I said, this guys was just so chill, and so cool with it, and he was like, yeah okay no problem. So he did, and I honestly cannot tell you how the deed was done. I’m really not sure.

S: Were you drinking?

A: Probably not to any real extent, because I was pretty terrified at being drunk with a straight man. I was afraid, but excited. So not unwilling, but I was nervous. I do remember it was at my place, because that felt controlled. It also felt that my gay boys; they knew where I was, and they may have actually been in the other room. That is possible, I’m just not 100% sure. But I do remember when the deed was done, I remember laying back and being like oh my god, this makes so much more sense now.

[laughter]

T: I can relate to that.

S: So it was good?

A: It was, it was great. It was just like, super-great. Not as great as it would be later with other people, but it was great.

T: Comparatively.

A: Yeah, I learned that there was really great, but it was solid, it was a solid go back for it again choice. I stayed with him, because I just wasn’t at that point ready to date around; I stayed with him quite some time, I think a little bit under a year, then he got real serious and I was getting less and less serious as he was getting more and more serious. It was after him that I sat down with my therapist and said, what if I just dated a whole bunch of people and told them all I was dating a whole bunch of people, and they just kind of dealt with it. I did that for a number of years.

S: Alright – what did your therapist tell you?

A: She was great. She was like, yeah I think that’s great. We had some really deep discussions about what consent was, because I really hadn’t been in a position where that was in my vocabulary, and she just wanted to make very sure – and I’m so grateful for this – she was like, you can get all the way to the point where he is over you, about to put his penis in your vagina, and you can say changed my mind, and get up and leave.

S: Mmhmm.

A: We rehearsed it, practised, saying nope, I’ve changed my mind, I just want to leave, and what that looked like; safety – she was so great during that period of time where I was really learning how to be open and safe, and I did require paperwork for a very long time – the Coggins test was unfortunately not just for that poor fellow; for a long time I required paperwork.

S: I think that’s great, Abigail.

T: It’s a new app. Instead of Tinder it needs to be Tinder-safe.

A: I’m telling you, if they would do a Tinder plus for you to upload that, it would go like crazy.

[laughter]

T: For those listeners that haven’t heard Abigail’s story, we’re going to put links in the show notes where she talks about her marriage, so obviously outside of that was not her first time. Ohh. So, Chad. We haven’t really heard about you and your first time; where you were at coming to be okay with sex, or not okay with sex.

C: So, yeah, that was a major step for me. When I first started finding my way out of fundamentalism a lot of the impetus as well, was relationships. I had had several bad experiences with not just courtship, as it was prescribed in the ATI, which was essentially a variation on arranged marriage, but also the whole dating with a purpose thing, which I still held onto while finding my way out. I had had several relationships that had gone sour and I felt like I had failed, because I had been raised with this notion that you were supposed to find one person, only date them or court them, and then settle down with them and you’re good to go – you avoid a lot of heartbreak and you avoid that whole evangelical-ese idea of giving pieces of your heart away to people who are not your partner.  Right?

T: So we haven’t heard a lot from a male on this. Did you feel a pressure or did you feel you were so tight with God that you would know? How did that translate into your heart, brain and heart, that one person is supposed to be your partner for life?

C: It had a lot to do with the basic teachings I was taught in the Institute in Basic Life Principles, or IBLP cult I was raised in; and also when I first started expressing an interest in actually settling down and starting a relationship, my folks gave me a copy of the book Boy Meets Girl, by Joshua Harris.

T: [laughing]

C: Now, a lot of people are familiar with Joshua Harris’ book I Kissed Dating Goodbye; I found it to be boring. But Boy Meets Girl was a different matter, because it was about oh, here’s how you can have a well and truly blessed relationship with just one person and avoid all the pitfalls that temporary relationships have. It was the story basically, of Joshua Harris and how he met his wife, and the things they came up with together. Incidentally, they’re divorced now. But yeah, I read that, and it was a big part of my formative oh, I’m an adult now, I want to go ahead and start pursuing a relationship. I tried it with one young lady who I basically presented this idea (oh god, I was so cringe) – I actually asked everybody but her if I should pursue this. I went through her levels of authority (yeah) – so I asked…

T: Wait – how old are you?

C: I was 19.

T: Okay! You’re trying to do it the right way. So you’re 19, and you’re a virgin, I take it?

C: Oh, absolutely.

T: Okay. Just wanted to clarify that for the listeners.

C: This was the first time I’d ever publicly expressed interest in anyone, which my folks being who they are, and most of my extended family – they all breathed a sigh of relief when I said I was interested in women. Which I had been all along, it was just, I had shut myself off any time that topic came up, because I did not want speculation, I did not want people telling me what to do.

T: Mmhmm.

S: Sure.

C: Well, now I was in it, and I asked everybody from her church friends, to her pastor, to her mother, to her brother and everything, if I should pursue it – before I even asked her. I got approval from all of them, which again looking back, was just so cringe. She absolutely was not interested.

S: Oh noo.

A: Sad.

C: But again, I didn’t know much about consent or anything like that. She expressed it in a way like – well maybe later or something like that. She was very nicely telling me to back off. I didn’t take it as that, I was just like oh well I’ll try to find excuses to hang around and maybe she’ll change her mind. It was not great, so eventually she told me in no uncertain terms I am not interested, and I was like well, I just gave a piece of my heart away.

A: Awww.

T: Ohhhh.

C: At that point I felt like I was already sullied, as it were. I had already done all this, and I didn’t get it right the first time…

S: Wait, I’m going to interject something here – to folks who are listening who have not been indoctrinated and brainwashed in this purity culture, God’s will shit. That whole process you just mentioned about praying and seeking God and trying to find is this the woman and going to all these levels of authority – you were invested. This isn’t just I have a crush on someone. This is I need to figure out exactly is this what God wants? Is this God’s will for the sake of God’s kingdom? And you go for it and then she’s not into it, so you’ve got to be questioning yourself, did I get it totally wrong? So not only has your heart been kind of a little bit of your heart broken, but now you’ve got this whole inner turmoil of man, maybe I just can’t hear the will of God.

C: Exactly. At that point – this is when I was starting to find my way out of fundamentalism. I tried several different ways to talk to and have relationship with women. I tried another Dating with Purpose thing, asking her parents’ permission, and it didn’t work. They actually put the no on that one. I tried traditional dating with someone who was raised in the Southern Baptist Convention, and that was coincidentally my first kiss.

T: Ooh!

C: She very heavily hinted after like, four or five dates, that she would really like to be kissed, and she did it in the form of a song that she strategically played on the radio.

S: What song was that?

C: I Wanna Kiss A Girl by Keith Urban.

S: Awww.

A: That’s such a good song.

C: So yeah. I felt pressured, because I’d always thought we’re saving that till our wedding, obviously. And I felt pressured to do it, so I was just like okay, I guess we’re doing this now, so I gave her a kiss, and that actually ended up being a big part of my deconstruction later, because when that relationship didn’t work out – we only dated for about five months or so, I went back to the whole courtship thing and had yet another horrible incident with someone’s very controlling father who would not let me take any initiative in the relationship without running absolutely everything by him first, up to and including changing our Facebook status. That was the thing that really set him off; he took time out of his busy schedule to meet me at Starbucks and tell me what a horny, untrustworthy person I was being. At that point I was about 25 years old; I had my own place and I had my own career going, and it just kind of clicked. I looked at him and I said why are we having this conversation? This is between me and her, and I’m not sure any more at this point what your role in this is.

T: Wow.

C: We are both adults, we are in our 20s, we are making decisions, and I would kindly like you to know your role there. He blew up and she didn’t take it well either, so that relationship ended. That was when I started bringing up to my counsellor I don’t think I know how to do relationships very well. I talked to her about all the issues I’d been having, especially about the one girl I’d kissed that really broke my heart, and we did a lot of unpacking on that. She was showing me how there were several other toxic things in the relationship that I’d been ignoring, and my final protest on that was, but we kissed. And she said it’s just a kiss. I had never heard that before. I had never heard that anything involving relationships or sex, or romance or what-have-you was just anything.

T&S: Wow.

C: And that kind of clicked to me. You know when you think about it, in the long run it kind of is. You know?

T: It kind of is. You mentioned something as far as you don’t even notice some other toxic things going on, and that’s part of the heart of this whole message that messes us up on so many levels. You’re conditioned to accept toxic aspects of relationships.

C: Yep. And it was definitely present there. One of the things my counsellor told me was you need to stop trying to date your mother, because every red flag she pointed out had a nexus to some abuse that my mother put me through. And I was like, well that’s awkward. Maybe I really do need to stop doing that. But that whole it’s just a kiss played over and over in my head, and as I continued my deconstruction I was just like well, where does that end. It’s just a kiss, but also is it just a hug, is it just making out, is it just a blow job – how far does that rabbit hole go? So I actually made some friends in some online communities who were very sex-positive, who had also come out of fundamentalism of various sorts. They pointed me to some good resources on sex, how to do it, how to understand consent and everything, and I finally stilled up enough courage to where I was like well, I really want to explore this on my terms now, so I very cautiously made a few Craigs list ads – this is pre app, I think – and eventually someone responded, and that was really my first sexual experience. She came over here; I was straight up about it – I was like, if nothing else I just want to know someone’s comforting touch. I said if we just cuddle that’s fine, because that’s something I’d never really had as a child or an adult.

S: Oh right.

C: I said, if we just want to enjoy touching each other that’s okay, and if it leads to something from there, fine; if not, fine; this is just something I really want for myself. She responded and one thing led to another, things escalated, and we ended up having my first sexual experience – which was awkward, as you might imagine.

S: Sure.

C: But I remember afterwards just kind of lying there thinking (after she left) okay, so am I supposed to feel different? Am I more mature now? I had a slight panic attack but then I was like, wait a minute. I’m still the same person; I feel a little tired and hungry right now, I could really go for a burger, but I was like, at the end of the day nothing changed. My countenance (as they called it in the cult) my face and eyes didn’t change their color, shape or anything. It was just like okay – it was great, I enjoyed it, but I’m essentially the same person. Maybe that was just sex.

S: And your soul was not irreparably ripped in two.

C: Absolutely.

A: I remember having that feeling too, in that first sexual experience of being like, waiting for the lightning. Just laying there in your post-coital haze and I was like, I feel kind of the same actually, except more relaxed and my hip doesn’t hurt.

[laughter]

A:  But it was a weird feeling, for sure, when Chad just described that I don’t feel that different, my face didn’t change – I definitely felt very similar things.

T: That’s the tragedy of doing this teaching all through a young child’s life; through their adolescence into their young adulthood – it’s completely twisted, so you are expecting that boom to drop. You don’t know what to except, and I have to say you both are so brave to take that risk, and as Sharon pointed out, if you haven’t lived under this you can’t fully appreciate the courage it takes for you guys to take that step out, because in many ways you’re proving it. Will God cast me off? Is this is the sin I’m about to step off the edge of the world for? Waiting for it – and I can so relate and I think Sharon can too, because we both came out of this – and it didn’t happen.

S: We weren’t killed. But you know Tracey, there’s expectation right? We’ve got these two expectations; one is if you do it right, if you do it the way God says, you’re marrying for the kingdom, you come in virginal purity, you’re going to have the best sex of your life. And your husband (now ex-) – what was it he said after he orgasmed inside you for the very first time on your wedding night? What did he say?

T: This is it?

S: Yeah.

A: I think that’s so – I didn’t listen to Virgins and Volcanos until after our first interview series because I wanted to be fresh for it, but I’ve since listened to it before this conversation, because I wanted to know like, how dirty did you guys really mean when you said we’re going to say everything? So I did listen to it, and that was so – I just remember feeling that in my honeymoon, in my first marriage, of like – what’s wrong? Why isn’t God blessing this? Why is this so hard? And being so disappointed in almost every aspect of it – that promise virginal blessing by God was so just not my experience at all.

S: Yeah. And the promise of absolute devastation to your heart and soul, and the ripping of the fiber of your being and how awful it is – I love what Chad has said. You know, a kiss can just be a kiss. A fuck can just be a fuck. It can be something profound and wonderful; it can be something abusive and horrible; or it can just be part of normal humanity. It’s the normalizing that we missed in these mind-fuck controlling systems.

…

T: Well, listeners. We’ve done it again

S: Woohoo us!

T: Or we haven’t done it again. We haven’t finished again.

[laughter]

T: We get going on a topic and it’s just too good to cut short, so instead of trying to rush and squeeze it into one, we’re going to break this into two episodes.

S: Yes we are. We will be back next week to continue this conversation with Abigail and Chad, and trust us folks – things are just starting to get steamy.

T: I don’t know if we can handle steamier! So as always, if you like our show please tell your friends about us; it helps us in the ratings.

S: Yes, subscribe and rate us and check us out on Instagram – Feet of Clay.CultSisters.

T: Yes – there it will lead you to everything that we have in the social media world, including our website. So thanks so much for listening, and we’ll see you next week.

S: Adios.