This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 046 – July 1982 Keith Green Plane Crash – NEW INFO! Did Keith Green Grab the Controls?

July 28^th, 2024

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters!

S: We’re back! What?

[laughter]

T: Sharon, I think we are actually taking a break from our break! I don’t even know what to call this episode now.

S: Oh my god, yes, it’s getting hard to know if we’re coming or going, Tracey. Alright, we gotta not confuse our listeners too much, because in the last episode we said we were going to take a break to work on something very emotionally intense and we might not be back until later in August. And heads up everyone, this is NOT that intense issue that we’re working on. That one is still yet to come; nope, this episode was a last minute thing for sure, because Tracey you fucking texted me 48 hours ago woman, that’s all, saying hey, can we talk about the crash again? So we are pulling this together pretty damn fast. That said, it is stuff, it is a topic that we have thought long and hard about, and we’ve talked a lot about, and actually even more so over this past year. So we’ve been making notes all along the way, and that means we can pull this together quickly, right?

T: Yeah, and again, the main burden falls on you to do the editing part, because I think you and I both can pull talking together pretty well.

S: Oh we can talk, woman, we can talk!

T: We CAN talk. But I was just thinking that it would be a really great idea, and important if we could touch base, I was thinking originally more informally for you and I to talk to each other and to touch base with our listeners, because we’re approaching a very important date to us, Sharon. It’s the anniversary of the plane crash that killed Keith Green which of course, happened on July 28^th, 1982.

S: And we’re going to release this episode on that date. This is just a couple of days before.

T: On that date, and also because it’s the one year anniversary of our episode, number 14 – hard to believe it’s been a year already – where we went on record for the first time to give our vantage point of what it was like to be there during the plane crash and its aftermath, which was definitely a much harder version for many who had previously only been familiar with the story through Melody Green’s book, No Compromise.

S: Yeah, which was a little bit more of a sanitized story, really. So, yeah. Our version’s definitely harder to listen to. I also think it upset a good number of people, but at the same time – I don’t know, I don’t know exactly how to call it, maybe it was like relieving, or affirming or validating. I think it helped others finally really make some sense of things that never really added up, you know in the mythology about Keith, and everything and kind of learning a little bit more, his part in that tragedy. But we are not going to repeat all of that today, so folks if you haven’t already heard that particular episode we recommend going back and listening to it first. Again, that is episode 14.

T: And what better time folks, to catch up on all of our episodes than during our break!

[laughter]

T: Of course, the crash one was a very long episode, so if you really haven’t listened to it, or if you just want to refresh yourself, take some time, break it up into small chunks, and go back and listen to that because we are NOT, Sharon, going to repeat everything from that episode.

S: No. No we’re not. Alright. But Tracey, you said as far as this talking being – informal? Is that what you said?

T: Yeah, informal, like you know, I’d call you up and we’d chit chat.

S: Oh come on!

[laughter]

S: You know me better than that. I mean, as soon as you said let’s do this – I’ve been pulling transcripts, reviewing videos, going through all my own detailed notes and various correspondences, and you know, I’m going to do a really big tease, right here and right now, Tracey.

T: Ooh, a big tease?

S: Yeah.

T: I’m afraid. But before you do the tease, I just have to say, that’s why we have to be on a break, because I was going to try to make this easy on you, Sharon!

[laughter]

S: Ain’t nothing easy! Ain’t nothing easy, girl. Alright so folks, like we said this isn’t just a rehash of stuff we’ve already discussed about the crash. The truth is, I am ready to go on record now about something that has never before been talked about publicly, not even by us last year. Well actually, back when we were recording that episode Tracey, you remember we did discuss some of this stuff we’re going to handle today. But I wound up cutting that part out when I was doing the editing because I felt we needed a little more time to do a little deeper investigation, ask questions, get verification, and now we have done that and we now have that validation and verification. So, I also know some people are going to accuse us – me, mostly, me – of sensationalism, but it does feel really, really important to me to set the record straight, especially as it involves the reputation of the pilot and our friend, Don Burmeister.

T: Ok. And when I wanted to just do an informal talk I didn’t know that we were gonna go where I think you’re gonna go, and I thought you were gonna save that till the end.

S: Yes, we’re going to do it at the end here, but I did want people to know up front.

T: Ok, well folks, stay tuned for what that is. I think Sharon is going to go on record, and I can’t just blame her because I’m right there with her on this. We’ll get into it. She’s got some data points to back up some assertions that she’s going to make.

S: Yep. Some would say, outrageous assertions, but we’ll get there. So before we launch into that new stuff, let’s just do a quick recap on a few of the things from last year’s crash episode, again, number 14. In it we discussed a lot of details about Keith’s role in the crash. What played a part, like his financial indulgence, his ego, he wanted to have these planes, his obviously gross negligence in not complying with the rules and the guidelines and the requirements, and his overall spiritual arrogance. And I think worst of all, his abusive manipulation and coercion of others. We also talked about how after the crash, the four of us who were on what was called “leadership” which was me and my then husband Martin, and Wayne and Kathleen Dillard, we all had immediate anger at Keith. At Keith. Not at Don. Because we all knew in our hearts, and we said it to one another, that Keith had caused this. And in the episode, we also talked about Keith’s desire to get his own pilot licence, and how all of us, we had completely opposed that. In fact, we told him to his face that none of us would ever fly in a plane with him as pilot, because he was a reckless, dangerous, foolish risk taker just when driving cars or the tour bus, and none of us felt really comfortable with him behind the wheel, and there was no way in hell we would ever get on a plane with him as pilot.

T: You know, as you recap that I’m like what else could you say?

[laughter]

T: That is more damning than that, that caused people, the first time around, to have an issue with that episode. But since last year it seems like more and more stories are coming out, or there’ll be references to the Keith Green plane crash than I ever noticed before. It’s like, and I’m going to tell on myself, I had a mustard yellow car in high school, so when you get this outrageous colored car, and you’re like, I’ve never seen these on the road before, then as soon as you get one, you see that car and color everywhere.

S: Oh right, right, it is crazy how that happens.

T: Yeah, so it’s almost like since we went live on our episode on the plane crash, that just more and more stories are coming out, more and more references are coming out, out there. It’s been 42 years Sharon, but there are things we’re coming across, mainly on YouTube, and since we recorded last year Sharon, there are two new videos. Well, one actually new to us, it was recorded I think right a couple of months before we recorded our episode last year, and then one that’s literally brand new. That was the main reason I wanted to get with you, and kind of informally go over what those videos say, and have some conversation about it.

S: Yeah, how’s that working out for ya, Tracey?

[laughter]

T: Of course we’re going to post those links in our show notes.

S: Yep, and the newest one, that was released June 23^rd 2024, so that’s just last month. I think – I don’t remember. Did we first learn about this, like somebody saw it posted on my ex-husband’s Facebook page?

T: Yes, yes it was. Someone had actually sent it to me, it was a video that was posted on your ex’s Facebook page and I can still go in and see it.

S: Yeah I’m blocked, so I can’t.

T: And I think at least one person from our old circles actually thought that your ex produced the video and then posted it.

S: Well, you know, he has wanted to be a movie producer for – what is it, like, I don’t know, 30 plus years now, but he hasn’t quite gotten there yet.

T: Yeah, and then when you actually see the video, it was surprizing that that person thought that, to me. So he did post it, for people to click into it, and he had I think made the first comment on the YouTube video. So I’ll read his comment that he made. “I was the VP of the ministry and worked closely with Keith nearly every day for four years. Keith was an amazing and godly man in so many ways, a child prodigy, and an actual genius, but he was also impulsive and childish at times. Taking risks was a part of his personality that paid off well vocationally but his crossing the line of caution eventually caught up with him that was part of this horrific and avoidable tragedy. Grateful for all I learned with and from him and also grateful to still be alive.”

S: Wow.

T: So, guys, that was Sharon’s ex’s comment on this video.

S: Yep.

T: Of course, I was immediately wondering what he might say, and I read it in context of what we had just published last year, which I’m pretty sure he doesn’t listen to.

[laughter]

S: Probably not.

T: And then I was kind of impressed and surprized, I read it that he corroborates pretty much with the take that we’ve taken in our episode 14. Of course I love that he called out he was the VP of Last Days Ministries instead of I was the elder of Last Days Ministries, because this is a secular video and I think that just sounds a little cultish?

S: Definitely. That is a culty sounding term. Especially now that we’re outside of all that mindfuckery.

T: Correct! I thought it was pretty clever of him. Ok. So he was the Vice President. Did you guys have business cards, and was he – I gotta give them credit, was he actually a Vice President?

S: He was actually a Vice President.

T: Ok.

S: Yeah.

T: Alright, that makes sense, but I was very taken or very much took note of his words impulsive and childish.

S: Yeah, well did you catch that at the end though, of what he wrote? He said, what was it, “grateful to still be alive”. Now some people might think that’s a pretty odd way to finish out a comment, right?

T: Yeah, and for me, I did notice that and I was like, that is the tell. He just said it in that comment. That was the tell, that he also believes Keith was solely responsible for the plane going down.

S: Yeah, it really does speak to that reality, that Keith was a danger to himself and to others. By the way Tracey, I tried to add my own comment on that YouTube video, suggesting people might want to hear the less sanitized version of the crash story – hint, our podcast.

T: Our podcast!

S: But yeah, my comments were removed. Multiple times. Multiple times.

T: Multiple times.

S: Yeah, people definitely want to protect that whitewashed version.

T: Did you post a link? An actual link? Because there are many accounts that just don’t allow links.

S: Well, I did it both ways. I did post it with a link, because yeah, but then I also just posted it with a comment and said you might want to search for, and gave our name. But as far as I can see, all those comments, they’re just gonzo. Maybe they blocked me, but I didn’t try anymore.

T: Maybe they’re like, who is this linkster out there who keeps trying to put links on our – I just made that word up, by the way.

[laughter]

S: That’s great! A linkster. I love that.

T: But I think we definitely can be able to comment. I haven’t tried, and any listeners out there who want to go on once we post the link to this video, feel free to go on and make some comments, but don’t post links.

[laughter]

S: Yes please do, and please don’t. Ok, so obviously my ex did not produce the video. Its title is the TERRIFYING LAST MINUTES OF CHRISTIAN SINGER KEITH GREEN. It’s on this YouTube account called Tragic Stories. They’ve got this series of – well, tragic stories, right.

[laughter]

S: I can’t believe I’m laughing about this. It’s not funny.

T: I know, I know. It’s not. But…

S: But it is. So it’s about 50 short videos of various musicians and other famous people who’ve died. Mostly in plane crashes. They’ve got 65,000 subscribers (I have subscriber envy Tracey, sorry, I do)

T: Aww. That’s a lot of subscribers.

S: It is. And about 19,000 views on this particular video about Keith. Before this, had you ever heard of that channel?

T: No. Absolutely not. So when I went in I actually noticed their contact page, because I was like, who wrote this? Where did this come from? Immediately I saw a disclaimer which I found very interesting, so I’ll just read it directly. It’s Written and Edited by Tragic Stories.

[laughter]

T: It’s not funny, because there are a lot of these tragic stories, but that just was a weird thing to me, that it’s written by Tragic Stories. Then they added this disclaimer: “The clips and pictures used in this video are a mix of paid stock, by attribution, royalty-free, public domain, and other copyright-free sources and are used in accordance with the YouTube Fair Use copyright guidelines and section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act. No copyright infringement is intended. All rights belong to their respective owners. If you are or represent the copyright owner of any materials used in this video and have an issue with the use of said material, please send an email to tragicstoriesyt@gmail.com and we will respond immediately.” So that tells us. Plus we can see from the content that there are pictures that were definitely pulled from content we’re already familiar with. Then they cobbled it together, we could tell from published stories that are already out there, which of course is Melody’s book, the life story of Keith Green, the NTSB reports, the video by the flight safety detectives, the video by taking off with Dan, and Sharon, dare I say, they may have cobbled some of that from our episode, number 14.

S:; Yes, absolutely. They pulled – I mean, there’s numerous almost direct quotes from that crash episode we did. They just changed a few words here or there to stay out of infringement trouble, but you can really hear it when they’re describing – now this part isn’t funny to me – they’re describing the scorched crash site, and kids flip flops and the burned body, and the storm that follows. Yeah. Stuff like that. All in all, this was not a high quality production. It was not high quality information.

T: Not at all.

S: No.

T: Which is why it surprized me that someone thought your ex produced it.

S: Right. He would do a better job.

T: Much better.

S: He would have done a much better job. But my guess is that Tragic Stories channel exists just to get as many views as possible, right, so it’s just trying to generate ad revenue. It felt like an awkward AI script with these obvious errors and awkward phrasing. Just very cheesy, all in all.

T: Yeah. I hadn’t really thought about it being an AI script until you said that, but definitely. Of course the stock photos, they were a particular irritation to me.

S: Yeah.

T: Just because we were so close to it, and they’re trying to reenact what the runway looked like. I’m like no, no, that’s not it.

S: That’s so bad.

T: And then like, the piano and these hands at a piano – it was just – like you said, a bit cheesy. But you know, in a kind of weird, funny and unintentional way this video and the other video we’re going to mention in a few minutes raised some interesting questions. So that was one of the reasons I wanted to get with you and talk through it. Informally, Sharon!

[laughter]

S: Informally. Alright. So the second video is called We Can Learn A Lot From Keith Green’s Plane Crash!!! So this one was from last year. It was published on March 21^st 2023 by James Kaddis. He’s a pastor in Northern California. He’s got 156 subscribers. Oh Tracey, that’s so many!

T: No, not 156. He has 156,000 subscribers.

[laughter]

S: That’s what I meant to say. And this particular video has got about 3,400 views. Now, the idea here is that he was trying to weave this into a spiritual object lesson. This guy loves airplanes and wants to use the crash as an analogy for people to get rid of things in their lives and he’s comparing it to excess weight in the plane, so we want to jettison and get rid of those things that are keeping us from following God as fully as we should. Now, I’m gonna say he clearly has done a good bit of research into the crash itself. He was knowledgeable. The video also starts with him talking about loving every aspect of aviation; how he enjoys reading NTSB reports – that’s kind of me like reading financial statements. I love that kind of shit. He likes investigations – all of it. And he raises some interesting points about the crash, which we will get into shortly.

T: Yeah. And the great thing, or the worst thing, about the YouTube platform is you can see audience feedback right there in the comments, right. So a lot of stuff, when they’re listening to our episodes, they have to leave a review or reach out to us through our website, but you can go right into the episode and look at the comments being left. So that was the other reason I wanted to get together with you and start to share some of the public comments we’ve been able to read and find on these videos. And, share with the audience some of the comments that were left on our video – which is not really a video, but a podcast through the YouTube platform. So on the TERRIFYING AI clickbait video, that’s what we’ll call it – which is clearly made for a secular audience, right, they go through many, many musicians who have also met a terrible end – I found it really interesting to look at those comments which definitely were in stark contrast to the type of comments we get from Christian sites.

S: Mmmm.

T: I’ll explain it as we read some here. There were definitely people who watched that video and immediately noticed the negligence that was palpable as you listened to the story. For me, Sharon, as I’ve thought about this, even recently as we’ve been thinking about this episode, and as this day approached, how much our own ability to process this tragedy at the time was just cut so short by what I called the fillers – YWAM came in and the surrounding ministries, and filled the air with how we should think and how we should feel about this tragedy. I mean, it was just hours when we were being fed with how it was God’s hand in all of this, right?

S: Oh god, yeah.

T: Anyway, as we started out, Sharon, I don’t think there has been a year that has gone by since this 42 years ago, that as this date approaches, that I don’t stop and pause. Some of us even in the old circles will message each other. It’s like, it is a marked day in our lives and truly, the trauma that we all experienced but it got so quickly covered over that we never even had a chance to unpack all of this. All that to say, when I was reading these comments from a secular website, it was relieving for me to see – it’s taken me 42 years to come to grips with the negligence involved. Does that make sense?

S: Mmhmm. Yep, totally.

T: And here, these people watch this short video and they’re like – they’re right there. They’re just right there. This is so negligent, and we couldn’t even say that for years, Sharon.

S: We couldn’t. Yeah, we couldn’t. That is very well said, Tracey. Very well said. Thank you.

T: So I wanted to read a few of those comments, and everyone can go in, we’ll post all of the links but, one: “This is about as reckless and irresponsible as you can get. May those poor children rest in peace.” That one struck me, because like I said, it took us a long time to get there. Another one following behind: “How terribly sad. This is a seemingly preventable accident.”

S: Yes. And then someone else commented on that comment, and said you think? This was as stupid as much as it was sad and tragic.

T: Hmm. Another one. “Singers and planes do not mix. Nobody ever realizes this.”

S: [laughing] oh god. “Let’s stuff a bunch of children into a plane, piloted by a guy who barely knows what he’s doing.”

T: Ugh.

S: But again, we’re going to talk about this at the end.

T: There’s more to that than that.

S: There’s more to that, for sure.

T: The next one: “Did anyone involved in this situation think for more than five seconds about what they were doing?”

S: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, it’s so obvious.

T: So obvious but I have to reiterate. We couldn’t say that for like, 40 years.

S: We couldn’t. Alright, on the second video – this is the one by the Christian pastor, there seems to be mostly positive comments. These are the kind of comments that we are most familiar with when people are talking about Keith Green because they’re mentioning their love for him and for his music, blah de blah de blah. But there were still also a few comments pointin problem. And folks, Tracey and I have wondered if this particular comment is from one of our listeners, referencing us, our podcast. So: “They also say it was probably Keith who pressured this pilot to fly this plane. Last Days had another pilot who was qualified, who apparently wasn’t available for this flight.” And we’ve said it before – that’s because this wasn’t a planned flight. This was just a last minute, hey why the fuck not thing. Anyway. Ok.

T: Yeah. And another one: “Yeah, we can’t push against God’s hand when he is trying to say no. Things can go very wrong, however, God could have intervened and kept Keith there.”

S: Mmhmm.

T: Got a lot of theology there, Sharon.

S: Don’t even want to go there now.

T: And finally, our crash episode, it’s available as a podcast on YouTube, and yes that’s a thing.

S: It’s so weird to me.

T: It’s such a weird thing, but you can comment directly after you listen to it, and here are some comments – honestly Sharon, a few of these on this heavy topic made me laugh out loud. The first one: (this is great, guys. Get ready for this one) “Pilot was a top-notch Marine and an incredible athlete. High temperature that day was 98 degrees. STOL (we’ll get to what that means later) added significant weight carrying capacity. Not buying the narrative. I say sabotage. Keith just published the Catholic Chronicles, which signed his death warrant.”

S: Oh god.

T: End of comment.

S: Alright. Yes on the top notch pilot, yes on the temperature of the day, yes on the STOL (short take off and landing kit), yes on not buying into the narrative, but the Catholics signing a death warrant to have the plane sabotaged? I mean, that’s just…

T: We’re so important Sharon. We were so important. So here’s another one – which, you know, is right up that alley. “I always assumed he was murdered for his stand against abortion.” So you know, I had heard – you probably don’t even know this, because when we first started off with the Instagram and our account, I traded a couple of emails, or a couple of messages with someone who had talked about this conspiracy, and I was like – what?

S: Really?

T: What conspiracy? They hinted around there being either the Catholics were angry or someone was angry, and there was literally sabotage of the plane, so I assume there’s a group of people out there that this is a real thing, and it blew my mind then and it blows my mind now. I’m like, we’re a rag tag commune everybody, first of all, and frankly as we’ve uncovered all the different things that went into this, dammit the truth is bad enough, that we don’t have to come up with these crazy conspiracy theories.

S: No shit. Alright. Another one. “Hmmm, after listening to this; forgive me but the one lady seems bitter and almost like she was in love with Keith and angry that he left too soon.”

T: Wonder who that lady is.

[laughter]

S: “This was all kind of before me, but I’m into his music and believe it is anointed. It points me to Christ. He is as a flawed human as we all are. The lyrics testify that he was aware of his pride and shortcomings. I hope you can find a way to forgive so that your bitterness subsides. Life is brief. Eternity matters. You are tough and brazen so Im sure you wont care what I perceive. The facts are interesting but certainly not surprising. The Lord was not surprised either and nothing happens without his permission. Its sad, but his music still blesses me.”

T: Hmmm.

S: Yeah, I mean we’ve seen this before, right. Anything negative must be that fucking root of bitterness, and of course, God’s in control.

T: God is in control. Yeah. Um, it’s always the go-to. I mean, it was the go-to when we were there at Last Days, it was the go-to in many spheres and especially they do not like it when we say anything that would impugne just the character of Keith Green, but their perception of the character of Keith Green, right? Because in their world, in their paradigm, you cannot be used by God in this anointed way that everyone says if there are any of these flaws, these human flaws. And so if they have been blessed by his music, they’ve got to have the total stamp of approval by God so there’s no room for this. It just doesn’t fit with their internal narrative.

S: Right. Another. “It is dishonest for you to leave out when Keith began to deeply understand God’s grace toward himself and toward others. Your turning from Jesus is the fruit of your bitter perspective. You are too obvious.”

T: Yeah. I actually responded to this comment and may have responded on a message that I got from this same person. They were referencing one of the teaching tapes that went on before Keith died where he talked about learning about grace, and it’s true Keith was softening some of his harder doctrinal edges in those months before the plane went down. I of course, Sharon, would say that he was just trading one set of toxic beliefs for another, as he was linking up more with Loren Cunningham from Youth With A Mission that did have kind of this weird grace in there, but the whole YWAM – that’s a topic for another episode.

S: Another episode!

T: So obviously that softening of some doctrinal issues did not change – let’s see, how did your ex put it? His impulsiveness and his childishness – or another way to put that, having to have his own way.

S: Yeah.

T: That was not changed.

S: Not at all. Not at all. And if you want to believe God’s grace was at work, was it God’s grace that was leading Keith to bully Don into flying the plane that day? I’m sorry. I just get pissed off.

T: Yeah. And then of course the classic quote that we’re all familiar with, so easy to say: “God is always in control. His ways are not our ways.” That’s a real comment folks, and yeah, we’ve heard a crap of that one ourselves.

S: Yeah, and that is really the only way that some people can manage their cognitive dissonance. I mean, what else are they going to do, right? What else? Alright, so here is part of an email from one of the listeners of the podcast itself on the audio platform. They actually replied and sent us an email. Hi Sharon and Tracey. Thank you ladies for sharing your stories. I just found your podcast and just finished the crash episode. I made it through with only a couple of sniffly moments but that fucking grain of wheat verse triggered me back to July of 82 and I began weeping uncontrollably. I was 21, and a huge follower of Keith Green and 2^nd Chapter of Acts. His death did confuse me, but I kept drinking the Kool-Aid for decades. I finally deconstructed last year, but I’m only out as an atheist/secular humanist/skeptic to close friends and some family. I live in Texas, and when I drive East I pass the exit to Lindale and my mind wanders to blurry images of that time. Not anymore. Now I’ll have the crazy, funny voices of Sharon and Tracey in my head and I will smile and be grateful for you, and hope that we meet some day.

T: Ohhh, that message made our day.

S: I know. I know.

T: You can see Sharon, those comments from all those episodes or all those videos run the gamut.

S: They do.

T: Alright. So we did now want to talk about a few of the notable points in that first video – remember that’s the TERRIFYING LAST MINUTES OF CHRISTIAN MUSIC SINGER KEITH GREEN, and as we said there are some things that are absolutely inaccurate and skewed, and some others that are oddly on point.

S: Dare I say, prophetically on point?

[laughter]

T: One thing is this video makes it sound as if Don was the only pilot. But there were two others more experienced with this particular plane, and most people are still amazed when they hear that we had two other pilots, not just one.

S: Right, right. Don and one of the other pilots – they were on staff, and they and their families actually lived in our commune. The third guy, he was local and he would come in to fly as needed.

T: So let’s share some direct quotes from this video. “At one point Keith wanted to fly the planes himself but couldn’t yet.”

S: Yep, yep, yep, Keith definitely wanted to fly those planes.

T: Hmmm. We’re quoting directly from the video itself, not the comments. “On the evening of July 28, 1982, Keith was waiting for Don as he returned in the ministry’s Cessna 182”. That was the smaller, single engine plane.

S: Right.

T: “Which he had flown to Dallas after waking up super early that morning. Keith waited until Don got out of the smaller airplane, and with his persuasive personality convinced him to make another flight with the Smalley family. And even though he was tired and hungry, Don agreed.”

S: So it says, “with his persuasive personality, Keith convinced Don.” Yes. And I can think of a lot of stronger words that would be way, fucking more accurate than just persuasive.

T: Yes. I’m actually interested in the process of how AI compiled all this and spit that out, because yes we would choose different words. And the fatigue and hunger. Of course, if you listened to all of these episodes you’ll know that that was from the ministry-imposed mandatory fasting that we did once a week, and this of course was done the night before this flight.

S: Yeah. “Don had never flown the 414 alone before, since his previous three hours in the left seat were always with another pilot in command.”

T: And this is another confirmation that there were two sets of controls in the front of the plane.

S: Right. “As it turned out, this wasn’t the best time for Don to take his first solo flight in this plane, but Keith wanted to show the Smalley family the ranch from the air, and Don didn’t want to disappoint them.”

T: Such…it’s like a children’s book right?

S: Stupid.

T: So ridiculous. Don didn’t even know the Smalley family, and it wasn’t about not wanting to disappoint them. It was about not disappointing – or, more relevant to Don, not disobeying Keith.

S: Right.

T: “You can imagine how cramped it must have been in a plane with only seven seats.”

S: No shit, Sherlock. I’m glad that this video does point that out. So we’ve got four adults and eight children, and only seven seats. Tracey you know what, I only recently – literally today I remembered something. That seventh seat in that plane – it’s actually the onboard toilet, so it’s like this flat seating area, it’s not like a standard airline seat with a back and everything. Alright, next one. “Don lifted off about 2,000 feet down the runway and climbed at steep angle, but soon Don noticed that something was wrong. The plane struggled to gain altitude, and it is believed that he underestimated the weight of the three small children on board, mistakenly thinking they equalled the weight of one adult.”

T: Wow. Another weird and awkward and odd statement.

S: Yeah. That damned AI, huh.

T: So AI.

S: “Unbeknownst to him the plane was overloaded by 450 pounds, with full fuel tanks, and the center of gravity was nearly five inches off. This imbalance caused the plane to pitch violently up and down. Don fought to control the aircraft, which was dangerously nose high and difficult to manage. As the plane rotated and struggled to climb for another 4,000 feet” (that doesn’t even make sense)…

T: Doesn’t make sense.

S: “the situation grew dire. Just seconds after taking off, the plane hit the tops of the 30 foot trees, just 150 feet beyond the end of the airstrip.”

T: Yeah, that script is so confusing – and it makes so much more sense, thinking about it as an AI script, because it’s contradicting itself. Obviously the editors didn’t catch that. We know that the airstrip was 3,500 feet long, and the trees were actually almost another 2,000 feet past the end of the runway.

S: Right. So it was airborne for a little bit there. Not at all accurate. And yet, Tracey, the parts about the plane pitching violently up and down, and Don fighting to control that dangerous nose high situation – those parts are, I’m thinking, accidentally more on point than that AI program could possibly have imagined. More on that later.

T: Mmhmm.

S: “Inside the cabin, the kids were likely still buzzing with excitement, unaware of the approaching disaster.”

T: And I hate when stories like this try to reenact the last minute emotions based on a total fabrication. I get it, that’s why they’re the terrifying, right, it’s the whole thing to their tragic stories, but this case it’s, I think, extraordinarily insensitive. These are kids and I guess for us it hits closer to home because we knew those kids. The NTSB report said the plane was airborne for about 20-30 seconds and we know Sharon, that it was porpoising violently up and down, up and down. So I’m not going to put thoughts and feelings into what those precious children were feeling. We can imagine that a porpoising plane, not getting airborne, was a cause for great alarm, especially among the adults. So there was no unawareness in that plane. The struggle was actually visible to any onlookers, which we’ll get into.

S: Yeah. Gosh Tracey, I really respect your sensitivity to this. When I heard that part of the video, it was actually the first time I’d stopped to really ponder the questions – what exactly was it like for the people in that plane for those 20-30 seconds? We can only imagine – and it’s impossible to imagine.

T: Yes, and I will just say, as a mother – and you and I weren’t mothers at the time this happened – to me, that’s the most terrifying part of the story; to wonder. That’s why it’s extraordinarily important for me to not want to add to that pain, because that’s really the worst.

S: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve been on planes where there’s a slight drop in altitude, and people literally scream.

T: Mmhmm.

S: We will never know. We will never know what they experienced, and it breaks my heart to think of those kids – the oldest boy, he was 12 years old.

T: Right, I think we all talk about them as kids – that’s a young teen.

S: Yeah, there was definitely no unawareness, for him. Like this is just all good. Anyway. Ugh. Ok. “The high air temperature of 90 degrees Fahrenheit created a high density altitude, causing a lower climb rate, and increasing the risk of stalling, making the plane nearly uncontrollable.” Now, this was both an interesting thing to emphasize about the weather, but also some confusing terminology, and Tracey you took some time and looked into this much more deeply. So, go, woman.

T: Yeah – so I reached out to my own pilot son for context, because I remember specifically when we – he and I, several years ago were going over the NTSB report – that weather was not a factor. So Sharon, if you remember, there was a rumor for a hot minute that there was a storm that actually took the plane out. Well, you don’t need to remember Sharon, because I actually have a newspaper clipping right here.

S: Isn’t that handy of you!

T: Handy! So this is the day after – 7/29/82, and the headline reads “Storm blamed in 15 deaths”, and then the article goes on to say: High winds, and a rash of lightning killed three people and injured two others during thunderstorms and tornadoes that wrecked homes, flooded buildings, and left thousands in the dark in the Northeast.

S: Of Texas. The Northeast of Texas.

T: Of Texas, yes. A religious singer and 11 other people died in a plane crash in a Texas storm.

S: Oh there it is.

T: Yes. Authorities said the Dallas bound plane crashed through a lightning storm in a ball of fire about 500 yards beyond a runway owned by the Last Days Ministries in Texas. The director of the non-denominational ministry, Keith Green, his son and daughter were killed, along with the pilot, another couple and their six children. Green was considered the nation’s top contemporary Christian songwriter and singer.

S: Yeah.

T: Huh. So, back before the days of the kind of communication that we have, we have stories like this that get printed in newspapers and gain legs, right, that people think are true and it’s hard to change. So there was a rumor going around that a storm had taken this plane out, and that was ruled not to be true in the NTSB report. We talk about this storm Sharon, and we know that that storm rolled in after the plane crashed, so it was absolutely not responsible; no lightning responsible. So that’s why, as I was reading in these cases and people kept commenting on the heat, to me that’s weather, and I was like ok, so what is it about the heat and its impact in this. It was definitely a factor. So I asked a pilot close to me, was heat really a factor. And, quote, he answered it was a factor. Density altitude is basically what altitude the plane thinks it’s at, where you’re really at on the earth. This is where performance calculations need to happen, including take off roll – will it be long; climb rate – will it be slower; so hot, humid and heavy are definite headache factors. And then there’s – it gets into some techno stuff. There’s a standard datum plane which is just a benchmark of what a typical day on earth would be like, and then you have to make calculations based on the deviation from those standards. So hot, and humid has to be calculated for, and those who have read the NTSB report will notice there’s a point number four where it says, performance data not understood, and the fault goes to pilot in command. So that’s a lot.

S: Alright. So let’s take a moment, because I’m sure I’m not the only one, I’m sure some listeners are going what the fuck did she just say? So just to make sure, we can break this down and understand it, because you’re saying stuff – yeah. First, when air is hotter and more humid, that makes it more dense.

T: Yes.

S: Ok. And if the air is more dense, does that mean that the plane needs a longer take off and a higher speed at take off?

T: Yes.

S: Ok. And the Aviation industry has picked an arbitrary “standard air density benchmark”. So then pilots need to calculate any differential if the air is thicker than whatever that standard is, and then they would need to potentially increase their take off distance and speed?

T: Well, correct, that’s how I understand it. I can’t comment on arbitrary, but it’s definitely an adopted standard.

S: Ok. International standard I think I remember you saying.

T: Yes.

S: Alright. And then that term “performance data” – that is referring to this particular calculation about air density, and the NTSB report states that Don did not understand performance data?

T: That is how this pilot said that that performance data could get rolled into that failure. And that’s on the NTSB report – there was a failure on understanding performance data.

S: Ok.

T: I’m obviously not a pilot, so we might hear from all the pilots out there.

[laughter]

T: That you guys totally screwed that up! But from my simple brain, this is how I interpret it, right. Hot, heavy air – it gives it additional weight. It’s harder to climb, right. So you already have this hot, heavy air and you have extra weight – you’re going to have a harder time climbing up. Sounds simple to me. And obviously the STOL kit that was on there could have helped this, but it’s hard for me Sharon, when we read this in the NTSB report, because as I’ve been around a few pilots that I’ve gotten close to, this is some basic stuff to flying. So it’s very hard for me to think that a military pilot had no understanding of such performance data. I can remember he just took off and landed a little bit before he did this flight. He’s been flying airplanes out of Texas and out of this portion of Texas successfully. All of which leads me to believe that maybe something else is going on inside the plane, which I think is what I think you’re going to get to.

S: Right. That’s great stuff, Tracey. Not sure I totally understand it, but thank you.

[laughter]

S: It’s getting a little clearer, so thank you for all that digging. Ok, let’s go onto the second video which was, again “We Can Learn A Lot From Keith Green’s Plane Crash”. So at the beginning, the pastor says: “The weather conditions may have contributed to it a little bit, because of how hot it was. The evening had not cooled off, and the air density takes on a massive effect on things like angle of attack, and how an airplane goes in the air.”

T: Exactly what I just explained to you.

S: Exactly.

[laughter]

T: And that’s what made me ask, because I hadn’t really heard that before. Now you have it here, folks.

S: Now we have it. Ok. Next he says: “Did you know that the single greatest contributing to the factor to the death of Keith Green was pilot error and bad pilot judgement?”

T: Yeah, and pilot error and bad judgement were absolutely a huge factor in this. Ugh. Sharon, I still maintain that I think it’s not necessarily the greatest factor in this.

S: Right. Alright, let’s continue.

T: “The pilot should have discerned the fact that the plane was loaded too heavy, the center of gravity on the plane was also wrong, and there are many pilots today that would still fly that model as heavy as it was, as long as the weight distribution was set correctly.”

S: So, remember what he said there, folks, that there are many pilots who could still fly the plane as heavy as it was, and also remember that comment about the weight distribution.

T: Hmm. Another quote: “The way he chose to pull the plane up” – which is referring to Don the pilot – “he started picking up speed on the runway, and made a very common error that lots of rookie pilots will make. When he feels like he needs to lift off pretty quickly instead of increasing his airspeed, what he actually did was while trying to increase his airspeed, he pulled back his elevator which caused the airplane to nose up which actually caused it to stall.”

S: So let’s be very, very clear. Don Burmeister was not a rookie pilot. Not by a long shot. Years and years as an elite military aviator. He was an engineer. He understood these principles beyond a doubt, and his years of experience would make it second nature to him; but do you know who would have been a rookie pilot, sitting there in the cockpit of that plane? Keith Green.

T: Phoooow. Yeah. I was thinking about this. You know Sharon, there’s a comparison. I know I’m from Pennsylvania originally where we had a lot of icy conditions, and I had to learn how to drive. When you have been driving for a while, you know not to slam on the brakes when you hit ice. You know that if you start to slide, you have to turn your wheel towards the direction of travel – and you can’t even think of these things logically. You just learn the feel of it, right. And for those who have never driven on snow or ice, when you start to feel the slip, the most dangerous thing with young drivers is their instinct is to slam on the brakes, right, to stop it, and that only increases the skid and completely sends them out of control. To me, that’s a really good illustration between a rookie on the ice, and someone who has been driving on the ice with experience.

S: Mmhm. Good analogy.

T: Good analogy. Alright. I’m going to continue on with another quote – which was terrible judgement, by the way, because what he should have done is as he realized he wasn’t going to get enough lift, he should have stayed at the same altitude, keeping the angle that the plane was flying in the same direction. Maybe in some cases, slightly nose down – which would be opposite of what you would think – just for a second to pick up enough airspeed and then eventually be able to pull back which would have given him enough time to get over the trees, no problem.

S: Yes. “When the plane was having trouble gaining lift, an experienced pilot would know to keep the nose level and gain speed – or even temporarily slightly nose down. A rookie, however, would panic, and try to pull the nose up away from the ground, which would only increase the stall.”

T: Hmm. Another quote. “The second greatest contributor to that crash was weight. Weight – if he knew that he had that kind of weight on board – which he did, he should have separated the flight. He should have done two flights, or he should have dropped the majority of the fuel that was on the plane.”

S: Ok. Ok – this is logical. I give this guy credit. This is logical. But it also totally misses the point, the context of what the actual situation was that evening. Don would have had no interest in making that flight. It was a stupid joyride. He’s tired. He’s hungry. He knew he didn’t meet the insurance requirements, and he was striving with all his heart, like all of us were, to obey God, and to obey our leaders. This was not about dividing up the passengers, or not dividing them up into two flights, because it’s so important we’ve got to give these people this joyride. No, no. this was Keith insisting that Don do it.

T: Yeah. And I mean, we don’t know what those conversations looked like, but I guess the reason I laughed is I can’t imagine for this little joyride, them dropping fuel for it. I just wanted to add, like I said, I’ve known some young pilots that are starting to get their training, and in their very early days they seem to gain and understand these principles. So it really does blow my mind that someone as skilled as Don Burmeister would have violated all these basic principles.

S: There’s a reason. There’s a reason. There’s a reason.

T: Ok. So, deep breath. And this is for everybody, not just for us. There is a reason, and I think it’s clear that we’re pretty convinced of that reason, and we’re about to discuss openly, exactly what we cut from our episode last year. So we did record some of it, and we cut it out and now we think it’s time to say out loud what a number of others – not just us, but including some highly qualified aviation experts, and some direct eye witnesses that we all have been saying behind closed doors, for a while. So, here we go.

S: Here we go. Alright. Well, why won’t these other people say it out loud? Some have personal loyalty to Keith, and/or Last Days Ministries. Some people worry what other friends would think or say about them if they came forward. Some of them are Christian still, and they don’t want to damage what they perceive to be the work of the kingdom of God.

T: Hmm.

S: In general. It’s just human to want to avoid controversy and emotional drama – that’s totally normal. And some have valid concerns for their own professional reputations if they were to speak out publicly. The last thing I’m going to say – oh my god, this is going on and on, I’m sorry, but last year when we actually recorded an overview of this concept but then decided to edit it out of the 2023 episode, it was because we were coming from an abundance of caution, not wanting to be accused of sensationalism. As I mentioned in the months that followed, I was able to get confirmation from experts and direct witnesses, so I am fully confident to state these things publicly now.

T: Ok. Ok, and I will just add, I think as more of these stories come out, I mean, there is a maligning of Don and I think that is also hard for us to sit back quietly.

S: Oh, I fucking hate that. I hate – oh, pilot error, pilot error, pilot error – I hate that. Ok. Yeah.

T: Ok, so some people are not going to like what you have to say but go for it, Sharon. I’m with you.

S: Ok. Let’s start with this fact. All three of the pilots: Don Burmeister, **, and ** – the three of them together had 100% agreed that Keith should never, never, NEVER be allowed to sit in the front of the planes. Why?

T: That’s crazy. Yeah

S: Why? This is their agreement. Why? Because they understood the danger. Danger of Keith’s impulsivity, Keith’s pushiness, you know he’s constantly trying to talk them into letting him have a go at the handle controls while they’re up in the air.

T: Yeah, a friend of other pilots personally confirmed to us that Keith was very persistent, which goes along with everything that you especially know about Keith.

S: Yeah.

T:  Very persistent to let him try to fly the planes.

S: Yeah.

T: I mean, even AI picked it up as far as his persuasive personality, which was like – ahh yeah.

S: Right. And then there was even just the arrogance; for him to think that he could be smart enough to fly a plane with no training whatsoever, just by having watched these other guys a little bit here and there. I mean, it’s just fucking crazy.

T: Yeah. But you know, even your ex’s comment did say that Keith was a genius, and I can’t comment on that, but if that is the constant feedback he got a lot, or people related to him, I think he probably felt he could.

S: Yeah. Yep. And that God would keep him safe, I’m sure.

T: Yep. Absolutely.

S: Alright. Here’s the next big fact. On this flight, on July 28^th 1982, Keith was sitting up front in the co-pilot seat. This is our outrageous assertion.

T: Which, if true, could cause a lot of outrate indeed.

S: What if Keith was ultimately responsible for the crash, in two ways. Keith, not Don. First, as we discussed last year, he’s using his cult leader status; he’s exerting spiritual manipulation and coercion to get Don to agree to fly a 7 seater plane with 12 people on board.

T: Yeah. That’s pretty much a slam dunk – especially if Don is already tired and hungry at the end of the day, right.

S: Right. Yep. Second – and this is the thus far, never publicly talked about way, in which Keith would bear ultimate responsibility. What if, in those critical seconds after lift off as the plane is straining to gain altitude. Keith Green literally grabbed that second set of controls right in front of him, trying to pull the nose up – which is, as we know, the absolutely wrong thing to do; the total rookie thing to do. He’s fighting, in essence, the pilot Don Burmeister’s correct attempts to keep the nose down in order to gain airspeed.

T: And of course Sharon, there are eye witness statements that say Keith was in the co-pilot chair. They speak of a violent porpoising. Every time this has come up it’s actually used that word – a violent porpoising. Violent. Nose up, then nose down, then nose up, then nose down, then nose up, then nose down. By trying to pull the nose up, in his understandable terror, Keith would have put the plane in an unstable gyration so it couldn’t get enough speed to gain altitude, ultimately causing it to stall, and then as we know, crash beyond the trees in a big ball of fire.

S: Yeah. So for those people who want a little bit more, here’s what we can share. Now, I want to note that we are honoring the privacy and requests of others to not be named, ok. I have had direct correspondence with an aviation expert who spoke with both other pilots, including the one who was the eye witness. This expert totally believes that Keith attempted to wrestle the control of the plane away from Don, but because there’s no evidentiary proof, just lots of circumstantial evidence and the one witness, he cannot publish his conclusion – and I totally respect him for that. I don’t faut this guy at all for that.

T: Yeah, yeah.

S: Also, after conversations with both the other pilots, this same expert came to believe that the cause was not the balance and not the weight, because according to the witness, John Smalley, the heaviest passenger – he was not originally seated in the back of the plane after all.

T: Yes, and reports that John was in the very back – and I don’t know how they corroborated that – could be the result of all sorts of displacement during the crash itself.

S: Right. I mean, the think fucking exploded.

T: Right.

S: Also, in reported conversations with a number of other Cessna 414 pilots, all of them said they could have flown that plane despite it being overweight.

T: Yes. I mean that’s what’s been staggering to hear – and remember, it was equipped with STOL, which is S.T.O.L. and stands for Short Take Off and Landing, and we now have a better understanding of that equipment. I think some of us had mistakenly thought that there were these flaps that the pilot needed to remember to deploy to help and that maybe Don forgot to do that, but that’s not the case because there are different types but basically, the STOL kits are pieces of metal put on the leading edge of the wings to create greater lift at slower speeds.

S: Right. Right – and Tracey this is something else I more recently remembered. Pretty early on after the crash – obviously there’s investigations, there’s all this shit going on – I remember Wayne telling us, leadership, this was me and Martin and Wayne and Kath – he said that there were interviews with a number of experienced 414 pilots and I think he even said a flight simulator, although I’m not 100% certain on that. But anyway, this was the thing of the same overweight and the same balance issue possibility, and the experienced pilots were able to fly the plane under those same conditions without crashing it.

T: Mmhmm. Yeah.

S: So everyone. Bottom line: it is our belief that the violent porpoising – nose up then down, then up, then down, then up, then down – that was the result of Keith in his panic and his arrogance, grabbing the co-pilot controls and trying to pull the nose up while at the same time, Don would push it down to gain the necessary airspeed and lift.

T: Mmmm. Yeah. And if Don is the only one at the controls it absolutely doesn’t make any sense for there to be violent porpoising, right?

S: Right.

T: Mmph. And of course Sharon, you know there’s definitely a strong argument against Don; we do not deny his culpability in this at all. He was the pilot in command.

S: Absolutely.

T: But I have to say in talking with pilots who really understood this – no matter how experienced you are and how great you are, and all these performance data calculations you would have done – they would have mattered not a bit if someone is fighting you for control of the plane.

S: Right. There’s also – for those who have never experienced a high control group, I’m sure they have a hard time understanding the coercive power of the leader.

T: Yes. I mean, he was the pilot and I know that there are – I don’t know if there is more awareness now because if you are a pilot to a high profile celebrity, who tries to put pressure on you to take flights that you do not feel good about, there is more awareness about it is your responsibility to stand up to those strong personalities.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So we know it happens. It doesn’t just happen in these Christian controlled spaces, it happens in other controlled spaces, and it’s absolutely the pilot in control’s responsibility to say no, and to say it’s whatever – we need to divide it into two flights, whatever.

S: But if you think that celebrity is enough of a pressure – you know, a high profile, rich sports champion or rockstar or whatever, yeah there’s that celebrity, but on top of this you’ve got the whole God card, and this idea of being in submission and obedient to God.

T: Yeah, and that one is of course the most difficult for us, because we knew Don’s beautiful spirit, is the only way to describe it, right. He sold everything he had to volunteer his time at Last Days, and Keith was – he was hard to resist. He preached an unquestioning obedience. That’s why we started the school, to take people through that, that you have to obey your leader as thought they are the voice piece of God. And at LDM we did have that culture of deference to leadership. Some people were strong enough to buck up against it, and like I said, I…

S: But, we kicked them out. They got kicked out.

T: We did kick them out. Everyone who knew Keith corroborates – even his best friends, if you listen to interviews by people who are really trying to be favorable, will always kind of couch that he could be – he could be pushy. He could not let things go, right. Also, and this is super important; Keith knew that the insurance policy prohibited Don from being able to solo pilot until he had more hours in the plane. Keith knew that Don wasn’t current. He knew that this flight would be in violation. Keith pressured Don to make a flight, and he pressured Don to let him – this is the one you might know more than me, and this is the one that’s really hard for me if all of the pilots had agreed – Keith pressured Don to let him sit in the co-pilot chair.

S: Right. Oh, holy shit. Oh my god, Tracey. Something has just occurred to me. I’ve got these little chills. I hope this is not the case, but this question just hit my mind. I wonder if there’s any chance at all that Keith was also wanting to do a little bit of showing off for his friends that are just there, right – look at me, I can sort of fly this plane, see, I’m in the co-pilot seat.

T: Ohhh.

S: Think about this. If he really wanted his friends to see the ranch – this is sightseeing, then either DeeDee or John should have had that front seat. That’s a way better view.

T: Ohh yeah.

S: Holy shit.

T: I mean, I had been thinking about clearly there being an element of showing off just in making this flight, and it was so important to take this – I think we even shared it on Instagram, a picture of John Smalley back in early Jesus People days out in California, and Keith is there, so they come up from this kind of rag tag beginning and here he’s visiting Keith’s compound and he has two airplanes and all of this infrastructure and wanting to show off why it was important to even take this flight – not in an evil show off way, I think it’s very human right, look at what I have, but I didn’t think of the element of also wanting to be the pilot at the front of the plane, and how important that would be.

S: Fuck.

T: And maybe Don, the sweetheart, was like, ok…ugh. Yeah.

S: Fuck.

T: Mmm. But you’re right. I think all of that, and again, we understand the humanness of all of these things, but this had a tragic, tragic end.

S: It did. Because if Keith did grab the controls as we and others believe he did, it is understandable. He was in terror, at the point he’s pulling up when he shouldn’t be – yeah. But the reason he even had access to those controls was because he pushed his way into sitting in that co-pilot seat, and that is absolutely inexcusable arrogance.

T: Yeah. And I do want to emphasize we had said that many of us in the circle of Last Days had talked about this behind closed doors. This is not just Sharon and Tracey’s crazy idea, or Sharon’s crazy idea. This is believed by many people who are close to the situation.

S: Yeah. Well, and more to the point Tracey, not just us who were there at Last Days and knew Keith, but aviation experts and the other pilots – they believe it too.

T: Yeah. It makes it all the more tragic and sad, but it also does help with that whole – where was God in all of this.

S: You think it helps? I think it makes it more complicated for people.

T: I don’t know. I think even when I go back to when I was just a young girl, that I turned 19, I may have turned 19 by the time this had happened, and it never occurred to me that God wasn’t in control. It just never occurred to me, that it wasn’t just a really genuine accident, right, accidents happen and no one is culpable.

S: Well, wait a second. Jesus sure as hell didn’t take the wheel here. But Keith Green did.

T: Jesus did not take the wheel. Ok, well I think this is going to be another difficult thing for people to process. Maybe – maybe not. What do you think some of the responses will be?

S: To our outlandish assertion?

T: Well, I don’t find it so outlandish anymore, so…

S: No, me neither actually. The more we talk about it the more it’s like – duh. Duh.

T: Yeah, it is more like that.

S: I think people’s responses are going to vary widely. I think the LDMers and the Keith Green groupies, they’re going to – they’re almost certainly going to want to come at us with their pitchforks, Tracey.

T: Yeah, because I think in general, it’s like ripping off a band aid or poking at a scab. I would say that they would say why. Why do you have to do this, and it’s like, I think this is super important to get to the truth. Lots of time is spent in studying these aircraft crashes to get to truth. I think this is a very viable factor.

S: Yeah. And I think other people listening are hopefully going to weigh the evidence. Yeah it’s circumstantial, for sure, but there’s definitely very significant data points and expert opinions and perhaps people will conclude like we have, that the ugliest truth of this plane crash has been suppressed for decades. Until now.

T: Yep, it’ll be interesting to read the comments on this episode, for sure.

S: For sure. Ok Tracey, Tracey.

T: Yeess…

S: Can we get back to our break now?

[laughter]

T: Back to our break.

S: Alright people, thank you for listening. Rate us, review us…

T: Leave a comment…

[laughter]

S: Yeah we want to see those comments. Alright everybody, we’ll catch you on the other side of our break, which we don’t know when the hell that will be, but we’ll let you know.

T: We’ll let you know so make sure to follow us on Instagram feetofclay.cultsisters for all the latest which feeds into the Facebook story page. So we’ll be letting you know there, so that you don’t miss an episode.

S: Bye bye.