This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 044 – Closets in Keith Green’s Commune, with former Last Days Ministries Cult Brother Jim York

June 26^th, 2024

 

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters! And for the month of June, if you’ve been paying attention, or been on our Instagram feed, you will know that we’ve taken a little bit of a series side trail.

…

S: Hey everyone – a really quick apology for the somewhat crappy sound quality in this episode. One of our mics – and yep, it was mine, was having a minor malfunction, and we were not aware of it while we were recording. So then when we realized it after the fact – oh my god, there’s just no fucking way we were going to go back and try to redo our entire conversation. So, I hope it’s not too distracting for you – and you know, maybe if we all pray hard enough, maybe all those little audio demons will get cast out before our next episode. Enjoy!

…

S: Yes. It’s a side trail – that’s opposed to going down a rabbit hole, or off on a twiggy tree branch limb on our very tippy toes – wait, wait. Let me do that again. Oh god.

T: [laughing] I kind of liked the tippy toes!

S: You liked the tippy toes?

T: {still laughing] The tippy toes!

S: Ok, we’ll leave it the tippy toes.

T: Yes. So this has been more a kind of mini-series, or a series within a series – or, for you Shakespeare lovers, it’s like a play within a play.

S: Awww. I love it that you bring it back to drama.

T: Of course.

S: Right. So we’ve pressed pause on our main series of The Demise of Last Days Ministries – why, Tracey? Why have we pressed pause?

T: To focus this Pride month on some very important and very long overdue conversations about the part that Last Days Ministries played, and of course the part that Sharon and I played, in helping to crush the very essence of so many gay and lesbian folks in our community – and Sharon, worldwide, through those poisonous pieces of literature, and also referrals and recommendations and teachings that we did that supported conversion therapy, and taught that all you need to do is just deny yourself, press it down, stomp it out really good, in order for you to be acceptable to God.

S: Yeah. So far this month we’ve done a deep dive into that terrible 1984 issue of the Last Days newsletter entitled “I’m Gay, OK?” – and folks, if you haven’t yet listened to those episodes, which we entitled Nope, NOT OK!!, please, please go back and listen to those first, since I know in today’s discussion I’m sure we’re going to reference them from time to time.

T: Yes. And those episodes obviously were quite heavy in part – I know we’ve heard from some listeners on that; a lot because of our responsibility and us going on record just making apologies, so we wanted to follow those episodes up with a fresh interview of one of our very own, a former member of Last Days Ministries – this time a brother, another brother, but he is a gay brother.

S: Yes!

T: Who will be telling his coming of age story, and gosh Sharon, what it was like to be in a Christian commune under that teaching and that mindset. I know that I have been so excited about having him.

S: I know. Me too. I am so, so happy about this conversation today.

T: And through the years, listeners, we have stayed in contact – not regularly weekly contact, but maybe once every year we kind of touch base, and he’s honestly just one of the best of the best of the best. Very, very kind hearted, always attended the reunions that we’ve had, really open hearted, and obviously we are so proud of him for being brave enough to come on our show, and brave you and I, Sharon.

S: I know, and sometimes we are definitely not for the faint of heart – well, maybe I’m mostly not for the faint of heart, because you know, you are just so calm and steady and grounded, Tracey. Dave always says that, he says Tracey is just so tranquil, and she’s just like…

T: Oh, that’s so funny.

S: She’s stable – which I think means I’m not, maybe? I don’t know.

[laughter]

T: Ohh, that’s too funny. One of the things that was burning in my memory that I wanted to ask Jim about is – do you remember Sharon, a couple years – has it been three years now?

S: Maybe four.

T: Oh. So listeners, Sharon and I decided we really wanted to put our story down in a book, so we took a long weekend and went to Florida, and hired a dear friend of hers that sat with us, and we got all our notes out, and then we’re like – we gotta call Jim. We’ve gotta call Jim!

[laughter]

S: We did!

T: And we gotta tell him about this.

S: Yes – ok, wait. Alright – we’re going on and on, so before we do anymore of this reminiscing, let’s introduce him. So everybody, we are so pleased to welcome our friend, our brother, our fellow freedom seeker, Jim – do we say your last name?

J: Yeah, it’s up to you. I’m fine with it.

S: Alright. Jim York! Welcome Jim!

J: Thank you very much. It’s so fun to be here with you guys. This is gonna be great.

T: It is! So Jim, do you remember what I’m talking about? We’re in the back of the car and in true Sharon fashion, she’s like we just gotta call Jim. No heads up, no like hey, um we’re talking to you – we’re going to write a book! And this is our opening sentence I think we had.

J: I totally remember that. That was so fun.

T: You sounded totally caught off guard.

J: Well, I mean, it was like – great. Sharon and Tracey, two of my favorite people. To what do I owe the honor?

S: Aww. That’s great.

T: So I know that one of the first questions I wanted to ask you – because since we’ve gone live with our podcast, we’ve had some more touch bases with you, and one of the things you’d mentioned is that you really wished that you could be recording with us, so that you could be adding your side notes, like, hey I remember that, and giving your point of view. So I guess with that, since you’ve started listening from the beginning, what are your real thoughts Jim, about our podcast?

J: My real…

S: Wait, wait, Jim.

J: Yeah.

S: Jim, you don’t have to just say nice things. You can fucking tell it like it is, the way you see it, ok?

[laughter]

J: You know me well enough Sharon, I think I’ve called you on a couple of things, and gone are you sure this is how you want to say things. You know where I’m going with that – I’m trying to be diplomatic, but I’m going man, maybe not?

S: Mmhmm.

J: So you can take that as you will. Right now we are friends; we are talking amongst friends, and we are letting people sit in on it. So you can ask anything you want, I’ll do my best to answer the way I would answer if there were just the three of us round the fire with a glass of wine.

T: Ohhh. If you’re the sound editor Sharon, crackle the fire, and clink the glasses of wine, because that sounds pretty awesome.

S: You just want to make more work for me, don’t you Tracey.

T: I do. I do.

S: But I love you, so I’ll do it. I’ll do it.

[sounds of crackling fire and wine glasses clinking]

J: And although I can’t include all of our listeners in it, I’ve had those moments with Sharon. We’ve sat around – it wasn’t with wine, I think it was with margueritas, and we’ll leave the details out, but we’ve definitely caught up over time.

S: Oh my god, Jim I just remembered. Didn’t we go skinny dipping up in Minnesota?

J: We did.

T: [laughing hysterically]

S: Oh my gosh. I forgot about that. It was a party, it was like, RK Andersons.

J: It was a completely taco blast. It was for the vet in Minnesota thing.

S: Yeah! I got some nekked pictures there too, but I don’t know where they are.

T: Ohhh. So I have this Instagram account you might now – it’s perfect for nekked pictures.

[laughter]

S: I’ll see what I can find.

J: Ok.

T: So I think we want to bring it back Jim – obviously we’ve got some history together, we have our Last Days timeline and then we have our post- obviously more fun timeline that I’ve obviously been left out of. The skinny dipping part. But if you could kind of backtrack so the audience can get to know you a little bit. What in the hell made you join Last Days Ministries. How did you hear about it, and how old were you – we want all the details.

J: Ok. So I’m from Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was 18 years old. I went through my born again experience at about 16 years old, and I was a total zealot. My church was very much like Last Days in our mentality, and as I grew in the Lord – if you will – Keith Green was just a part of the diet. He was so much a part of the way we think, the way we felt, the philosophy that we adhered to, and as I grew in my enthusiasm, my interest in Last Days grew and all of a sudden Last Days started ICT – the Intensive Christian Training Program. I was in my senior year, I applied, I was accepted – quite a while in advance of my graduating, so I was in line. I already knew I was leaving after graduation. I graduated in 1983, and I was leaving soon after that for the summer ICT of 1983.

T: So the summer of 1983?

J: Right. So between the time I had been accepted to the program and the program, Keith had crashed.

T: Right.

J: So, a lot of things. I didn’t know, but I realized even then, maybe Keith was more central than we realized than the faith was or the goal was. I was afraid Keith being gone meant that the possibility was gone. So I kind of like – ok, now what am I going to do, and they’re like no, no, we’re still going on. Keith is gone but we’re still here. So summer of 83, I graduated in June and by July I was living in East Texas.

T: Wow. So you were, like us, a fresh teenager right out of high school.

J: Yep. Three weeks.

S: Three weeks out. That’s something Tracey, I’ve become more and more aware of – how bad that is. How bad it is that we, and so many other ministries are just like, preying on young people that don’t even know what the fuck life is all about yet, and make perfect, perfect cult followers. Perfect.

T: Very, very perfect cult followers.

J: I’ll say you fit who I was striving to become. As a young man, at 16 when I became born again, I had felt probably the first signs of being homosexual. When I did, I had been told by all my elders, church people, parents, whatever, what being gay meant. Everything I was told was negative, and I had also seen examples of the gay lifestyle that to me were media driven. They were the leather guys and the drag queens, and the one thing I knew was, I’m not them so I don’t want to be that. So when the born again experience came up and I delved into the church and faith, and Last Days was like, a little bit the extreme of that; the devout, the zealous, it fit with everything I wanted to be, because I didn’t want to be the other.

T: Mmm. That’s really, really important. Did you feel safe or brave enough to actually talk to your elders in Minnesota, that you actually had some same sex attraction, or is that something that you kind of were just more watching, and making these decisions?

J: Never. I would have never brought it up. I was so mortified at the thought at that point in my life that that could not be who I am, so why would I bring it up.

S: Hmmm.

J: I hope we get the chance later to talk about it, but it wasn’t until at Last Days that I finally felt I had a couple of people I trusted enough to bring it up to, and how that went.

T: We will definitely get into that. I think before we get down into that end part of the story, I’m very curious, fresh out of high school, you’ve listened to Keith Green, I assume you’ve been reading the newsletter – what were your initial thoughts when you arrived at ICT, and those first days of orientation and working at the ministry. Anything that sticks out in your mind?

J: The first days I remember being welcomed, kind of being overwhelmed, feeling like oh my god, I’ve arrived at Mecca, a little bit. That’s the way it was played off. Not because they wanted to be Mecca or be seen as Mecca, but that’s how a lot of people viewed them.

T: Yep.

J: So you were in awe – I remember walking in as an invite to one of the first house meetings, which was the meeting with everyone right before dinner, and seeing one of the leadership just break down in tears and I’m like, oh my god, I’m going to hell. [laughing] The spirituality was so overwhelming that I was like, how am I ever going to measure up to this, but it made it all the more – I’m in the right place, this is who I have to become, this is who I am, this is going to help me not be – THAT.

S: Mmmm.

T: So, speaking of open confessions – well, first of all, I want to clarify, did you get invited as a student to the staff house meeting before dinner?

J: I don’t know. I think there were both. I think there were staff meetings and there were open meetings, and this was probably one of the open meetings.

T: Ok.

J: There were kind of six leadership, and one of the people leading – that was Martin, he was one who, when something moved him he was prone to tears, and I’m like oh my god, I just need to confess. I don’t know what it is.

T: And that’s my question. We have taken all the ICT classes through an openness and brokenness session. Sometimes it was led by Kalafi Moala, sometimes by Bruce Thompson, and sometimes via video. Do you remember if you had that week in ICT with the openness and brokenness, with the public confession that went on for hours?

J: Yes. With Kalafi Moala.

T: So did you remember if you confessed anything?

J: I did not.

T: Are you serious?

J: There was no way in hell I was going to confess.

T: Oh my god. So listeners, I just want to tell you that to sit through…

S: I’m speechless. I’m actually kind of speechless right now. I’m thinking, how the fuck did we let him stay if he didn’t confess?

T: How DID we let him stay? That week was really intense, and as a former staff member of ICT, we really did notice those who didn’t.

J: Really.

T: And usually there was a tap on the shoulder of what’s God doing with you, because obviously it wasn’t compulsory…

J: Oh, I did get the tap on the shoulder afterwards.

T: Ok.

[laughter]

J: I just didn’t confess in public.

T: Do you mind saying who your group leader was?

J: ****

T: Ohhh. That’s why.

J: Yep.

S: Ohh, I love ****.

J: I would love to catch up with him. What a lovely man.

S: Totally.

T: Yes. He was one of the more gentle, loving, kind souls, so good for you.

J: I was terrified, and he was the most approachable, safe person I felt I could have ever approached. He remained that all the way through our talk. He never disappointed my trust in him.

S: Were you actually confessing same sex attraction, or other things?

J: In that conversation, we walked up and down the runway, and I talked about same sex attraction for the first time in my life, to anyone.

T: And that was why you were still in ICT?

J: It was after ICT. I was first session staff.

T: Ok. So you – in your ICT, just going back in the chronological order here – in your ICT, you never confessed publicly, and then you did not tell your group leader at that time that you knew you were struggling.

J: No.

T: So who was your group leader in ICT?

J: ****. Can you imagine telling **** that?

T: Ok, that makes so much more sense. Ok, we’re going to probably backtrack that a little bit. So in your ICT, during the openness and brokenness session, you got a tap on the shoulder – it was not from ****.

J: No,

T: In ICT we did really put more pressure on people who didn’t, and **** definitely – I’m surprized that he didn’t try to get you to say something.

J: He may have. He was also a gentle soul. He was very persuasive, and he was very zealous, and at the same time he was also very approachable – for me. I found I was intimidated a little bit by his position of authority, but he was always somebody who was like – look, if I need to talk I know he’s not going to just bash me with rocks.

T: Right. But you never felt safe enough to say that to him.

J: No. No. God, no.

T: Ok.

S: And I’m gonna say – I know we’ll talk more about this later, but the person you did confess to, as you walked that runway Jim.

J: Yep.

S: I’ve always thought that he probably also had same sex attraction, because he was just such a gentle, quiet – no, not because of that. It’s not because he was…

T: I was gonna say…

S: It was…

J: I understand what you’re saying.

S: It was just something. There was something there – what a beautiful, kind – there was just something there, I think.

J: I understand that, because it crossed my mind too, and I’m not going to attribute anything to what I felt, but he had an approachableness and gentleness that was admirable and made him approachable, and I would never have thought to approach anybody else the way I felt **** – can I please talk to you, there’s something I need to say out loud, and I trust you. And he proved himself worthy of that trust.

T: Which is awesome. Very, very awesome.

J: Yep.

T: So back into ICT – I’m really stunned that you didn’t get up in front of everybody in the openness and brokenness session…

S: We forgive you brother, we forgive you.

J: Dodged that bullet.

T: So now you have to do this podcast and tell us everything. [laughing] So, you’re still fresh out of high school, it’s a ten week session – for those listeners who may not know, it’s a ten week intensive Christian training, then there is a selection process for term two, and every body who wants to stay for term two isn’t necessarily allowed to stay, but you never thought you should go back home – what made you think you wanted to stay and work there, and were there any issues with you being accepted into term two?

J: My issues I don’t think were anything other than waiting to see what the leadership said. I was so zealous for the opportunity, to me it was no different than joining a mission, which was always kind of my thought, even in high school. When the opportunity was there I was like, this is my route, this is my path. So I waited to hear and when it happened, it just seemed in place.

T: Woohoo, well we were glad you did.

J: Term two is ten weeks also, and during that time you’re under scrutiny of course, to whoever your new group leader is. I think at that point it was **** – we’ve already discussed him. He seemed to think that I was staff quality and I got promoted to full staff.

T: You have to tell us about the jobs you did. Tell us about living in the brothers’ dorm. Tell us your best stories.

J: Alright. So before I was ever at Last Days, I was part of an Evangelical church in Minneapolis that was televised. We had Sunday morning on TV, and I was one of the cameramen. So that provided a skillset that fit right in with where LDM was going. They were starting to record audio and video, and they wanted a camera crew of three cameras going any time we had Leonard Ravenhill, or Winkie, or Kalafi Moala, or any of these people. So we were in, and the fact that they had a cameraman who knew cameras, and knew headsets and the whole bit – I was no **** – he was the dude, I can’t even remember his last name.

T: We can bleep it out but it was ****, and I don’t know if he had prior training or not, or how many people were trained on the job.

J: Yeah, and he was a fit. Him and ****. So they were that, but I was a good cameraman, so I fit. That was my in, so when I came out of ICT, it was a natural fit. It was like here, we’ve got a kid who’s enthusiastic, he wants to stay, he’s got the skills we want.

T: Yeah! Skills.

J: It was a good fit.

T: That’s great. I had posted on my Instagram a little wedding video clip of when I got married there, because as one of the wedding gifts they film our weddings, and somebody had actually commented on the three camera angles. They were like wow, this is some serious video taping because of the different angles.

J: I believe I was one of your cameramen.

T: Oh, god bless you, I’m so sorry!

S: Did you get the dancing? Did you get all the dancers, Jim?

J: I don’t remember. I was one of three cameramen, so I figure – I assume I was there.

S: Right.

T: So they were quite the productions.

J: If we get into it, we’ll have to knock out some names, we’ll have to talk about other weddings we’ve all attended. But weddings were not incidental. They were significant in our things, right from the video to who attended, to how they were proposed.

S: So I’m going to jump to a question I have that was going to be later, but since you bring up weddings – did you ever feel any kind of pressure to be finding a sister to court and marry?

J: Yes. But I had already found her. It was funny, because we had dated in high school. She was the pastor’s daughter of the 3000 member Evangelical church that I attended for a couple of years before ICT, and a year after I attended ICT, her and another very good friend of ours both went through ICT following me. It was  completely with the understanding that this is to continue that dating and possibility of marriage.

T: Oh my god.

S: I had no idea Jim. Wow.

J: It was definitely propagated at ICT. It would have never been authorized, except that this was well in its way before I was there, so a year after I’ve finished ICT and I’m on staff, and she finished her ICT, it was assumed that we were going to delve into a special relationship.

T: A special relationship. So did you write to her from your ICT and encourage her to go?

J: I did. And this other friend of ours. But with her I encouraged her to come to ICT. She was eager, she saw it as part of our future, so a year after I finished ICT and now I’m on staff, she came and went through ICT, and afterwards she was applying to be staff. Her and I went for a walk, and I said I think we should talk, and she thought I was going to propose.

T: Oh Jim.

J: And I told her I didn’t think we were marriage material.

T: [gasps]

S: Now, why did you say that? Was that because you were becoming more aware of not having an attraction to women?

J: Truly I can’t – I don’t know, I have no idea. But I just knew that she was ready for something that I was not. She saw it as something that I did not, and I needed to be honest. So aside from even feeling sometimes this was what God would have wanted for me, I was like, I just can’t move forward.

T: You couldn’t do it. Well, we applaud you on that, because a lot people still pushed through that, so we applaud you for being able to put the brakes on that. But I have some questions about that. So obviously you’re from Minnesota, and one of the leaders of the school was also from Minnesota, and it does seem like we got a large percentage of people from Minnesota, so did you have to put in a good word so they would accept her? By this time we’re getting hundreds of applications, and I didn’t know if your recommendation helped put her at the top of the pile?

J: I have no idea. I know I did submit a letter of it, and I was afraid for both – would it promote her eligibility, or would it deter from her eligibility. I didn’t know. I had no idea the way leadership thought.

T: Yeah, and it could go either way. It depends, but obviously it sounds like you were doing a great job in your staff job, and everybody loved you Jim. That was one of my earlier questions I wanted to ask. Do you have any memories, specifically of Sharon and I at Last Days when you either first met us, or crossed paths with us?

J: I do, actually. Tracey, to me you were very peer levelled. You were leadership to me, and I respected that, but you were approachable. You were normal. You were natural. You were all these things. Sharon, you were a little bit of a goddess, in my mind.

[Sharon and Tracey are laughing hysterically]

J: And not because of anything you did, but just because of who you were.

T: She was an ELDER’s wife, guys!

J: She was an elder’s wife, exactly. The thing that was my inroad with Sharon, and it became so natural so quickly, was the horses. As soon as I was welcomed into the horse circle and there were a few of my closest friends while we were there that were horse people and I soon got trained into saddling and brushing, and taking people on rides, and knowing the trails and that stuff. Sharon and I, we were fine. She was still one step out of my reach, but let me tell you, the progression of our friendship after Last Days was exponential. You can get into that however you want, but I will remember after Last Days, and as I was figuring out some of the places and times and manners in which I was uninvited, Sharon was the one who said no you’re not, you are completely invited, you are absolutely invited.

T: Yay. So Sharon, do you remember Jim, or what are your first memories of Jim?

S: Oh, yeah absolutely, I mean, Jim was this really nice, smart, sweet, cute, fun guy, hanging with our crowd. I guess we had kind of a sub-cult, right, the horse people? I guess we were our own little group.

T: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.

J: There was a little bit. If you weren’t in the horse crowd, it was like yeah we love you, but you’re not one of us.

T: Yeah, and it was a lot of work, so I don’t know Sharon if that was your own way of hey, I get all this help with the horses.

S: No, actually the horses didn’t require – well, I don’t know. Did they require that much?

J: No.

T: I don’t know. People always seemed like they were washing – it seemed like a lot of work to me.

J: I will tell you, my path coming into the horses was not because of Sharon, or because of the horses in total. We had one friend who was – she owned a couple of horses, she became part of  the ministry, she needed to go do something personal outside of the ministry, and she asked me – in good trust – would you take care of my horses for a couple of years while I figure out who I am and what I am. And I said yes.

S: And I’m going to pause for one moment. That was ****.

J: Yes.

S: I actually witnessed to her. She was a local living there in Texas. I led her to the Lord. I brought her to Last Days.

J: Oh man.

S: She was lesbian.

J: Absolutely.

S: But never admitted it to herself.

J: No.

S: Never admitted it to others, and got caught up in that witch hunt, witch trial thing about emotional dependency, which we’ll talk about in a few minutes. I think we shipped her off.

J: To Daystar.

S: I say we, I don’t think it was me, but the leadership or whatever, shipped her off – yeah, to this other ministry that was for flunkies who couldn’t deal with their sin, or something like that, and I did talk with her later about possibly leading Last Days when the whole thing was collapsing. Then years later, probably in 2010-ish, we met up. She came into town and we met up, and I asked her straight out, and it makes me so, so sad, because culturally and religiously and buying into the whole thing she’s like, I just can’t go there, you know? I mean, she could say yes, I am attracted to women, but that’s evil and wrong, and I can’t do that, and my heart just broke for her all over again.

T: Wow. I of course had interactions in the school. I don’t remember if I was her first term group leader, but if not, I was still the leader of the women so I had some times that I would do counselling with people that weren’t directly in my group. I know I’ve mentioned before that people who would come and sit through Leonard Ravenhill’s teachings, and just how wrecked they would be, and that’s one that stands out in my mind of a really agonizing, wrestling with how do I bridge these things that Leonard Ravenhill is saying, and how do I bridge kind of the father heart of God. The two do not seem to go together, and of course this woman was brilliant. She had a really sharp mind, and I am so sad that the cognitive dissonance she was seeing – because it was there – then the counselling we gave would be trying to fit one into the other and saying no, no, no, it’s this way, and it’s that way. Part of the real harm that we did as people were having those wrestling questions, and then we were continuing to hammer the – what did we call them in our last episode, the little bible boxes Sharon. We really hammered people back into those bible boxes.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So when you were staying for a second term, how did you afford ICT, how did you sustain yourself through a second term, and how long was it before you started getting a stipend?

J: I think we started getting a stipend in second term. It was not very much. It was I think $8 a week, if I remember right. I remember there was enough for like, deodorant and toothpaste, and about every month you could go to Chucky Cheeses for pizza with a group – if you had enough to pitch in on gas, too.

S: Mmm.

T: Right. Well, 83 things were – I don’t know, maybe changing, but I’m pretty sure we didn’t pay second termers. I’m pretty sure we only paid interns and then staff.

J: I don’t know. I don’t remember the differential between the terms. I think when I got to whatever staff was, it went up to about $20 a week.

S: Was that a week, or a month?

J: Man, I don’t know but I remember I was grateful for it. I felt I’d hit the jackpot.

T: Yeah, I think it was monthly, because I don’t think we paid that much a week.

J: Yeah, it was like suddenly I could afford that extra half a glass of orange juice.

[laughter]

S: Right!

T: Did you keep a card and tally with that. Were you really faithful?

J: Actually, that was one of my confessions to God every day, I think. I stole orange juice.

T: I’m just like – obviously this topic comes up because I have this bitterness that resides deep within me. I was so fucking faithful with that card.

[laughter]

J: Oh my god.

T: That haunted me so much, and I should say I wasn’t faithful – I was so guilty for – I would then tally. I’d add four tallies, I’d add six tallies, because I felt so guilty. And you just never even tallied your orange juice, Jim?

J: Nope, I didn’t. I remember – I’m not going to tell you my biggest guilt feelings during my time at Last Days, but I will tell you one of them was having my headphones on for my Walkman, and listening to Whitney Hughes sing when **** was in the bed next to me, going if he knew what I was listening to, he’d judge me. And not just Whitney Hughes, Anne Murray.

T: Oooh Jim.

J: I was doomed.

S: Oh, you poor, poor soul. Wait a second though, I have to go back to you’re not going to tell us the thing you felt most guilty? This is Confessions of the Cult Sisters, Jim! Confession time!

T: And cult brother now. Yeah.

J: Masturbation.

S: Ok! Thank you brother. That was all of us, right?

J: All of us. Except, no! I thought you said you didn’t.

T: It was not me! Not me Sharon.

S: Well I said all of us collectively. It wasn’t me either.

J: Girls don’t always delve. I think all guys do.

S: Of course!

J: I hope.

T: We had covered this in our purity culture so this is obviously enquiring minds. One of the questions I asked was we would be at the house meeting and all these brothers would get up and confess, and I’m like, how are they achieving this when they’re in three high bunks with another brother so close, they’re not allowed to be in the shower for hardly any time, and it’s not private, so how is this happening?

J: Where there’s a will.

S: Did you have a box of Kleenex?

J: There were limits on showers; there was no limit on laundry.

[laughter]

S: Ok!! Socks and underwear. I get it now.

[laughter]

S: That’s great!

T: Ok, some people might turn us off at this point but I have to ask –

J: So sorry guys.

T: I have to ask, did you ever hear somebody else in the dorm rooms?

J: Yes.

T: Ok. And what did you guys do when you – was it something you just accepted?

J: I mean, depending on if you felt like it was your place, you could sometimes approach them and go, hey, is this a thing? I never did. I was like, oh, this is my thing, I’m not going to say nothing.

[laughter]

S: Oh my gosh. Cos these were three high bunkbeds in very close proximity.

T: Very close proximity!

S: It’s like, even if you could control your breathing and your groaning, I mean…

J: Oh, let me tell you…

S: Simply the rhythmic slapping…

T: There’s so much that would be really hard to hide.

J: It’s amazing how little you can get off on. I’m sorry.

[laughter]

T: Enquiring mind. That was my question from our purity culture episode. I was like, I don’t know how this is happening to the scale that it’s happening.

J: To this day I think I have sleep apnoea because of it.

S: Oh my god. So we definitely experienced suppression of any of our impure thoughts, but it’s just biology. I think, for the most part – stereotyping, of course –

J: Sure.

S: But men are going to have a much stronger sex drive, and be much more – yeah, compared to the average woman, so you guys had it harder (hahaha) than we did.

J: Ha ha ha.

S: So, tell us if you will, a little bit of that coming of age. If you were confessing to the leader there that you were feeling same sex attraction, what was that like for you to begin to acknowledge it, or notice it, or attempt to suppress it? What was that like for you there at Last Days?

J: Well, temptation thoughts coming into your head were considered – we all knew, and were all taught from the beginning, tempting thoughts are going to come into your head, and it’s what you do with them.

T: Right.

J: So to me it was taught, a little bit no different than if you were going to steal half a glass of orange juice.

[laughter]

T: So true.

J: Or take a seven minute shower. Or whatever the point was. So I understood that I didn’t have to differentiate. I knew that was not true and not sincere; I realized that certain sins were considered differently, but as a coming of age there was not many people I would have seen as leadership I would have approached. My group leader after, for example, I wanted to approach on a couple of other things, and they were benign issues – I thought.

S: Who was that, Jim?

J: **** – who I probably would have never approached for the same things, but when I did, I knew to not expect anything, and to not approach him except for benign permission. And he did not disappoint me.

S: Ok. Yeah.

J: This person let me know that everything was under the scrutiny of God, and I should examine my heart for even questioning; for asking permission for things, and I was like ok, so my response to that was if I don’t ask permission, they can’t say no.

T: Ah.

J: But that was like, accepting no as the default. So in some little way it was my own sense of control. They can’t tell me no if I don’t ask.

S: Mmm. Yeah. So Jim, do you remember when we published that magazine with the cover article I’m Gay, Ok?

J: Yes.

S: What were your thoughts or emotions or anything on that topic, as it was being printed, after it was sent out. What was going on for you?

J: That was in 84, correct?

S: Mmhmm.

J: Yeah. I do remember it a lot, because I remembered thinking on some level I felt a little bit of – I get what people struggle with, but it’s not me. I’ve battled that. It’s not me. It’s not me. At the same time, my high school girlfriend, and this dear friend of mine, were coming to ICT, and these articles were coming out and they were affecting a friend of mine who was going through all of this later than me. So yeah, these articles were vivid to me when they came out, but they did not feel personal. I was able to – is the word abjectify, the content. It wasn’t me. When I came out, I remembered – I think I mentioned to you already – when you come out as gay, you’re told what to think about people who are gay, and it’s negative and bad, and then you go to your examples that you see publicly in the media, and they were leather guys and drag queens, and I was like well I’m not that, so I must not be gay. So what do I do with that? As those articles came out, to me they were talking about other people than me. They weren’t talking about somebody who found myself inclined towards a person of the same sex to share my life with.

T: So in the article that we bring out in our previous series on this, there is that box that it’s not a sin if you have thoughts as long as you don’t act on them. So you, in some portion of you, made peace with I just will never act on these?

J: Yes.

T: Ok.

J: And that was true. And then I started to meet other people that I knew their struggle was the same thing, and in some ways I felt supported in my fighting those feelings, and in other ways I was like – wait a minute, why am I doing this?

S: Was that there at Last Days, you’re talking about?

J: Yes. Yes, we had a surrounding community of very prominent Christian communities, other than just Last Days. If I were to name them, you’d recognize them all, and one of my dearest friends was a musician in another ministry, and as I learned of his struggle, I sought support in a bond with him in that, and he rejected me face front, going if this is your thing then we cannot maintain a friendship.

T: Can you elaborate on why you think that was?

J: He had left a book out. I think he’d left it deliberately, and it was about him struggling with the homosexual whole thing. It was signed by the author, and signed to him particularly, so it was kind of his way, I think, of telling me – hey, me too. Or if this is you, I’m letting you know it’s me, too. So when I actually brought it up it was just too much for him to talk about.

T: Too much, and too fearful, probably.

J: Yep. He was like, look – if you’re going to insist on talking about this then I can’t be friends.

S: Mmmm.

T: Was that really hurtful?

J: It was really hurtful. Our friendship was genuine. There were many times along the ways when you’d get genuine friendships, and then because of one factor that got thrown into the mix people were like, oh this is the gay thing, and you’re like no, not at all. I thought we had a genuine friendship. I have so many brothers that are stars of my period at Last Days, and they were in no ways lustful or sexual, and yet some of the teachings made us distrust or have a sense of shame about our friendship.

T: Yeah, that’s a lot to navigate.

S: Yeah, it is. It’s really sad because we – we kind of vilified close human friendships, emotional bonds, in a way that was just – oh my god, it was just fucked up. It was bad.

J: So much so.

T: Yeah, it is. I was going to ask you as far as – in our purity culture series we talked about we’re there right out of high school, and we really are coming of age, as adults. As human adults we’re all coming of age, and with that there is an awakening of our sexuality. I know that for you, as you’re there longer and as you’re coming into manhood, did you notice a shift where maybe it was easier to deny and it was becoming more of a struggle, or did you keep it on lock so well throughout your time there?

J: I think through my time at Last Days it was probably on lock. I was just not going to let it go there. I was going to shut it down. I know brothers who, to this day, they would say nope, I’m just not going to allow that emotion to surface. For me, I will let you know, there was a process and it was leaving Last Days, and in my leaving Last Days and the time following it really helped me kind of go, you know, I don’t need to set everything I was told previously be the standard for how I measure who I am now, or what it means now, to me.

S: Mmm.

J: At Last Days it was really hard, because there were the few people you thought you could open up to and turn to and go can I talk frankly to you, can I talk to you about anything and not feel like you’re going to judge me, but you’re going to support me. They were rare and few between. I think everybody had that goal for themselves, to be that friend and that brother and that person, but the truth was is insecurity makes you not be able to do that, so you’re like, no, no, that’s not cool, you’re not – so you learn very quickly to self-protect and not open up.

S: Mmhmm. So it sounds like with being able to kind of lock that down for yourself, and wall it off, did you have – I mean, you guys are sharing dorms and bathrooms and everything else – let’s face it. There’s a bunch of young guys, and some of them Jim, were definitely hot. Definitely hot. But you were able to lock it down enough that you didn’t struggle with like, wandering eyes, or what we would have called lustful thoughts towards specific individuals?

J: You want me to destabilize the time at Last Days for every other guy that might be listening to this?

[laughter]

J: Ok, let’s go there. No, of course not. I mean, as a young man who was starting to figure out my attraction to men and the male physique, there’s a time in life …

[squeaking sound in background]

S: Wait, what toy is that in the background? Is that your doggie playing with a toy?

J: That’s my dog. Sorry.

S: That’s great, keep going.

J: Ok. There’s a time when denial – you’re just going to say no I’m going to shut that down, I’m not going to think about it, and that’s not what it is. It’s comparison. I’m looking at other men’s bodies, kind of comparing my body to them. I’m not like them. I’m not that physique. I’m not that big. I’m not that hairy. Whatever the comparison might be. So you can chalk it up to that, and that’s even part of denial.

T: Mmm. That’s important, yeah.

J: And when you start to realize you were looking at them with some admiration or some attraction, it destabilizes your own sense of shutting it down, if you will.

S: Mmhmm.

T: Yeah, I think you had shared with me in another private conversation which I thought was so poignant, is that you told yourself you were just admiring godly men, right, and we could relate to that, because I think we also had some of the same struggles. Back to that – who will you deny article that we talked about, we were all suppressing our sexuality. We were all trying to keep all of that in check and push that down, so I think the human mind is very creative on how it can feed us certain coping mechanisms, so I think that was a really important one that you shared of yeah, I’m just admiring them.

J: That comes – it’s one of the earliest things, when a young man – 12, 15, 20 year old, they’re coming into their sense of whatever their sexuality will be, and all of a sudden sexuality is presented to them visually, and however it is, and they find themselves going well, how do I feel about this? And one of the things that they do is like – oh, it’s fine, it’s natural, I wonder if I’ll be like him when I’m older. So you’re able to dismiss some of the attraction as just comparison.

S: Ok.

T: Yeah.

S: So Jim, I’ll pivot a little bit on something.

J: Sure.

S: We – as you know, we at Last Days, we referred people to other organizations; to Exodus, to Daystar, if they were having same sex attraction, and that whole gay conversion therapy – ugh, bullshit. Bullshit, but we believed in it, and we sent people, and I’m just wondering what you may have thought about it at the time; if it was something that you ever considered for yourself, or if you’ve known others who were subjected to that – it’s just abuse, but at the time we didn’t think so, so any of your thoughts on that topic?

J: So, yes. Back in the day when that was proposed for some people, I did know of other people at Last Days who were recommended, or sent, or however you want to put it, to these transitional places. What’s the word?

T: Gay conversion?

J: Conversion.

T: Conversion therapy.

J: Conversion therapy, yes. I never felt like I was in that class of persons, so I never brought it up. I never talked to people enough to be recommended in that group. I tried to keep myself off the radar, if you will, but I did know people who were going through it. It’s funny, because as I’ve learned to study over the years, I’m very much as western medicine, western science, and by science I don’t want to say science is the answer to everything. I say science usually poses really good questions, and it changes with new information. This in particular was one of the great things that said, it doesn’t work. It does not change a person’s identity for who they are. You can go to conversion therapy and become right handed, if you’re born left handed. You can’t become brown eyed if you’re born blue eyed. You cannot. There are certain things that you will never change who you are, because somebody else tells you you should not be that. So one of the things I learned very quickly as I started to recognize the fallibility of conversion therapy was the whole approach. If anything, it gave me great compassion for the people who are subjected to it, or who were considering it. To me it’s right up with the monks that used to self-flagellate with the cat of nine tails.

T: Yes.

S: Yeah. Did you ever know anyone personally who went through it?

J: Yeah, I’ve known a couple. One has since committed suicide.

T: Ohh.

S: Oh god.

J: Actually, I have a few who have committed suicide that I forgot that that was part of their history, but I know there are many who – they still endure prolonged, difficult lives of depression, anxiety, shame, and the sense of I’m never going to be who my family wanted me to be, and therefore why should I be here. I mean, I will tell you one of the things. As I came out, it was after Last Days, and I’d gone on from Last Days to being a missionary for a couple of years in Central America, which was personal drive and really kind of where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do, and it was while I was there I met medical missionaries and became interested in going ok, I could see myself doing that. As I got into medicine and I started to question some of the things – and this is going to send some people running for the hills, I’m sure. We all have one friend in particular who has turned their back on western medicine for their religion. But it made me stop and say ok, how can I come to the conclusion that God would hate me for being blue eyed, or left handed? When I did that, and I started to come out to myself and to my family, my mom in particular – as soon as I realized I had the unconditional love of my mom, the rest of it didn’t matter anymore.

T: Mmm.

S: Oh my god.

J: It really didn’t. I realized – Sharon, you’re actually one of the factors in this too – you were one of the people I would have judged myself against, and you showed me love and acceptance.  Personally. Not on a broad spectrum, but one on one. You called me and told me Jim, I know what you’re thinking. I know you’re thinking of not coming to the reunion. You’re welcome. We’ll host you at our house, you’re our guest, we want you to come. And as soon as I knew I had people like that in my life, all of the judgements and all that kind of fell aside. But I’ll tell you – I also prayed. I prayed and fasted for a weekend when I first was coming out. I turned to God and I said honestly God, you need to talk to me. If you’ve ever talked to me in your life, it’s gotta be now. Tell me what you think. And I felt like I got answers, and he said if I don’t take it away, will you still trust me. If I don’t change a thing will you believe that I made you just the way you are, and that’s marvellous. And I had to say ok. And then when my mom called me and she said I know everything and it doesn’t matter, I was able to say then nothing matters that would be against who I am. I’ve turned out to be a good man.

T: Oh my gosh.

S: You are!

T: Yes! Yes you are. I just want to shout out to your mother, I think that is such a beautiful story. I know that was one of the poignant points for me in Boy Erased, the movie that I’ve referenced a few times in that scene where Nicole Kidman comes in, storming really, into the gay conversion setting and basically like – a mother knows. A mother knows. And having that support system of the mothers out there is just so important. I’m so glad your mother was there for you, and I think part of what Sharon and I are doing, even in this, is it’s so important to give that support, and let those cracks in your foundation as far as this crazy bible belief that we crammed into our brains, to come and arrive at that point that you did Jim, that – I mean, I’m so proud of you, because I don’t think that many people have been able to have that sense of God saying to them I made you just like you are, and trust me on that. That’s powerful.

J: It was. I will tell you too, one of the absolute moments with my mother and I. My mom came down to visit me in Tyler Texas when I was living there, after I’d been on the mission field. And I knew, somehow I knew she was going to ask me. I’d freaked out to a friend, I’m like – she knows. She turned to me, and said Jimmy, I need to ask you something and I need to know whatever the truth is, and I can handle it and I don’t care what the answer is, but I deserve the truth. Have you ever thought you might be gay? And I paused for a moment, and my typical wit said no mom, it had never really crossed my mind.  But now that you mention it…

[laughter]

J: And she goes – what? And I said yes mom, I’m gay. And she burst into tears, sobbing. She fell against my chest. I thought she was having a heart attack, and I’m like oh my god, I’ve just killed my mom. After about a minute she composed herself, and her first words were I’m so relieved.

S: Wow.

J: And I said relieved? Relieved is a strange comment. Were you worried I’d grow up straight?

[laughter]

J: And she said, no. I’m relieved because you and me had always been close, and the last couple of years I could tell something was changing with you, and we weren’t close anymore and you weren’t talking to me. And now we can be close again.

S: Oh my god, Jim.

J: And all the secrets are gone.

S: I’ve got tears in my eyes right now. Here is why – you being your real authentic self, just who you are – which, you’ve understated it. You’re not just a good person, you’re a great and amazing and loving and kind and astounding human being. The thought of having self-loathing or self-criticism or self-judgement to think that the essence of who you are isn’t beautiful and wonderful – that is so heartbreaking. But what your mother said to you really, really shines a light on the huge problem of disconnection, because when people disconnect from themselves, for whatever reason – societal judgement, stupid religious beliefs, whatever it is – when we disconnect from ourselves we stop being able to be our beautiful authentic self, and then we can’t connect with others, even those who love us. So I am so grateful for your mom, Jim.

J: Me too.

S: What an amazing woman. I’m so happy for you – and for her.

J: I remember there was a day – this is not to step away from my mom, but at the same time it’s to applaud her and what she recognized. There was a day when among Christian circles, if you will, that they would have paused and hesitated in the fact that somebody remained left handed. There was a day. Truly. And you’re like – really? That’s going to be the thing that separates me from God in eternity? That’s going to be your hesitation for us being able to share bread and have community? Fellowship? And yet there were some, and they wanted to make it that. To the credit of some of the people who have come around, they may have not deconstructed, but they’ve come to the point of accepting I don’t understand, and that says a lot – just to be able to say I don’t understand gives you a path to going it’s not my truth, but if it is your truth, then the fact that I love you is enough. I don’t have to understand. I don’t get being left handed. I don’t understand blue eyes. These are things I was taught was anathema for negative or separating from God, but I love you, and therefore I can maybe come to a point of going, I don’t have to understand everything.

S: That’s humility, isn’t it?

T: It is humility. That’s a quality that you have continued to demonstrate. Even from your leaving Last Days Ministries, and I know you referenced the reunion we had in there, and folks, I’m telling you, to go to one of these Last Days reunions – not too many years removed from the intensity of the holiness that we all believed, and to come to that reunion as an openly out gay man is impressive, Jim.

J: Terrifying was the word.

T: Terrifying, but you know what – you held yourself with so many of the values that – I mean, I think you’re beloved by everyone so as Sharon is saying, you’re not just a great man, you’re an outstanding man. Of course we’re going to want to hear more about how you ended up going into medicine and the work you do as a nurse – your heart for humanity, your humility, your ability to be able to put yourself in other people’s shoes and give them like, ok, they’re giving me a branch – even for you to say that they don’t understand it, that that’s enough for you; you know what, that’s a branch they’re giving me, and I’m going to take it. I’m going to respond to that. Not a lot of people do that, and that’s what has impressed me through the years as we’ve stayed in contact, is just your amazing compassion and the values by which you bring that connectedness to all your relationships. I think it’s astounding.

J: I appreciate that. One of the things I’ve appreciated about the overall tone of the entire podcast too, is we’re talking about where we are, and what the past has affected on us, and how we’ve grown from it, but it’s not condemning, it’s not judging on people who’ve grown differently. We understand that the powers of faith, the powers of religiosity, the powers of whatever – are powerful. They’re extremely powerful.

T: Very powerful.

J: And I can’t even judge that. I can just say that some of us are not there anymore and here’s the voice of somebody who’s not. I’ve been where you’re at, so I hear yours. They can’t relate perhaps to us who have deconstructed a little bit, but having been where they are, we do relate to them. We’re not trying to say come to us, we’re just saying we get it. We understand. And we’re not rejecting you, we still welcome the fact that we have history together, and I have got some amazing friendships that I still treasure to this day, who are still extremely religious, and we’ve navigated a way to say we can still enjoy each other, and maybe disagree, or maybe not understand.

S: Yep. Jim I think you are – and Tracey, probably you as well – I think you guys are probably a little more generous of heart than I am.

T: Well, I was just going to say Jim, I think you’re actually better than we are in that.

J: No, no there’s a couple of people I want to tell to fuck off.

[laughter]

T: Ok.

S: I have reframed – I heard somebody reframe this and I love it. Remember that old hate the sin, love the sinner?

T: Yes.

S: So now it’s like, hate the belief, love the believer.

T: I know. We love that.

J: I’m going to take it into the medical world, and I’m going to tell you that as a family nurse, one of the things I do is I help people in the peak of their crisis in grief. Some of them are grieving sideways and it’s not functional and it’s not appropriate and I can’t allow it, and I’m sorry for what you’re going through, but it can’t happen here. One of the things I’ve wanted to turn to people is, I cannot turn to a family member and say fuck off. However, I can turn to them in the most therapeutic sense, and say how might I help you to fuck off?

[laughter]

J: And it changes everything, right?

T: It changes everything. Yeah, we kind of talked a little bit about that in one of our episode’s closings, just in having that patience and having – I think it’s when you’re coming against the hateful…

J: Yeah.

S: Arrogant, smug assholes.

T: Yeah, the arrogance, but it’s the sense of they know I’m going to hell, and I’m like – whoa, that is just such an offensive statement. Of course, we get it, we understand where it came from, although I think Jim – and where you mentioned, even Sharon at Last Days, I do think there were some of us that tried not to come off that caustic with it, so I think I’m still a little surprized in these circles when they are so caustic about this. It’s like whoa, and I have a hard time being calm.

S: Yeah. Jim, I’m curious. What has been the range of responses and maybe the percentages of responses of our former LDM community people as you are out and living your authentic life. What has happened? How have they responded to you?

T: And you’re married. I don’t know if we’ve mentioned that, or you’ve had a chance to say that.

J: I’m married, I’ve been with somebody for 18 years now, and uh…

S: Ok, before you even answer my other question, see I’m allowed to interrupt myself.

J: Sure.

S: When Dave and I came and visited and stayed with you and Luke there in Montreal, Jim I remember you and me being off in a side room for a couple of minutes and giggling – oh my god can you believe how hot our husbands are?

J: Right? We both hit the jackpot.

[laughter]

J: I don’t think your husband would acknowledge the same things mine has, but mine was like, you’re right. She has.

[laughter]

S: That’s cute. Alright, so back to that question about how the former LDMers have responded to you.

J: So it’s very interesting, because from the first time that it started to come out that I was gay, and it probably kind of branches back to the first reunion – was it Colorado City?

T: Colorado Springs, baby.

J: Colorado Springs.

T: Which is the home of a Youth With A Mission base, so we’re just throwing it out there.

J: Going back to the first Colorado Springs reunion of Last Days, I really wanted to see everybody. I knew the risk was that the word was out that I was probably gay. There were certain people that knew. There were certain people I knew it was certain to be a shock to. And I was just like – I really want to see these people. I’m part of them, and they’re part of me, so I went. In about 10 minutes I figured out who my allies were. It was Sharon, Betty Daffin, and Diana. These were my buddies, and they loved me and they may not agree with me, but regardless of what they thought, they loved me and that was enough. And then there was softball. As soon as the guys got together you could see the looks, and when the looks started, I was out. I was totally out.

T: So explain that. They were looking at you like you had a disease, or they didn’t want to catch the gay – what kind of look?

J: Who knows what goes through the mind of a straight Christian man when they’re talking to a friend that happens to be gay? I cannot fathom. It must be hard, because everything they’re taught to think and believe…

T: Sharon’s still in kindergarten, so she giggles every time hard is mentioned. She giggles.

J: I’m fighting from giggling too, it was funny. You should have been there.

[laughter]

J: And it’s funny, some of them were people I really had respect for, and then the fun part was the ones I had zero respect for, and they were the most uncomfortable, and I’m like – live in your discomfort. I’ve spent 35 years of my life being uncomfortable. It’s your turn.

T: It’s your turn! That’s great. I love that, especially for Pride month. There’s that meme, as far as wishing everybody a really uncomfortable June, but I think that is such a great slogan. You know what, I’ve spent my whole life wrestling and being uncomfortable…

J: On your behalf!

T: Absolutely it’s your turn!

J: Trying to adjust who I am, and the pronouns of who I’m with, and talking about what I did on my weekend because it might make you uncomfortable. And you’re like – wow, I’m so sorry to myself that I’ve let you have this much control over my own happiness.

T: So good.

S: Yeah. So Jim, what would you say today if you could go back in time to your younger self now, speaking to him – and maybe it’s even speaking to other folks that are wrestling that have not yet been able to embrace who they really are. But what would you have said to your younger self, if you could?

J: Probably the same thing I still say to myself now, and the same thing I would still say to other people. Be kind. My god, life is hard. Be kind. What you’re feeling, and what people want to judge about you – they don’t understand. It doesn’t give them permission to change your life by laws and proclamations and policy and everything like that, and certainly not by religious decree – which is totally interpretive. But just be kind to people. You don’t know what they’re going through, and you know what, they’re probably not horrible people, they’re just not living the things that you know to be reality. What day did you wake up and go yep, today I realised I’m straight. Nobody does that. Why would it be any different for anybody else, and when you do realize it, and you realize it is on the chalkboard, something that everybody would want to reject or judge – who would choose that? How ridiculous. So, be kind. Just be kind. For those people who say I don’t understand, I don’t understand what you’re telling me, I don’t understand homosexuality, I don’t understand deconstruction. Whatever it is. I’m not asking you to understand. That’s too big of a discussion for us to have, considering where we’re both starting. All I’m saying is, not understanding is a place of peace, going I don’t have to understand everything about you to say we have a history, you’ve always been this person I’ve loved and treasured, I’d like for that to stay, and the things I don’t understand about you probably are legion. There’s things about that person that I don’t understand, and I don’t have to understand everything to say you know what, I still love you, I’m still here for you, and I’d still like to have a relationship with you.

S: Mmm. So good Jim. So good.

T: And it seems that it is that foundational value I would think that even led you to Last Days Ministries at the beginning, because I think many people have said we did have a lot of genuinely, sincerely hearted loving people that came that wanted to be really serving humanity and making it a better place.

J: Absolutely.

T: Our message really got off track for sure, but you’ve been able to take those same foundational values and it does seem like you’re finding that outlet now in the medical community. Want to tell us a little bit about that?

J: I will, but just because I will still give Last Days and my time there, and my time in Evangelical Christianity some credit for who I’ve become. I can’t negate that those things are factors in who I am today, and like I said, I am proud of who I am today. I have zero regret in who I’ve become and what I contribute. And that’s not nothing.

T: So good.

J: My time back then developed into something I needed to be tangible. When I said I believe, belief is a powerful thing. Belief is a mix between what we understand to be true, and what we want to be true. A lot of times you have to add in factors like ok, how can I know that? For me, science was part of that, and some of it was trust in people who I looked up to. So you factor all those in, and here we are today. Last Days played a part in giving me certain values. My values were, even before that, but reinforced, of a life of service to others. I’ve always had a sense of that. My mother and I grew up on welfare. We had nothing, and I never knew it. I never was aware that we had nothing. I truly didn’t. I didn’t realize we received checks from the government and I couldn’t have this because we didn’t have the money. I never was aware of it, because my mom always instilled in me – you not only have everything you need, but you have it within yourself to give to others whose needs are greater. So even from a point of being on welfare, my mom and I went to soup kitchens at Thanksgiving and Christmas, and we served others. My mom was just like that. She always was one to say we have a little extra for dinner, come on over. My mom was always the one who said our place is warm. Come here. I thin that my life from that has become a life of service, so from my life of faith to my life in medicine, it was a natural transition to say this is just who I am. My life comes with – I won’t say a sense of responsibility and obligation, but a sense of – I love that sense of having enough to give. I mean, there’s a selfishness to it – believe me, it is pleasurable to give to others, and see them receive, and realize you did something they could not do for themselves. It’s rewarding. That’s who I am. It’s who I’ve always been, it’s who I always want to be.

T: Wow, that is so powerful, and what I’m hearing – a lot of us who came to Last Days Ministries came from a lot of trauma and we can see that kind of work its way out in some of the more unhealthy expressions. I just see that your mother really set you up with a foundation of love, which I think added into your ability to even hear God’s love for you, which is a beautiful story, and another thing – I know Sharon did an episode on us as grandmothers, and being able to look at that beautiful innocence of a baby, and it’s like – please, parents, love your kids. I mean, it does so much to set them on the foundation of that acceptance that’s through and through. That is a beautiful story, Jim. And also, which makes it all the more heartbreaking that in most Evangelical spaces people like you would be shut out because of your sexual orientation.

J: Absolutely.

T: And it’s like, hey world, there’s a whole community that’s ready to give and love, and is really important in these spaces. I know in Abigail’s episode – we’ll put it in our show notes – she talks about her horrible time in IBLP, and it was the queer community who openly embraced her and restored her, and how many opportunities are there to open our faith communities and really let this love and expression run free, because when you know what it’s like to be rejected, you know what it’s like to be healed, and I think your spirit is just beautiful, Jim.

J: Thank you. I do believe there is something innate to each community. I am as much part of a bunch of other communities, as well as part of the gay community. It’s one part of my identity, it’s not my whole identity. But it is a factor that I’m glad plays a part in who I am today, and I will never negate that. I will tell you in my experience in the gay community, there is something innate in the gay community that wants to serve others. They are generous of spirit, they are community people. If you didn’t know they were gay, you’d look at them as the pinnacles of your community going wow, I’d like to be like him or like her. These people stand out. And that one point is what some would like to negate, or deny them their contribution.

T: Yeah.

S: I think also that affinity for service, that affinity for kindness and connection; I wonder if that is a contributing factor – I have a theory, it’s not scientifically borne out because I haven’t done any research, but I think that communal organizations and ministries, such as Last Days Ministries, many YWAM bases, and probably a host of others – hell, for that matter, monasteries and cloisters throughout the centuries – there is an attraction, and perhaps an even higher percentage than the population in general, of gays and lesbians coming to be part of that service aspect.

J: I think that’s true. I think there’s a symbiosis. When you see over history – I don’t know if you read Pillars of the Earth. They never address the gay issue, but you can see it. If you’re not blind, you can see it. These people found a place to contribute into the community while being a little bit cloistered, a little bit under the radar, if you will. And yet they found this is my place to make my mark. This is my place to feel valued.

S: And to not be questioned as to why I didn’t get married and have children.

J: Mother Teresa. I mean, I don’t know that she was lesbian, but she found a place without being married or straight, to say I can contribute and be valued, and recognized as someone who made a difference for the good.

S: Yeah, and all the while when within those organizations or structures, also having to swallow that message that the core of who you are is an abomination to God, and that’s just so unfair. You know Jim, I’m so happy that for you, you came out – or should I say, you came to yourself at a fairly early age. You did not live decades, and decades, and decades of suppression and denial of your true self.

J: Right.

S: But I think that there are those that were in our Last Days family that you and Tracey and I, we know and love, I know that there are those who – well, we know some came out later.

J: We all know who we’re talking about.

T: Yeah. We do.

S: Those who came out later, who struggled for decades, and those who are still not able to embrace their true self.

T: Right. Well, Anthony had said it in one of our last episodes, about how they don’t have a pathway to be able to experience that intimacy and that love and connection, in a life partner in those spheres, because we’ve not allowed it. How heartbreaking is that, right, so these people who have continued to be as you were, Jim, to say ok, this will be just a part of me that I will cut off and won’t live out – they’ve been denied that opportunity to have a lasting relationship out in the open, and that’s what we’re hoping that voices upon voices upon voices will start to see this community – like you just mentioned, the pillars of our very communities – and start making a way for them. Especially in the faith spaces. There’s so much to give. So much that we need to benefit from.

J: Absolutely.

S: Well, one thing in all of it though that really still angers me, is that the people who are in leadership positions within these organizations, whether they are – I’m not naming names, I am so wanting to name names, but I’m not going to.

J: Say it. No, sorry.

T: [laughter]

S: Well, ok.

T: The kindness of Jim has said to say it.

S: I’ll speculate. One is within Youth With A Mission. **** remains single, the number of leaders within these organizations who absolutely are gay. Absolutely. Some are married with children; absolutely gay. Some have been single and want to pattern themselves after – you know, they’ll say ooh this’ll be like Paul, just devoted to Jesus. Nope, nope he’s just hiding because you know – I’m sorry, he’s turned off by pussy. He’s not going to get married. But they are still enforcing this belief system on those who follow them, and they themselves are suppressing themselves, therefore they’re suppressing others. That part just infuriates me.

J: Agreed. To me that’s a fine line between the person, like, we all have a brother – without naming it I bet you all know who I’m talking about, who we love. He’s gentle of spirit, he’s welcoming to us all, he’s all these things, and his past and his whatever is his own, but he’s never judgemental in correction. And then there’s the person like – who we just named, but maybe bleeped – who to me I’d throw under the bus, because he has changed the trajectory for other people in such a negative and detrimental way.

T&S: Mmhmm.

J: To me it’s the politician that you out, who’s anti-gay and poses anti-gay policy and legislation, and then you find out that he’s screwing young boys, and you’re like I’m sorry, but I’m outing you. You’re going under the bus. I want the whole world to see. That’s a different thing completely.

S: Yes.

J: I won’t say that there isn’t a difference. The person who is afraid to be tapped on the shell and say I’m not ready to come out of my shell, the turtle who’s afraid, is not the same as the person who won’t come out when they’ve pronounced things against other turtles. They’re not the same.

T: They’re not the same.

J: No. A person who is afraid to come out – we all get the fear. This society, community, religion, the people we care about, our churches – all of these things are influences that make us decide how safe are we.

T: Yes.

J: And then there’s the person who says you’re bad for this, and then you find out they’re doing the same damn thing? I’m sorry, I’m going to out you to the whole world.

T: Yes.

J: I don’t believe in outing other people. I really don’t. But in the case where you’ve condemned people that you are the same as – sorry.

T: Right, well Anthony mentions this, of course when we had our conversation about Sy Rogers, and we brought it back to authenticity. That’s what I think we’re looking for in, like you say, the one who’s afraid. They’re authentic, and they need their time, but the people that are really wreaking havoc in other people’s lives and not being their authentic selves – they’re charlatans. They’re selling a bill of goods that they’re not living or not being honest with themselves. Of course, you know we’ve not mentioned names here, but it is a Youth With A Mission circle that we’re talking about, and with that organization comes a lot of spiritual abuse, and spiritual exploitation. This is number one offence in that organization of spiritually abusing others, and telling people to completely deny and hate themselves while they themselves have the same issue going on.

J: So, in the spirit of not naming names, per se, there were leadership during the time of the exodus of Last Days Ministries that spoke against homosexuality, that spoke against emotionally dependent relationships, if you will.

S: Name those motherfuckers, Jim, name those motherfuckers. They deserve to be named.

J: Fred Markert is the person that comes to my mind. He spoke up one night, and he destroyed relationships left right and center, that later he regretted himself, and I’m sorry, I don’t give him a pass on that, because the destruction was so vast and so permanent.

S: Yep.

J: These relationships were described as sinful and abhorrent, and whatever you want to call them. They were wonderful, brotherly, sisterly relationships that gave us strength when we needed strength, and we were made to question their validity and their authenticity, and their value and the purity, because of some 30 minute speech from a podium. I had one of my dearest friends sitting next to me during the sermon, stand up and walk away from me without a word, and never explained himself. I knew the explanation. There was so much destruction to otherwise pure relationships because of fear and things, on the part of people I believe had the same struggle for themselves.

S: Absolutely he does.

T: Absolutely.

S: Oh Jim. That is infuriating, and heartbreaking, and I am so happy and thankful for the beautiful life you have crafted.

J: Me too!

S: It’s wonderful, and connecting with you again, like this – the time has just flown by…

T: Flown by!

S: And what I’m really hoping and wondering, Jim, is what are the chances that you can join me and Tracey here at my farm in Ocala, on October 31^st for a private Flamy Grant concert! Do you think you can come down?

J: I’m gonna plan it. I am so gonna plan it right now. I have the vacation time. I have a brother in law who has just gone into hospice so I have to chisel out some time. My sister’s going to need us.

T: Yes, because you’re such a kind, caring person that’s always putting your family first. So just gotta call that out.

J: My family is worth it. My family is wonderful.

T: Yes.

J: So apart from that, I still have plenty of time that my boss is going Jim, how come you have so much vacation time accrued? And I’m like, I don’t know, I kind of like my job? COVID happened, you didn’t want me to take time for a while, Luke and I can’t take time at the same time, whatever. So I’ve got time. I’m hopeful to do this and my god, I would love to join you guys. It’s actually on my calendar.

T: That would be so great.

S: I hope you can. And listeners, when we say it’s a private concert, that means we’re not putting it out to the whole public, but folks who are part of our Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters community group, and former Last Days members, and even just other wonderfully enlightened souls are all welcomed. We’re going to have a big party, so we’ll be putting information out in our Facebook group, which is Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community.

T: Community!

S: You can go on there and ask to join and get the details, and yeah, this has just been awesome Jim. So good to talk with you.

T: We are so glad.

J: It’s so funny, because there are so many directions this could have gone, and I so was feeling like we’re going to talk about a couple of different things that I would have loved to talk to, and I think we covered a lot. I think we covered what needed to be covered.

S: And this doesn’t have to be the last conversation. I think there will be more to come.

T: It doesn’t!

J: Even if it happens over a fire and a glass of wine.

T: Yes. Cue the sound effects, Sharon!

S: Oh fuck.

[crackling fire and wine glasses clink]

T: But we also – you can talk to Jim on our Facebook community as well, because we have just crowned you one of our admin helps.

T&S: Yaay!

J: If people want to talk, I am so open to a chit chat with them. If it helps them at all to navigate life as it is, and life as people tell them it’s supposed to be. It’s not obvious, and I’m so glad to be a person who’s figured it out on some level that can help maybe somebody else. That’s all.

S: Yeah.

T: That’s awesome. So if you’re ready for raw cult sisters, you got us, but if you want the more measured, kind answer, you’ve got Jim. So it’s all there at the community!

J: I cannot wait to hear back. I’m sure I’m going to hear something from ****, ****, ****.

[laughter]

T: I hope so!

J: They’re all going to be writing after this gets put out there.

S: I hope you do, and I hope you will share it with us, Jim.

J: You know I will.

T: Yes, welcome to the club.

J: Tracey’s got catching up to do; Sharon and Dave and I, we’ve had time to hang out, let our hair down, watch Jesus Christ Superstar.

S: Oh yeah.

T: Definitely.

J: October/November? You’re on.

S: Yep.

T: That would be great. And of course, if you don’t already, follow us on Instagram, feetofclay.cultsisters, because all of this fun wine time and Flamy time is going to get posted there so that you can see all our great pictures. And I think we’ve mentioned everything else Sharon, except for – if you like it, rate it, give us a review. I’m still waiting to read the steaming vat of rebellious witchery review that I haven’t read yet. So go on there and rate us, and leave a review.

S: Excellent.

….

S: Pssst. In the couple of weeks since our conversation with Jim was recorded, we have received several reviews praising our awesome steaming vat of rebellious witchery! Oh my god, we love you guys. And keep those reviews coming, folks!