This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 045 – 100,000 Downloads Still Can’t Fucking Save The World!

 

July 10^th, 2024

 

 T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters!

S: Our topic today is…

T: [laughing]

S: Well…

T: You sound so official! Our topic today, folks…

[laughter]

S: Oh my god. Well, it’s actually not a topic, is it.

T: It is not a topic.

S: No. It’s more of a check-in and an update and a look at what’s ahead.

T: Yeah, and a little bit of a celebration Sharon, because – can we just take a moment and say thank you to our listeners because we hit 100,000 downloads!

[sound of applause and cheering]

T: …on July 7^th. Which is just a few days before we’re recording.

S: Oh my god, well it wasn’t a few days ago, it was yesterday. That was yesterday.

[laughter]

T: So yeah, I guess it’s started Sunday night. I was thinking it’s been a few days – you’re right, it’s just yesterday, which is an indication to our listeners that our days are pretty much running into each other.

[laughter]

S: Yeah. What was that scripture – a day is as a thousand years. We’re back there, right.

T: Oh my god, we are back there. We are back there.

S: Well, here’s another thing Tracey, I looked up. We are actually in the top 5% of all podcasts, which is just like, astounding to me. I’m like, really? Somebody said that to me and I’m like, no, that can’t be true, so I got online and I’m poking around and I’m looking at the numbers, and yep – sure enough.

T: Oh my gosh.

S: I know. There’s 4.2 million active podcasts.

T: Oh, that’s a lot of podcasts – which reminds me, when we did the podcasting school there’s one called There’s A Lot of Podcasts, or something like that.

[laughter]

S: Right.

T: Which is true.

S: Yep, so anyway, out of the 4.2 million, we are in the top 5%. That’s pretty humbling actually.

T: It is. And I just want to remind you, and me, as we’ve been thinking about this, I thought over the last couple of days – but it’s just been since yesterday…

[laughter]

T: We had referenced it a little bit in our conversation with Jim, on how you and I got together because we were going to write a book.

S: Mmhmm.

T: We were really trying to form out how we wanted to tell our different stories, and how they dovetail into each other and how they separate and then come together, and would you take a chapter and would I take a chapter, would we do it topically, and we spent some time doing that – and then we didn’t do that.

S: Right.

T: And then I was invited onto I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist with Troy and Brian, who I call Trian. And just their encouragement – so we absolutely want to call them out. I know there’s a part of them that hates that when we do it, but we can’t celebrate this milestone without thanking them again, for their generosity of heart, their encouragement to us. I think at the end of my interview Troy even said oh no, no, don’t write a book, this is a great platform. I was thinking about that, and to be able to write and edit and then send back and forth – I think it would have been a really slow go, so this has been great for us Sharon, just to have a platform that we’ve been able to plan for, some more off the cuff like this one; to be able to go on record and get some of the stories out that we wanted to get out.

S: Yeah. And there are some more very heavy, very intense stories to tell. That’s why – actually, you and I were thinking we were just going to go straight into, alright, now we’ve finished era number one, which was Keith Green Blazing Bright, so we’re going to jump into era number two, but we got a lot of research and organizing to do. In order to do a good job of that, bottom line folks – we’ve really just gotta catch our breath a little bit. I look back on March – we started this whole exhaustive, trying to do a full chronological series that we called The Demise Of Last Days Ministries and you figured you’re going to organize it breaking it up into eras. So with era number one, we went all the way back to the beginning. That even included doing a road trip in April.

T: Yes!

S: Going back to the property – the commune in East Texas.

T: Which was amazing. Yes.

S: And then by the end of May we finished up era number one, and…

T: Huh! Or so we thought, Sharon!

[laughter]

S: Or so we thought. We did our little pivot, for June, we did four episodes on Pride month – and Tracey, with this new stuff we’re being made aware of we’re thinking oh holy shit, are we really finished with era number one, or…

T: Are we finished with era number one. I think we actually said that at one point and I, in these last couple of weeks, have been thinking I think we actually have a bridge from era number one into era number two. So instead of starting off with era number two, I know as we have been broadcasting these era stories, people have been reaching out to us. We’ve been finding more resources. I’ve been hearing more things.

S: Mmhmm.

T: One of the reasons we even started this podcast, one of the reasons I was really wanting to start this podcast is more and more people were going on record with the history of the Jesus Movement.

S: Or the – wait, the whitewashed history.

T: Correct. So it was all of these tales, and then of course people, we referenced the Jesus Revolution movie, that tells these glory days of all these wonderful things when Jesus was just doing all these incredible things, and we said no one’s telling the messy parts. No one’s telling the toxic fallout of that. No one’s telling how this came along and really wrecked people’s self-esteem, so we need to make sure that we’re also going on record and giving that other balance. I was thinking Sharon, you know how we have the wings in our logo, the black wing and the white wing, and it’s like, there are two sides to this story. It’s taken us years to unwind some of that dark part of it. So in this bridge into era number two, there’s still more from fucking era number one that’s there. I think I said before, it’s the goddammed longest era ever, that we want to do justice by, and want to talk about the movers and shakers in the Jesus Movement, and where are they today, where are we today, and that is going to take some time. And frankly – I don’t want to steal your thunder, but also some heart – it’s emotional for us to see where people have ended up and part of the belief system that you and I – never to be humble – would say helped really sink them.

S: Yeah. It’s been really, really tough for me this last week, because we got some news about something that happened in the last couple of years that we hadn’t heard anything about it, and it has just shocked and rocked my world in a surprizing way. I’ve just needed some time to process it.

T: Yep.

S: That’s also on top of the reality of, we’ve got personal lives, you know?

T: What?

S: We’ve got kids…

T: You have a personal life, Sharon?

[laughter]

S: And grandkids – I’ve got a new grandkid, you’ve got one who’s moved near you, and we also have a mutual friend who’s going through a really tough health crisis, and I’ve got another really close friend who’s going through a really tough crisis with her adult daughter. So there’s a lot piling on. I don’t want to shortchange or rush through this bridge, as you’re calling it.

T: Yes.

S: Because I think there’s some really, really important stuff there, and it’s going to be deep, and it’s going to be difficult, and we just need a little space to be able to do it right.

T: And I would just say, our listeners have really great at calling that out to us, so I know listeners completely understand that, because also part of the importance of this podcast is we are authentic selves. I mean, the listeners who are with us have been with us through our sound challenges, they’ve been through me being tinny and you saying oh my gosh, this editing job is really hard, so we have literally birthed this together from when you walked into my living room at the onset of this, before we knew about podcast hosting sites, before we knew about podcast microphones; before we knew about any of this you were like, alright, hook it up, let’s start, and I’m like plugging in – I have this recording device on my computer, sure, let’s go. So listeners, thank you. You have been with us through all of that – and today we’re still like, shit, some of this quality – you’re recording in a different place, may not be professional quality, but that’s what we’re bringing, our authentic selves. And as we’re going through this in our lives, we’re wanting to incorporate this in the stuff we share as well. So that’s why taking the time – and I just want to add this, I know we’re supposed to be making it short and all that – it’s never what we’re good at…

S: [laughing] You’re usually accusing me of being the longwinded one! Ok, keep going.

T: Never what we do well. But you know, when you hear about – well first let me step back and say have always said that when we left, we left hard.  We turned away, we weren’t keeping up with what was happening in Evangelicalism, the players, and it wasn’t until 2013 when I guess a lot of stuff was happening – Bill Gothard was getting called out publicly, the Sovereign Grace lawsuit started happening – I was clueless. Listeners, clueless. My church used to be a part of Sovereign Grace. This was happening in 2013 – I did not know about any of it until 2022 I started learning this. It was rocking my world then, many years later. So believe us when we say we haven’t followed all these people through the years, and as these stories continue to come out, sometimes we’re slow on the uptake – like, wait, what? That happened? And it is emotional, when you’ve walked along with people and you see the fallout, and we all know that we have watched in real time the whole Mike Bickle fallout, and seeing how impactful that has been on the lives that have been going through that. So that’s kind of a little bit what we’re talking about, we’re not going to keep talking in coded language. But obviously there seems to be scandal after scandal after scandal, and when it strikes people that you know and love, it does hurt. It does hurt.

S: Yeah. And so that’s why we’re going to take a little bit of a pause, everyone…

T: A vacation! To celebrate 100,000 downloads! We’re taking a vacation – no, we’re taking a break.

S: Well, we’re taking a break from the recording, but that’s so that we can have the space and the time and the energy to process and then bring you the next chapter – this bridge that we’re talking about. I’m thinking Tracey – I’m hoping we’ll probably be back in August…

[laughter]

T: And listeners, if you have been following along, I think it was the initial podcast where Sharon is I think we’re going to try to do it every two weeks, and then we’re like we’re doing it every week – so I laughed when you said maybe August, ok, how about we just say a day and we shoot for it.

S: No. I’m not going to commit to that. That’ll put too much pressure on me. And you know what – this whole thing though too…alright, I was thinking about that – how do we manage, how do we regulate ourselves in the midst of all these different – I don’t want to say obligations, but priorities. Things that are important to us. People that are important to us. Causes that are important to us. There is a lot – I often say I wish I had multiple concurrent lifetimes, because there is so many fucking things I want to do, and yet you just can’t do it all. And at times I truly feel – I don’t know, like, overload. Not so bad recently, but in years past, more. Almost to the point of like, despair, because there’s so much need and how can I meet it all. Actually you know what Tracey – I may have mentioned this once before – I remember I was still a Christian, but it was long past Last Days and I was on a business trip to Japan, and I’m in this high rise looking out over the streets of Tokyo, and seeing thousands and thousands and thousands of people walking in the streets, and I fell to my knees, just like a gut punch, weeping, because at that point my belief system was all of these people are going to hell to burn for all of eternity. And how can I possibly help or reach them all? So it was this sense of the entire weight of the eternal destination of all these souls on me, and the despair of I can’t possibly do it. So I know that’s an extreme, but I think that a lot of folks that have been in Evangelicalism, especially if you weren’t born into it – if you came into it later in life – we have a sense of wanting to make a difference, of wanting to help people, of wanting to make a huge contribution, and facing our own limitations is sometimes – that’s a challenge. You know, one thing that has given me a lot of freedom, Tracey, in the grand scheme of things, just reminding myself – you know what? I’m really not all that important.

T: Yes!

S: I’m not.

T: I think you’re important. But I say yes to having that realization of that ourselves.

S: Yes, because there’s a freedom and a relief in it, right? Of course, I matter a lot, but to a very small group of people. Our kids, my husband, our grandkids, a circle of close friends, and of course I hope that the general contributions I’ve made in my lifetime, like, with this podcast – I hope – and also my work over the years in the field of animal behavior – I do hope that these things help make life just a little bit better for others, but that whole feeling that weight of oh my gosh, what should be done – it was just pressing on me all the time. So this sense of relief, to know that other than for my family and my closest friends, if I’m not there, someone else is going to pick up the torch, someone else is going to move the needle.

T: Someone else.

S: Right?

T: Yes. I resonate with that so much and that is – I would say, one of the biggest releases that I found when I finally shed a lot of my belief systems, because we were raised with Keith Green’s voice saying you – this generation is responsible for this generations of sinners in the earth.

S: [singing – kind of] Don’t you care, don’t you care, are you gonna let them drown…

T: Right! And the day that it dawned of I am not fucking responsible to save anybody was like, being born again. It was so profound. I was thinking about this today, because I was in a conversation with somebody who was going through a medical crisis that I absolutely cannot fix. Absolutely cannot fix. There is that facing of – you know, when we lived in this, I just need to pray. If I fasted, right, there’s this sense of control that we almost take, or a sense of expectation that God is telling us we need to pick this up to make those changes, and with that is anxiety, and angst – and we can’t do that. There is something very profound about coming to that place of – I was likening it to this person is pushing a boulder up a hill and it’s like, I can’t take that boulder. All I can do is put a hand on it to help in some small way, that’s all I can do out of love, that I want to do, but I can’t fix it. It reminded me of conversations with my sister, she used to get so mad at me because she could sense that from me; I kept trying to fix her. I remember my dad looking at me when I was very young and going, you just can’t save the world. I remember scoffing at that – what do you mean? That’s exactly what Jesus has told me to do. He’s told me to go out and save the world – obviously he’s saving it, but I’m his hands and feet, right? And die trying. Just the baggage that comes with that. So I do think it’s a caution. It’s not why we’re doing this podcast, it’s not why we started it, so I just want to make that very clear…

S: Wait, are you talking about the podcast, or this episode?

T: No, the whole podcast. We did not have grandiose ideas of we are going to change anyone’s thinking about anything. This is our story to tell that we’re getting on record…

S: Weellll…. I gotta say that I still do hope that it sheds light and gives people – I hope it does change some minds. I do. So, sorry.

[laughter]

T: But I think it’s really important to put it into that perspective of there’s a whole fucking lot of podcasts, there’s whole lot of access to a whole lot of stuff out there.

S: That’s right. Yep.

T: And it is not our agenda – right, to cram anything down anyone’s throat or be anything to anyone. We have a story, and we have a part to play and I think in my foundational values now, the whole idea of leave the planet better than you found it. Obviously we have walked through – I liken it to Keith Green’s song Run To The End of The Highway. I ran to the end of the highway and I did not find what I was looking for. I feel like what you and I have is we ran to the end of that fundamentalist belief and we gave 150% and we embraced it and we lived it, and it turned inside on us and we can say that is not the pathway to truth.

S: It is not!

T: That is not the pathway to freedom, so I think what we’re doing in this is hey, we ran that, we ran that hard, and it is not the pathway to truth. As a matter of fact, it has a lot of toxic tentacles.

S: Which is why we’re pressing pause.

T: Yes.

S: Because we’ve gotta go trace and unravel some of those fucking, fucking shit, shit, shit. I’m angry, I’m sad, I’m in shock. So – yeah.

T: So, we thank our listeners for being on this journey of a ride with us. We don’t have it all figured out and we haven’t figured out the end from the beginning. We are telling our stories, and it’s not a burden in that sense. I think what we feel is if you’re going to say and hey every two weeks we’re going to drop this, and then we’re like, we can’t get to it this two weeks – where is that space for us, right? That’s what we’re talking about. Hey, we’re up for an episode and we want to put stuff out there that at some point – because we know that we’re dealing with people who are facing real health crises – we’re not getting any younger, Sharon! So at some point this is our story that we’ve left behind, so we want to make sure we have time to put it together in a coherent way.

S: In a coherent way. And that whole thing of the weight of the world resting on our shoulders. It just popped into my mind -I remember this negotiation tactic that I heard somebody talking about, way back – oh my god, this was in the 80s. Holy shit, Keith might even have been alive, because I remember being in the ranch house hearing this discussed. The idea was that when you’re trying to negotiate, because you want to buy something, or you want to deal or you want somebody to go along with what you’re trying to tell them to do, what you need to tell them is you know, I really, really want this. I mean, I really, REALLY, REALLY want this. But not that much. So I’m thinking about it in terms of, I am really, really important. I am really, REALLY important, and my work is really, REALLY important – but not that much.

T: But not that much.

S: So we can take a break.

T: We can so fucking take a break. And in taking a break I guess I’m also trying to balance it out because I’m thinking oh my god, if I’m listening to this and it’s like they’re going to kill themselves to get an episode out? What the fuck. So that’s exactly what the fuck – we’re not going to kill ourselves to get an episode out, but we also want to be fair as people have been on this journey with us that we communicate effectively on when you can expect to hear from us. So I guess that’s what we’re trying to weave the needle in. I did want to say – because I thought you were going to say well, if you didn’t have this job that takes all your time…and I was like you know, even in that, as far as the self-care, I’m really grateful for my job and I think in the history of what you and I specifically have been through, going through the Quiverfull movement, and staying at home and not in the workplace – any time in history for a single woman to be divorced and a mother of five, to be able to have started a career is phenomenal, and I don’t take that for granted. I am really grateful, because it has afforded us the ability to do things as a healing family that we’ve needed, at times. So even that – yeah, there’s business, and you hit on it so much so this will be the plug for episode 36, especially if people haven’t gone back and listened to a lot of them, but where you really share your heart about becoming a grandmother. That is something that I get to now understand what that is like, because I’ve entered into that stage. It’s a gift. It’s a gift not just in even spending time with these little ones, but watching our children step into those roles, and step into those roles better than when we were in those roles. Just gratitude, right. There’s gratitude for those demands on our lives, there’s gratitude that we even have these relationships that are so important to us, Sharon. That’s part of my self-care in the midst of this – these are demands, but I’m really grateful that we have full lives, and Sharon that I have you to do this with. I know that you’ve been pulling a lot of the weight in this, especially with the editing and making sure we stay on schedule, and looking at statistics that we’re in the top 5%…

[laughter]

T: You are an amazing woman, you have accomplished amazing things for so many and it is an honor for me to be on this journey with you.

S: Oh stop. Stop.

T: No, it’s the truth. It’s the god’s honest truth.

S: So.o..

T: Hey, hey, hey, it’s the truth. And whether we do an episode every two weeks or we drop less than that, I think getting to be able to really go back over, and we’re learning on the fly sometimes, right?

S: No shit.

T: We’re learning as we’re going through this. That has been a gift in and of itself, because we didn’t know that was going to be a part of this.

S: Yes.  It really is.

T: So your self-care – I know with all of that, it’s the same – it’s taking that step of we don’t have to do…

S: We don’t have to save the world, Tracey?

T: We don’t have to save the fucking world.

S: We do not have to save the world.

T: Yep.

S: Yep. Alright. Shall we wrap this thing up?

T: I think we should wrap this thing up.

S: You wanted to talk about you’re updating the website, right?

T: Yes, in the midst of this taking a break, and in the midst of that sense of – so both Sharon and I are in business, so we know when – oh, this should be done better, oh, that should be better, oh this is like, not complete. So we have that and I have had to step back and go hey, I can’t do it all. We can’t have perfect sound, we can’t have the perfect website, we can’t have perfect social media – we’re going to give what we can give and have it be that, but in that, the website has killed me, Sharon. It’s like, I hate it.

S: Really?

T: Not killed me in work, because clearly, it’s been abandoned, but I hate that people go on it and it’s not updated.

S: Oh, I see what you’re saying.

T: Athony Venn-Brown, when he joined us for our episodes, is a master at this. He’s got like, every link and he was like hey, this is not on your link. And I’m like yep, yep, you’re right. So we are in the process of transferring it to another host and we’ve actually hired someone who’s helping us to get all our episodes updated. The new look will be coming in the future, but at least we’re going to make it into a platform that’s easier to keep up, and be updated. We do love your feedback, we love our listeners, we love learning with you, we love the people who come over to our Facebook community and share their stories. Some of the feedback that you guys are sending is amazing, and there is a part of us, we’d love to have more time to highlight that, but we love listening and we’re learning together, and we really appreciate you all.

S: We do.

T: I sound really sappy today, don’t I.

[laughter]

S: I love you Tracey. Also on the website too, I think you’re going to put the transcripts of every episode?

T: They’re all up, Sharon.

S: Are they?

T: Well, let me clarify that. So we’ve had to build it on another host with all of that to then switch it – switch the link and go live. So we’re ready to switch that but we put transcripts of every episode, we’ve updated, so that every episode we’re going to drive traffic that if people want to know about our episodes they can go right there, and that hasn’t been there. And we have a dear, sweet friend who’s been transcribing these for us and so I’ve been sending them to people who have requested them, but now they’ll be able to get them.

S: Ok, and then also like, images or pdfs, or whatever, of some of the written things, like the repentance letter from Keith, and my confession letter, and we’re going to have more stuff – so things that are documents that we refer to will be up on the website too, right?

T: Correct. So that takes time, and we’ve had people that have helped us with it, and that’s a fulltime job in and of itself guys, everybody out there.

S: They know. So that website is confessionsofthecultsisters.com, and our Facebook group that you can request to join is Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community, and we are still working on the details for the October 31^st Halloween party, Flamy Grant concert! Our listeners are invited, it’s going to be at my farm in Ocala Florida, and Tracey – is it ok if I say this now?

T: I don’t know! I don’t know, because listeners – I really don’t know what she’s going to say.

S: Ok, so we just might have another very special guest, because Anthony Venn Brown is talking about making the trip all the way from down under Australia, up to Florida in October, and that would just be so cool, to have him there, part of it. So yeah, that might happen.

T: That would be so cool. And of course, there is a link tree that’s accessible through the Instagram page that has the most up to date information, so for you guys who hate Instagram, it’s really my favorite social media platform so it’s the most up to date information that will have all the links as they get better and more updated. So when the website is up with the transcripts we’ll announce it on Instagram – it does feed into the stories on Facebook, but make sure you follow Instagram cultsisters for all of the latest updates on when new episodes will drop, and some great pictures that go along with all – I mean, if you guys didn’t look at the naked skinny dipping pictures when they were up on Instagram, I’m just saying, you missed out. You missed out.

[laughter]

S: Oh my god. Alright, well, let’s finish all this shameless plugging of ourselves, and just say folks, thank you so much and please do rate us, please do – oh wait, I want to say something else.

T: I do too!

S: While every eye is closed and every head is bowed – unless you’re driving, don’t do it if you’re driving.

T: Yeah, don’t do it if you’re driving.

S: I just want to ask everybody – you know, you gotta have one person in your circle of friends who you think might be amused by, or encouraged by, or helped by some of the topics on our podcasts, so please consider sharing a link with them and help spread the world.

T: Ok. Well I wanted to say one more thing and it wasn’t that. It was thank you when we did put out the call for people to leave a review, there were definitely more reviews left. I had a family member who hasn’t really listened to a lot of our episodes due to the nature of it being so personal, I think, but went on and read all our reviews and called me, and you guys, those a really great reviews! And called out some that were a little funny, especially the steaming vat of rebellious witchery, so we appreciate you guys have put that out there, it definitely helps come up in the search engine. So we can save the world Sharon! That’s actually why we want them to go rate us!

[laughter]

S: Fuck. We gotta save the world after all. Alright, let’s get off of this.

T: Let’s get off of this.

S: We love you guys. Talk next time.

T: Bye.