This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 042 – Nope, NOT Okay!!!  Part 2 – We Renounce Our Last Days Ministries

12 June, 2024

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters!

S: Today we are doing part two of our very important discussion with Anthony Venn-Brown. This is our effort to take responsibility, and begin to make amends for the literature we published, and all the horrible harm we participated in against the LGBTQ community during our time at Last Days Ministries.

T: Yes, yes, yes. Anthony’s autobiography A Life of Unlearning is an international best seller, and his organization Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International – oh Sharon, is doing some tremendous work on behalf of the queer community worldwide.

S: Yes.

T: And we are so honored that he joined us for this endeavor.

S: Yeah. Absolutely fantastic. So folks, if you haven’t already heard part one, our episode from last week, please pause now and pop back over to give that a listen. That way you can be all caught up. But also, beware listeners…

[laughing]

S: One of the verses that Tracey referenced last week was the scripture, rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. And she also went so far – because she has not only an open mind, but a sharp mind – she dared to bring up basic logic, and the equation of if A=B, and B=C, therefore A=C – alright, follow me here. In this case we’re talking rebellion = witchcraft, homosexuality = rebellion, therefore homosexuality = witchcraft, and with witchcraft comes all sorts of devils and demons!

T: Oh the demons. That’s right, and fear not – we also, Sharon, you and I, have not escaped that either.

S: No.

T: The same people who lived in community with us – which means they were former Last Days Ministries commune folks – they sound like they’re ready to either get a sack of stones and throw it at us, or what did they used to do to witches? Dunk them in the river to see if they would float?

S: Right. Did they float or drown, yeah.

T: Yes. So a friend recently sent us a screenshot of one of the rants that was against you and I Sharon – of course, I couldn’t see it because I’m blocked…

S: Me too!

T: …from this site, so let me just read it. “They” – and they’re referring to Sharon and I – “will say anything their wretched minds can concoct in their steaming vat of rebellious witchery”.

[laughter]

T: As I read that, I was like – wow. I of course posted it on Instagram, and as I was writing it out, I was like oh my god, that’s the best band name ever.

[laughter]

T: The Steaming Vat of Rebellious Witchery. I do have to give them some credit for some creative writing.

S: [laughing] I love this so much. Hey everybody, give it up for Steaming Vat of Rebellious Witchery! Woo hoo hoo!

T: I wish I could play the guitar.

S: Oh my god. Alright folks, well, look – before we jump back into this episode – this is assuming you’re not too terrified of being possessed by our demons, right, that you’ll hang with them.

T: I know you joke, but there absolutely are people who are afraid of being possessed by our demons. Just saying that.

S: I know. I know, that’s so sad. Well, if you want to join us – and who knows, maybe some other demons too, in the conversation with other listeners, we invite you to join our Facebook group, Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community.

T: Yes, and if you could be so kind you can help spread the word about this podcast by giving us a rating, or even better, if you write a review – whatever platform you’re using. That really helps to get our podcast out there for people who are searching. It only takes a few seconds, even if you only say a few words. Even if you say awesome steaming vat of rebellious witchery. That would also work.

S: [laughing hysterically] oh my god, that would be so great.

T: Yeah, it helps the algorithms to suggest our show to others. Who knows who might join then!

[laughter]

S: Oh shit. That’s fantastic. Alright, PS, Tracey puts a lot of cool things up on Instagram, so follow us there too, feetofclay.cultsisters, and thank you everyone for being with us, and here is part two.

…

T: Yeah, and I liked what Anthony said earlier as far as it being ignorance, right, and that’s one of the reasons we’re going through these articles, Sharon, because it really highlights the ignorance that has been out there as a message. So as I said earlier, this whole article, I’m Gay, OK, by Martin Bennett, reads as his own systematic theology, and everything is in nice, neat little headings. There are 11 of those boxes, those little bible boxes that everything complex is fitting into, and it attempts to cover the full spectrum of the gay issue. We’re going to read and discuss some of the more egregious things, I don’t think we’re going to go through all of the headings, right?

S: No, we’re not going to hit them all, but we’re going to hit the ones that make us the most mad.

T: And I will post those headings on the website as well, as well as Instagram, so people can see for themselves.

S: Yep. Alright, so here’s some of the stuff under one of the early headings. What is Homosexuality?

T: Yeah, and he just is able to tell us the answer in kind of a couple of paragraphs!

S: [laughing] Alright, here it is, here it is folks. “We need to find what homosexuality is and isn’t. Just having some kind of homosexual encounter in your past doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re ‘gay’. Homosexuality isn’t just a strong attraction for those of the same sex. Someone who is tempted to steal something isn’t a thief until he actually gives into his desire. Being homosexual means giving your mind over in pursuing lustful thoughts, maybe through pornography, or giving your body over to pursue these desires. A homosexual is a person who not only has a strong attraction for the same sex, but has also made the decision to yield to these desires. The gay mentality or lifestyle aren’t things you just stumble into. You walk into them, step by step.”

T: Hmmm.

S: Anthony! Your thoughts.

A: I always find it a tad amusing when straight men will write about homosexuality, and they will say things such as Martin has said here – well, you know, just having a same sex sexual experience doesn’t make you gay.

S: Do you think they’re trying to cover for something that might have happened in their past?

A: They’re totally doing that! I was asked to speak to a whole bunch of pastors at Hillsong once, and I mentioned to them – I was meant to be there for 20 minutes, it ended up being two hours, and it was very profitable, but I remember when I talked about Kinsey and his research, and how he found that nearly 40% of men had had same sex experience to the point of reaching orgasm. Well, there was a lot of shuffling going on in the seats.

[laughter]

T: Oh my gosh.

A: These guys had never ever heard that before, and their wives had never heard that before. And here we are going ohhh, yes, yes, so, I just find it a tad amusing when they say oh, well, yeah. Dave Wilkerson did the same. It’s a very common thing for them to say. Being gay or lesbian, or bi-sexual – it’s not about the activity of itself. It’s about romantic attachment. It’s about relationship, it’s about tenderness, it’s about affection, it’s about intimacy. You know, they’re the things that make us human, whether we’re gay or whether we’re straight, and there is a very wrong misconception out there that it is all just about sexual activity – no, it’s deeper.

T: It’s deeper.

A: It’s the very core of who I am.

T: Yep, but that we get them out of the simple box to where they formed that way, and they can’t accept that.

S: Right.

A: Yeah.

S: Alright, Tracey want to grab the next one?

T: The following subtitle is Where Did It Start? Oh god. This is such simplistic thinking, I can’t even, but…I guess it’s to that point, they have to keep it at activity, because they cannot at all believe people were born this way.

S: Right, because the basic explanation is that either you were traumatized, or you had your feelings hurt by the opposite sex, or…

T: Neglected. Neglected by your father was a big one for male homosexuality.

S: Right. And, in the end, you’re basically just filled with evil, you evil little shit you, so take your pick.

A: What’s interesting is – not everybody listening will know this, but for about three decades, mental health professionals – this was their theory; that something happened to you in your childhood, in growing up, particularly whether there was – maybe if you were a male, that there was a distant father, and an overbearing mother, and therefore you know, you became gay. This went on for decades, until 1973, when mental health professionals, the American Psychiatric Association, took homosexuality off the list of disorders, of mental health issues. Why? Because they realized they were wrong. But of course, what happened then was the church takes it up after that.

T: Yes.

A: Adopting the exact same theories that the mental health professionals had tried to prove, for three decades, unsuccessfully. But it’s exactly the same thing.

S: Right.

A: You’re not born, you’re actually – it’s nurture, not nature.

T: Yeah – this is why I’m so mad at myself, because you said that came out in 1973. In high school Sharon and I talked about people starting to come out as gay, and so then we joined this fucking ministry in the 80s and go backwards on so many thinkings that we should have been at the forefront of – which is why Sharon and I believe that this was a political thing by Melody, because the church absolutely did take this up, to take the culture back, because they didn’t like what was happening.

S: Yes, because it’s going to threaten traditional marriage. I’m like – how the fuck does it make a difference if two women love each other, and kiss each other, and give each other orgasms and live together in a house or apartment – how does that threaten my marriage? It’s just insane.

A: Yeah.

T: Yes. So going onto more little simple-minded boxes. Why did God make us?

S: I like to call it mansplaining.

T: Mansplaining. This is so much mansplaining. But unfortunately it’s going out to other men too, so they’re being mansplained too. Here are a few samples. “The one who designed you and knows everything about you is the same one who cares about you more than you even care for yourself.” I never heard that one before, Sharon.

S: Never. Continue.

T: “He didn’t expect that the people he had loved and given to would want to shut him out of their lives.” Is that the sentence structure? That’s a bad sentence.

S: Yeah, I think that’s – well maybe I pulled it out wrong, but I think that was it.

T: “And even though he made the whole world and has continued to be good to all of us, for the most part we don’t want him to have anything to do with our lives. Remember this the next time you feel hurt and rejected, because Jesus has been hurt and rejected in a much greater way.

S: Oh god. So it’s my turn to say how much I hate, hate, hate this shit. It is gaslighting. It is reversing victim-offender. It would be ridiculous Tracey, if it wasn’t at its core, so dangerous. This is literally – literally – trying to make us feel sorry for poor Jesus – who by the way is supposedly the creator of all, and the most powerful being in existence, who knows everything, who can have, and can do, and can be anything he wants, and we should feel sorry for him, because oh gosh, not enough people want to sit with him at the lunch table.

T: I mean, that’s why I read it – it was hard for me not to read it sarcastically because it’s just so insulting to my intelligence to read this.

[laughter]

S: Anthony, anything you want to say?

A: No, that’s fine.

[laughter]

S: He’s dumbfounded.

A: I was reading ahead, so I lost my train of thought there for a moment.

S: Ok, no worries.

T: But there’s more. Wait, there’s still more. The next heading, my favorite, I already called it out – The Manufacturer’s Manual. God, this is just the secret to life, everybody, the manufacturer’s manual.

S: So I’m going to read this one quote. “So what’s wrong with being gay anyway? It’s my sexual preference.”

A: Oh my god, I hate that term.

[laughter]

S: Do tell, Anthony. Do tell.

A: People who probably are not very informed about sexuality will sometimes use the term sexual preference, when actually it’s sexual orientation. There’s a huge difference. If you’re gay or lesbian, or you’re bisexual, it’s not a preference, it’s an orientation. Preference is something like, I prefer to have peas as opposed to brussels sprouts. That’s a preference. But an orientation is much deeper. That’s the core of who I am.

T: Yes.

A: On your Supreme Court, Amy what-her-name?

T: Coney Brian?

S: Barrett.

A: When she was being interviewed about going on the team, she used the term sexual preference, and I went arrrrggh.

S: Well that fits. She’s right there – she’s with the religious right, MAGA, Christian Nationalist movement.

T: Yeah, and then they bring you prefer to do what’s wrong, you prefer to be in sin, you’re preferring to serve yourself instead of God, and that’s how they take it down that line.

A: And if you’re preferring, well you can prefer to follow Jesus as opposed to following your lustful desires.

T: Correct.

S: That’s right. Alright, here’s another quote. I have a feeling, Tracey, you’re gonna really like this one. “And to show us the right way to live, he has given us the bible, the most printed and read book in the world.”

T: [laughing] And again, we love that meme with the circular thinking, where everything’s plugged in on itself. Ok, great. It’s the most read book, so it’s gotta be right.

S: Gotta be true. Gotta be true – hey, I read it on the internet. It’s gotta be true. Alright, here’s one that gets me. “In order to get the unchanging truth, we need to look into the manufacturer’s manual, the bible.” So, unchanging? Unchanging, you say? If you really wanna go there with that claim about unchanging then I’m sorry, but never again can you eat things like pepperoni pizza – you’re mixing meat and milk; you can’t have shrimp cocktail, that’s shellfish; you can’t have bacon, and you better double check the labels on all your winter clothing because hey, they can’t combine wool with cotton or synthetic. And – my favorite – you better build a separate addition onto your house so you’ve got somewhere to send your unclean wife for the one week every month when she is menstruating. So, yeah. Oh – wait, wait, you say you’re no longer bound by those particular laws? Well, huh, would that mean that something has – changed? And wouldn’t that be the opposite of “unchanging”? It’s just so ridiculous.

T: It is so ridiculous that there are no words.

S: Yeah. Nuff said. Ok, my last quote that drives me crazy in this subheading. “God has made each of us in a special way, custom designed really. In fact, he holds the only patent on the human race. So if anyone knows how we’re suppose to work the best, he does.” Alright. This is inability to follow basic logic, and it’s just ridiculous. I know I keep using that word ridiculous Tracey, but holy shit, it’s like, dumbfounding. If it’s true – you want to say something?

T: No, I was just gonna say, it is and I think what’s hard for me to get away from too, is the smugness, because there was always such smugness in these types of teaching, and this is so smug. So it’s ridiculous, and it’s smug.

S: And, we Tracey, we were part of it. I’m not just pointing a finger at my ex-husband, the author of this. Or Melody. We were a part of it, we supported it, we’re guilty too. We are. So. And it’s horrible. It’s horrible. But the illogic here is ok, if it is true that God custom designs every single person in a special and intentional way, then I’m gonna say he is one sadistic, sick motherfucker for creating babies with holes in their hearts, or babies that are missing their brains, or babies that are conjoined twins, right? And then ok, in the realm we’re talking about, I would say he takes his cruelty to an even greater level when he creates an intersex child who has both male and female genitalia, and he’s laid down all these supposed laws about sexual absolutes with supposed eternal conscious torture as a reasonable outcome? I mean, that is just – that ain’t somebody who loves and cares. It just isn’t.

A: I think possibly, Martin, at that last quote that you read about the special way, that  he’s doing something that is very common in those right wing conservative circles, to speak against anal sex.

S: Ohhhh.

A: So what they’re saying is if God – I have an article on our site called Willy in a Bottom.

S: Willy in a Bottom.

[laughter]

A: I go through this conversations – which I’ve had with several ministers who are trying to tell me, well God loves everybody, you’re welcome at our church, doesn’t matter what you’ve done – so that means that I can bring my partner that I’m married to. Oh, well, no. and so it will go on, and you keep on going further and further down until you finally go oh, it’s the act. You can’t put a willy in a bottom.

T: Wow.

S: So this is something that, to me, after I got out of my first marriage and I got to just go and have fun, you know, there are definitely purely heterosexual guys who it’s like, you know, in the midst of having fun, if you slip your little pinky up into their bum hole, it brings pleasure to a new level.

A: Yeah.

S: And guess what, for me, guys going down, I’m having fun, and if he slips his little finger up into my bum hole, it brings it to a new level. And they probably can’t – Tracey, what was the book, you know those marriage books, whatever those fucking purity culture books were. I remember some of them talking about anything that a married couple agrees to do together is ok and ordained by God, but they did not call out actual oral sex, they did not talk about that, and they certainly didn’t talk about anal sex. And yeah, they just can’t get that there’s pleasure centers in the body that have nothing to do with reproduction.

A: And what they forget is that not all gay men do anal sex. And some heterosexual couples do.

T: Correct.

A: And lesbians don’t. I always find it amusing when you see some conservative preacher trying to explain this. I saw one on YouTube the other day, he had a nut and a bolt, and he was trying to explain if you screwed the nut in the bolt – yeah, whatever, because he knew what to do. So he screwed it in, because this is the way God made us, and then he put that down and started banging his hands together and says, this is not what God intended.

T: Oh my god.

A: If you are rubbing two bottoms together, you’re doing it the wrong way.

[laughter]

S: Oh my gosh.

T: Oh, the ignorance. You’re exactly right though, it’s so mind numbing that we painted one brush, we painted everybody with one brush, and you’re right.

A: I should also add Tracey, that this is all a problem with the patriarchal society, because being penetrated is perceived as being of the weaker sex, and that’s why people are – in some countries – are being imprisoned or put to death, because if they caught doing that, that’s like well, you’re being like a woman and therefore you deserve the penalty of death. But there’s this aversion, there’s a revulsion for some of them, against anal sex, not realizing it’s not practiced by every gay person, not by lesbians, and heterosexual couples do it as well. So this is a very, very common thing. God did not design us this way.

[laughter]

T: I love that you brought that out. I love that you brought that out, it’s a lot for everybody to think about, especially from the being penetrated aspect tied to patriarchy. That is really poignant.

S: Mmhmm.

A: Yes. If you are the penetrator then you are the master. You’re the one in control. If you’re being penetrated then you’re the weaker, more submissive person. And that is, in their mind, something that a man should never do.

T: That makes so much sense.

S: Yeah. Alright Tracey, want to bring us to the next one?

T: The next subtitle. The Law – and we’re not talking about our laws, but I know my brain is going down that way right now, after everything Anthony said of why the law of our States have such an investment in this – but for this subtitle, it’s The Law, is it For Us or Against Us?

S: Give us the quote Tracey, give us the quote.

T: “To keep us from destroying ourselves and each other, the Lord set up certain laws.” I always love this argument. “He wants the best for us, but we just won’t listen” – Sharon.

S: Yep, do the next one.

T: So, more quote: “It’s because he really cares about us that he did this. Have you ever been at someone’s house where the kids are running all over the place, yelling, fighting, covered in dirt, and the parents just stare at the TV?”

[laughing]

S: Right, so he’s making this argument that you know good parents would be laying down the law, right, that would be a good parent. So here’s my thoughts. Supposedly God’s laws are because he is supposedly a good parent.

T: Such a good parent.

S: And he supposedly wants to keep us from destroying each other. Hey there, yoo hoo, God of the bible up there, how has that been working out for ya, huh? Because if I look at your earth, with all the wars and genocide and poverty and greed, and sexual exploitation and child abuse, and slavery – hellooo, slavery, well, if you’re supposedly this super involved and super loving parent, and your supposed super-laws are what’s going to make everything work out super great, I’d have to say you’re a super fucking failure with all your laws. How is it that your idea of super-good parenting is just to toss out a collection of these farfetched short stories – but of course we only offer it to a small percentage of offspring that have ever lived on the face of the earth – and then you totally poof, disappear. We get no phone calls, we get no video chats, no in person visits. So if you do the math, like this whole idea that he did all this because he cares for us – you do the math, God’s parenting skills are shit.

T: Oh, you’re just a heretic. Those are some heretic words!

[laughter]

S: That’s my take on it.

A: You’re a Jezebel!

[laughter]

S: Thank you! Thank you for that.

T: Oooh.

S: Alright, did my anger go off the chart there too much?

T: No, no but I think it’s because the smugness of the statement and it’s such bad logic, it leads into that. I love that he added covered in dirt – like, what? Since when is that…like, kids go out and play in the dirt, it’s good for them.

S: Alright, read the last quote and we’ll finish up this section. Go ahead.

T: Ok, quote. “We’ve been carefully designed, body mind and soul, for a specific purpose, and have a responsibility to use our lives in the right way. You know what happens…”

[laughter]

T: Sorry. I know what’s coming. “You know what happens to the tip of a pocket knife when you try to use it as a screwdriver or as a pry bar? The tip breaks off.”

[hysterical laughter]

S: Oh god, oh my god, the tip. The tip. The promise is just the tip. Just the tip, man. I literally laughed out loud when I read this, Tracey. I’m like, holy shit, and is this like a hint at this idea that all men, they’re just so afraid that their dick’s falling off, or something bad happening to it. Oh my god.

 A: I’d just like to say my tip’s never fallen off.

[laughter]

S: Yay. I suppose I got giddy when I read this. It’s probably funnier to me than it is to anyone else, but seriously? The tip breaks off.

T: The tip breaks off – no, it makes no logical sense. It is just…

[laughter]

S: Oh shit. Oh shit.

T: It’s really, really funny.

A: I think it’s good to laugh at these things, you know. I’ve experienced PTSD in my life, as many people have that have been through religious trauma. One of the ways that I’ve learned to manage that is to use humor. It takes away the edge of that – there’ll be people here listening today who’ll be going oh my god, just hearing it without the laughter would be incredibly traumatizing and triggering, but you’ve got to laugh. God, you gotta laugh.

S: Mmmm.

T: We do have to laugh, and we also use humor, often irreverent humor, I say, often Jezebel-like humor, I also have to say.

S: Yes.

T: We don’t want to take away the damage that this has done, but I think when you look back at it, it is really bad logic, Anthony.

A: Yeah. It’s not that simple.

S: No.

T: Nope. Next. Don’t be Fooled. “The Lord makes it clear that he never intended men and women to be gay” – and I assume that was made clear through the other boxes that we just read? “And he also makes it clear that those who practice these things cannot be at peace with him or even at peace with themselves.”

S: You know, that’s what Anthony said he found underlined, right Anthony?

A: Yep. That’s exactly it.

T: I was gonna say, this is the one where it goes from really laughable logic to this is insidiously painful to read. “He told us a long time ago, don’t fool yourselves. Those who live immoral lives who are idol worshippers, adulterers or homosexuals will have no share in his kingdom. 1^st Corinthians 6:9-10. And again he warns us, the penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. Leviticus 20:13.” And these are both from the Living Bible, I guess is quoted.

A: Wow.

T: “Because of God’s heart towards us he has given us these warnings for our own good” – there it is again, he’s given us these warnings for our own good, this sadist God that is basically threatening – and these are some serious threats, with eternal damnation, and it’s only for our good.

S: Please don’t love me so much, God. Please stop loving me.

T: Please! And Anthony, these were part of our cracks in our deconstruction, which we haven’t gone into a lot of detail, but it’s specifically when you become a mother and you look at these amazing children, you’re like there’s no effing way that these two statements can be true.

A: Did you know that the word homosexual didn’t appear in an English translation of the bible until 1946?

T: I was hoping you would bring that up, because I know there’s a documentary on that, but I don’t know much, and our listeners might not, so I hope that you will tell us more about that.

S: I did not know that. I have never heard that before.

A: So, in 1946 the New Testament of the RSV, the Revised Standard Version came out, and that is the very first time that the word homosexual appeared in an English translation of the bible. Modern translations from then on used it, but what happened was that they were working on that translation for decades, and it was all really, really old men who were the translators. They had been brought up under that, or lived in that time when mental health professionals had convinced everybody that homosexuality was a sickness, an illness, and could be cured. So there are these Greek words that have never been used, were not used anywhere else, and were not used after this, but Paul coined these Greek words, and for the translators trying to figure out what was going on, they thought this must be that awful homosexuality, because there are things to do with bedding men which are part of that translation, and they can’t figure out really, whether that is about pederasty, older men with younger men; whether it is about the actual young boys prostituting themselves, whether it’s slave owners sending people into sexual slavery. There is no real proper translation of that, because there’s nothing to base it on, but the translators that time said, oh that must be those awful homosexuals, so we’ll put that in the list. You can imagine how that has impacted – I mean, as a young Christian in 1969 reading this, the word homosexual there, it all made sense to me that I’ve gotta do everything I can to stop this, because there’s a penalty of death, it says in the Old Testament.

T: Yeah.

S: Anthony, so was the word homosexual translated in the Old Testament prior to that year?

A: Nup.

S: So what does the King James – I haven’t read King James for ever and ever – what does the King James say?

A: King James, in Leviticus it says man shall not lie with a man as with a woman. That’s two quotes of that, and that’s assumed it’s talking about homosexuality, but it’s actually talking about – it’s with a whole list of pagan practices, temple prostitution. Of course, the other is the Sodom and Gomorrah story.

S: Right.

A: Where we get the word sodomy from, but that’s not about sexual orientation as we know it. That’s about rape.

S: That was rape.

T: Correct.

A: That was rape.

T: And we heterosexual women hate that story for our own reasons – you know, tossing virgins.

A: And my daughters, yeah!

T: Correct.

A: Great.

S: Wow. Ok.

T: And Anthony, if you have some resources for that, I know that – actually, one of my kids had sent me a link to a documentary where I think they were exploring that.

A: Yes, there is a documentary that’s recently come out. The additional thing to that is that what they did was, they tracked down a guy who had written to the translators who had questioned their translation of that verse in 1 Corinthians 6. The head translator actually agreed with him that they got it wrong, but because they’d signed a contract, and because it would be years before there would be anything that would be changed, it didn’t get changed. It’s a fascinating story, but when you think about the implications of that, for decades afterwards, and still now.

T: Till still now.

A: People are reading that.

T: What’s interesting – and I assume these are your notes directly from the article Sharon, the LB – did you add that?

S: Yeah, no, no, it says it’s the living.

T: So I find this very interesting, because we didn’t use the Living Bible hardly at all. We’re the old time religion people, remember? We’re the old King James.

S: No, no, we were New American Standard Bible. NASB was what we quoted all the time.

T: All the time in there. I personally was a King James version because…

S: You were more spiritual.

T: I was more spiritual – you know, what I think it is, is because I always really liked Shakespeare, and there was just always something very Shakespearean about reading the poetry. Anyway, that’s a rabbit hole, but I find it very interesting that for this article, he quotes the Living Bible so he can get the word homosexual.

S: He can get what he wants in there.

T: Yes.

S: Ok, you know what we gotta do Tracey for our – do it on your Insta, we’ll put it somewhere, but let’s pull out all the different versions…

T: Of those verses.

S: Yes, of those scriptures, because I think you’re right. That was – wow. Good catch.

T: We never quoted from the Living Bible!

S: Never! We thought the Living Bible was shit!

T: Interesting.

A: On our website you will find two one hour lectures on this very topic, and on the bible verses. Very simple. Or you can download the pdf and read it, either way, but it goes through all those six passages, Sodom and Gomorrah, Leviticus, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and also Romans chapter 1 as well. It’s all there, and you can do that in two hours.

S: Excellent.

A: Yep.

S: Thank you Anthony. I’m gonna do that – not tonight, because it’s too late, but I’ll do it tomorrow.

A: Yeah!

T: Ok, moving on. The next quote – and again, this may come with a trigger warning everybody, because this is another insidious quote from the article. “The tremendous spread of disease among gays and immoral straights would not exist if we listened to the instructions of God, which are for our own protection, our own good and happiness.”

S: I find that to be so insulting, so callous, so hypocritical, it’s part of that whole – oh my god, it’s like the smugness of the fundamental movement that wants to say see, if you’re sick it’s because God is punishing you. But here’s an interesting thing – I went and looked up some statistics. When’s the last time, or have you ever heard of a preacher spending an hour railing against lung cancer and it being a punishment from God for all the evils of sinful smokers and the tobacco industry? I’ve never heard that either. Now, in 1984 when we published this article, the annual rate of people dying from AIDS in the United States was 3,500. That’s 3,500 people a year, dying. That same year, the statistics are 120,000 dying from lung cancer. So, yeah. All you asshole, self-righteous preachers, you put that in your pipe and smoke it.

A: [chuckling]

T: Well, I also wanted to – because I wanted to bring out this point. As I was also deconstructing and went through my own season of exploration, there is now a concern that women can get throat cancer from the HP-

S: HPV, yeah. Human Papillomavirus.

T: From oral sex. And I was like, what the fuck, right? Why am I now more susceptible to throat cancer because of the pleasures of oral sex?

S: Because you gave a blow job. Or two, or three, or four.

T: If you have to spell it out, yes, Sharon.

[laughter]

T: And so, yeah, there’s disease in this world, and I find it really horrifying that this whole community was blamed as another proof text that see, can’t do that. But I bet you if we tried to go to all heterosexual males and said no more blow jobs now, because it’s too dangerous for the women in your life, I don’t think they would take too kindly to that, do you Anthony?

S: Oh my god, but wait, wait, and maybe it’s the punishment of God, because I don’t remember any scriptures sanctioning oral sex, do you? Saying it’s ok?

T: No.

S: No. You’re not going to get pregnant that way, so it’s not for procreation.

T: I think the heterosexual men need to abstain, because God knows how to protect us best.

A: Manufacturer’s manual.

[laughter]

S: Exactly! Well, Tracey, I don’t want to give it up, because I actually like giving blow jobs, so there.

T: I’m just saying. God knows best, Sharon. God knows best.

A: You girls are very open about your sex lives on…

S: Well, we kind of need to be Anthony, because all this stuff has been shoved down so much for so long…

T: No pun intended. No pun intended.

[laughter]

T: It was not shoved down properly, that’s what we’re saying.

[laughter]

A: But you do know that you have – that the AIDS crisis, and the pandemic that followed, was all blamed on gay people, gay males. There was a scripture from Romans chapter 1 that was used to justify this. It said, because of this, God gave them over to shameful lust, even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty of their error.

S: Mmhmm.

A: And this was the judgement of God upon a people, because homosexuality was being accepted; that laws were changed and we weren’t being criminalized anymore or put to death, or imprisoned, so this was the judgement of God coming, but what people don’t realize – and you can read it and listen to it on my website about that, is that this is actually talking about a pagan practice that was going on in Corinth, where it’s believed that Paul was writing this letter to the Romans. They go through a description about what that pagan ritual was, and that’s exactly what he was talking about. It was an orgy.

S: Ookk.

A: Oh, and they cut themselves. That’s what they did, they used to cut themselves during the actual ceremony.

S: Right, like we said, we’re going to have that reference in our show notes, and people can go in and get better educated.

T: Yeah, I mean, it is terrible that anybody’s being blamed – that’s the other insidious underbelly of all this, is that any sin is getting blamed for a punishment that is reaped on your head, and then of course the AIDS crisis is just catastrophically terrible and sad, and to be blamed for it on top of that is unconscionable.

S: Yep. And guess what. 120,000 people died in 1984 from smoking and lung cancer, only 3,500 died that year from AIDS. So why wasn’t the church railing against the tobacco industry. If they really cared about lives, they would have. That’s not what it was about. Wasn’t about that at all.

A: So, there’s just a little story that I want to share with you about people in the church believing that AIDS was a judgement of God. So Tracey, as you read the book, you’ll know that I had um – I found amazing resolution of my sexuality and my faith, so I actually went back to church for a little while. Hillsong was just near me, and I walked into the church, of course I was known by lots of people, but Frank Houston, that’s Brian’s dad was there, and he said – oh, hello Tony. Um, oh, I heard you were dead. Because there was this rumor going around in the Assemblies of God that I’d given into my homosexuality, homosexuals get AIDS, and people with AIDS die. So the rumor was that I did – people used to go up to my wife, my former wife, and say it’s so sad to hear what happened to Tony. She’d say what? Oh, I heard he died of AIDS.

T: Ohh.

S: Wow.

A: And she said no, I was very much alive.

T: Oh my…

A: That was the mentality.

S: Wow.

A: It was the judgement of God, and if you got AIDS, you died.

S: And you deserved it.

A: You deserved it, yes. Yep.

S: Ugh. Ugh.

A: Yep.

S: Alright. So, this next section, he’s doing – I don’t know, it’s almost like a closing argument. It’s called The Real Problem – but before we read the quotes from that article, to me – I don’t know, this one is just really simple. The real problem is homophobia. That’s the problem. And humans are notorious for fearing anything we don’t understand. And if our parents or our tribe or our pastors have instilled their own fears into us from an early age – that’s the real problem. Sorry, I just wanted to say that before we even get into these fucking quotes. Go ahead Tracey.

T: Ok. “The real problem here is nothing new, and it’s not unique to people faced with homosexual desires. The problem is trying to do what’s right when you feel like doing something else.”.

S: Buuzzhh. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. This is not about doing – this is about being. This is about the essence of who someone is. Oh my god Tracey, I just feel like this is an appropriate time to really feel guilty, because we were guilty. The tragic reality is that a person’s – the essence of who they are, their authentic being, is being rejected and labelled as abhorrent and disgusting. That is the real problem.

T: Yeah. It is the real problem, and they have to keep it there, because they have to keep it in the area of activity. So then it’s just easy to stop.

S: Of course.

T: So, the next quote. “Everyone struggles with desires and temptations for things that aren’t good. Even Jesus struggled with similar temptations. You see, for the most part, desires by themselves aren’t good or bad. Even having strong temptations every day isn’t evil, but it is hard.”

S: [laughing]

T: No pun intended.

[laughter]

S: Literally! I mean, I think it is hard. Literally hard. It’s sort of what Anthony was saying earlier. It’s like, I don’t know, so many of these straight guys – or maybe some of them are closeted gays, but they’re so adamant in railing against homosexuality and what they’re really struggling with is finding their own dick is hard when they don’t want it to be, so the whole sex thing is just blown up out of proportion. They buy into the insanity of purity culture and all that bullshit, so they’re constantly at war with their own humanity, their own sexuality, and what have we heard from the experts? What we resist will persist.

T: Yes, it will. Anthony, I don’t know what you think about this, but this was something as far as in the logic I was trying to awaken to and thinking about. It’s like, most heterosexual men find this a bit repulsive, to have a dick up their anus, and yet they talk about it as though it’s so tempting, it’s just so tempting, the devil’s trying to tempt you – how are the two true? How can you be repulsed if you’re heterosexual, and yet these other people are just so tempted to go do this because it’s sinful and the devil wants you to do this sinful stuff.

A: In most cases heterosexual males having a same sex experience is opportunistic. That’ll be at a time when they’re horny, they’re in a same sex environment, like in the military or in school or college, or something or other like that, and the hormones are raging, so something happens. But there’s not normally the desire to be having same sex sex. But there are opportunities that happen, because men are very visual, men are quickly satisfied, things happen.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So do you think that’s born of that fear that they will find it pleasurable?

A: Yeah, that’s a worry for them yes, because then they’re gay.

S: Right.

A: And they don’t want that. They gotta reject that – it’s not me.

S: You know what I find interesting – so here’s another thing. Think about nipple stimulation, right?

A: You gotta do all of it, don’t you?

S: Well, yes, yes, of course. The idea that a woman’s nipples being stimulated can bring heightened pleasure, heightened arousal, for some women even if it’s done well, bring…

T: Men’s…men – hey, hey, men…

S: Wait, wait, you’re getting ahead of me. And even if it’s done well, can bring to orgasm, but the woman’s nipple is viewed as that’s part of her sexuality, whereas the man’s nipple is just – there. And yet, if their nipples are sensitive and they are stimulated, and it does enhance the sexual experience, they’re not all creeped out or worried about that. I don’t know, it just seems odd to me that they – I say they. I mean, we. Tracey, we bought into it too. This idea that – alright, the very best sex, the only sex sanctioned by God is penis in vagina. Beyond that, anything for pleasure – it’s just so contradictory. I’m rambling. I’m sorry. But it’s just a mess.

T: It is a mess, but I think it really is important to go back to what Anthony said before, that preference versus orientation I think is really, really key in this.

S: Right. Right! Right.

T: Here’s another lovely quote. “A person with a weight problem may love hot fudge sundaes. They may have loved them as far back as they can remember. Can they just decide to hate hot fudge sundaes? Could you? Of course not. But they can decide to yield to God and seek his help to do what is right, despite the desires in the opposite direction.”

A: See, this is where a heterosexual male doesn’t get it.

[laughter]

A: Because, it’s not about choosing which direction you go. You either are or you aren’t. So if I say to Martin, so could you choose not to be heterosexual?

S: Right.

A: Could you choose to not notice that attractive woman with the beautiful breasts? Could you not get aroused watching a television show where you’re seeing a woman’s naked body? You can’t not do that, because you’re heterosexual. So it’s not about taking desires in the opposite direction. It’s just a ridiculous analogy, but obviously written by a heterosexual male.

S: Yeah. And I think the point that’s being made is that ok, you can love it and want it all you want. So it’s like, somehow the wanting is not sin, but the doing is, but then doesn’t that contradict supposedly the things of Jesus, you know, if a man lusts after a woman in his heart, he’s committed adultery, and the sins of the heart? Again, it’s that weird fine line of saying well, if you never do it, you’re not homosexual. Like you were saying Anthony, about how they’re wrongly looking at it as it’s all about the sex act, when it’s not. It’s about the essence of who you are.

T: And yet, fundamentalist teachings do promise a transformation of desires, right? I delight to do your will. And that’s where it gets even harder, because it’s like, ok, I can maybe not do this act, but how do I change my desires?

S: Right. Or, live with them for the rest of your entire life, and be tortured. And somehow that’s ok, because a good and loving God says that’s ok. Ugh. Ugh.

A: I think too, just before this was written in 1984, when there was still the changes possible, the message that was being promoted. As this whole thing evolved, conversion therapy moved into a space about celibacy and suppression, so what we’re reading about here – there will be listeners here today saying well, it’s ok to be gay, you should never, ever act on it, which is what Martin’s saying here. But that’s just as damaging, because you are shutting down a very fundamental part of what it means to be a human being. It is through that, your sexual orientation, that as I mentioned before, you experience love. You experience intimacy, you experience affection. You’re experiencing possibly having a relationship for the rest of your life, and you’re being denied this because of some religious teaching.

S: I think that’s why there’s a lot of attraction to historically joining monasteries, right?

T: Mmhmm.

A: Mmm. But then you’ve got that other thing, if your right hand offends you, cut it off. Well, the left-handed people, they got away with it.

S: Oh god. Oh my god, oh my god. I love that. Did you ever see the movie – what was this movie. It was the one with Colin – oh. Let me remember this.

T: Yes, I saw it and I can’t think of it.

S: So there’s this movie with this British actor, Colin – I’ll have to look it up. He’s stuck in a phone booth, and there’s like, this terrorist. And this prostitute comes up and she wants to use the phone, and he slams it and she’s yelling you hurt my hand! You hurt my dick hand! That’s my dick hand!

[laughter]

S: So yes, there’s a preference for which hand, without a doubt. Alright, shall we jump into the battleground?

T: Ok, the next quote from The Battleground box. “When we give into the temptation of the enemy, and here it is, yes, the devil is really real. We can’t blame God for making us that way.”

S: So I really want to hear from you, Anthony, about this whole – oh my god, it must have been so traumatic, this exorcism thing, but before you do, I was thinking about this today and this is playing on the fears of the devil and his demons, and them getting their hooks literally into us. I wondered about this, like, ok, if I were gay and if I believed that it was the devil, because whoever convinced me of it, and it’s this idea of how am I going to get this out of me, and if I don’t get this out of me, I’m going to hell for all of eternity – I just imagine that like, if a doctor told you that your body is riddled with hundreds of tiny malignant tumors and if they aren’t removed within hours you’re going to be dead, but these things are invisible, and you are powerless. You’re powerless to get them out of your body. How terrifying! I have no idea, because I’ve never dealt with something like this, but yeah, all this devil and demons shit. A whole ‘nother level of trauma, so – ugh.

A: I can’t go into all the details, but Tracey would have read this – when I was in bible college I started to have problems, and you know, I was struggling. When I finally went to the college Principal to tell him what was going on, and he kept questioning me, what’s the problem, and I kept spiritualizing it, I’m fighting with the devil and all this sort of stuff. It finally came out that I was a homosexual, and I told him that I’d already been trying since at least three years to overcome it. Deliverance was really big in New Zealand at this time, so there was this top exorcist in Auckland, and he said to me I think you need deliverance. I wanted him to pray for me, but no, he sent me to this top exorcist. Well, it would have been at least a week before I was taken up to Auckland to go through this session, and I remember thinking about – I got this thing inside me. It’s like the Alien movie – you’ve got this thing inside you. What if it starts to manifest itself in the service, and I start screaming or writhing on the floor? What’s going to happen to me? When you’re a young 20 year old, this is really, really quite a frightening prospect.

T: Yes!

S: Oh my god. Yeah. And – I don’t know, I know Tracey, that I believed there was a devil, and that there were demons, but for whatever reason I was never really terrified about it. Maybe I didn’t take it that seriously. But we have heard stories, and heard from listeners and others who, the fear of the devil and the demons was constant, and was intense. It’s just cruel.

T: And abusive. Yeah. Sharon, you probably – because you weren’t in the school, we had several – we wouldn’t have called them exorcisms, but you know, Youth With A Mission was very big on this too, of laying hands and casting out demons, so we did our share of casting out demons out of our fellow Last Days Ministries staff members and students.

S: Ugh. We were idiots. We were fucking idiots.

T: Yeah, and if you’re young, and frightened – like Anthony’s saying, he’s just 20, and you have these people that are older, and you respect them, and that’s the answer for why you can’t seem to be free from whatever it is that you’re struggling with – it’s a very horrifying thought. And then what’s even more horrifying, and Anthony goes into it in his book, what happens when you go through that, and that doesn’t work?

A: Yeah. More disappointment. More failure. More what’s wrong with me. I don’t have enough faith. I must love my sin more than I love God.

T: Right.

S: Oh god.

T: Which goes into our next bible box so easily. The heading is Guilt. “Some of us hate that word guilt, but guilt serves a very good purpose. The very presence of guilt proves that we can do what is right. It’s when we can do what is right, and we don’t do it, that we feel guilty.” Oh, not so, not so Martin. “We feel that way because we know we should be doing something else.”

S: Yes. So, I know I’ve told this story before on some other episode, but it is really, really relevant here. My therapist, he was raised culturally Jewish, and his mother never served pork. When he went away off to college, he talks about how in the cafeteria they offered ham sandwiches. He was interested, and he ate one. To this day, when he thinks about ham, he has emotions of guilt. Now, did he commit a crime to feel guilty about? No. Is there anything intrinsically wrong or evil with eating ham? No. So, his feelings of guilt prove absolutely nothing about this idea of something being right or wrong, let alone heaven or hell, what do you deserve. They prove nothing! What they do prove is that he was culturally conditioned to believe something that is not true. So even now, 50 years later, he intellectually knows there is nothing wrong with eating ham, but he still feels that twinge. That is false guilt. He still definitely enjoys the ham sandwiches and puts up with it, but I’ve got to agree with one thing in that quote above. Legitimate guilt is useful. It can help us realize, like if we’ve violated our own internal moral compass, it can cause us to make amends to people we’ve heard. So it’s a helpful emotion designed to help us revise our behavior. But that is not what is going on here with this whole “Christian assault” on homosexuality. This is about attacking the essence of who a person is. I know we’re saying it over and over again, but who they are in the core of their being. When they are attacked, when anyone is attacked for who they are at their core, what they really feel now is shame, and shame is a toxic, self-condemnation that we feel about who we are. That Tracey, is the biggest crime. It’s the biggest crime of all, of how the church, including us, all those years ago, we heaped shame upon these people in the LGBTQ community, and there’s no excuse. There’s no excuse.

T: No. No, there’s not.

A: That’s a good analogy. A really good analogy, Sharon.

S: Yeah, I got a really good therapist.

[laughter]

S: Alright.

T: Can I be Free? “The Lord moves in different ways in each person’s life. Some people are instantly delivered from the power of these desires when they cry out to the Lord. Others are set free as they continue to follow Jesus, making right choices, and allowing his power to release them from years of wrong thought patterns and actions.”

S: How convenient.

T: How convenient!

S: How fucking convenient. You dangle this idea of instant deliverance, and you also follow it up with the idea that freedom only comes with time, and maybe it’s a long time, like your whole fucken life, and it’s conditional. You, of course, are going to have to make the right choices. You have to allow God’s power in your life. You have to follow the way you should. So, it seems to me that this freedom is now totally dependent on your hard work, and not compassionate intervention from God, that you’re crying out to, that you’re on your knees every day, in tears and agony saying God, take this away from me, and he doesn’t.

T: And the stakes are high, right, because it’s not just oh, you know, shame shame – it’s eternal damnation which he lays out before us. So the stakes are really, really high.

S: Right.

T: In his quote that is so insidious, it’s your hard choices, but really what he’s saying is how good are you at really beating your humanity out of yourself, is really what it’s going to come down to.

S: You’re right. Hey Anthony, when you’ve talked with folks who’ve gone through journeys similar to yours, have you ever heard of anyone who’s later acknowledged their reality, who felt that they had had instant deliverance? I know we’re going to talk about this Sy Rogers thing or whatever, but is there anyone you have met who said yeah, I really was set free instantaneously?

A: Nup.

S: So it’s bullshit. It’s basically bullshit?

A: Yep. You’re talking about going from gay to straight?

S: Yeah.

A: Yeah, nah. The thing is, you go through these peaks and troughs, so you know, for me there was not a time that I wasn’t sexually active, even while I was in the ministry and when I was married.  I think the longest I went without sex with a guy was about 12 months. But it was always there. There’d be this battle going on, and then you know, I’d have a spiritual breakthrough and after the spiritual breakthrough I would be on a high, and I would have a degree of victory.

S: Mmhmm.

A: Yeah. What we’d call victory. Success. It was in those times that I went oh thank God, it’s finally gone. There’d be some new doctrine, there’d be some new concept about how to overcome temptation, or something or other, and I’d think yeah now I’ve got it. That’s what people did initially with their testimonials about them now no longer being gay. It was their behavior that stopped; it wasn’t their orientation.

S: Right.

T: Well, onto another quote from this. This is the last quote from the main article from this section, Can I Be Free. “Does all this sound too foolish? Too simple for such a deep problem?” Well, at least he acknowledges that, Sharon.

S: [laughing]

T: “Then you haven’t seen the power of God.”

S: Yeah, neither has he.

T: Yeah. “For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing, foolishness, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. The foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is strong than men. 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.” Now, Martin follows the scripture. “I’m not saying it’s going to be easy. It will probably be a battle all the way, but Jesus came to us and went through horror, overcoming the enemy so that we could live a life of peace with God once again.”

S: Circular reasoning at its best. If something is obviously utterly illogical, it’s really because we are just too evil and foolish to understand the true logic of God. I mean, it’s just – yeah. That’s what it is. It’s the playbook for all cult leaders, all genocidal dictators, and definitely the bible dude called Paul. It’s just the way to brush aside any logic, and tell you to stop thinking.

T: Yeah, and it’s easy to do when your ministries are toward young people. These are people out of high school, just entering into college before they’ve really been able to learn logic and philosophy and thinking, so it’s really easy to do.

S: Mmhmm.

A: And it should be mentioned as well, for many gay men and lesbians as well, that are caught up in this God can change me, God can make me straight – all that teaching, is that many of us invested years of our lives. I have emails from – I’ve worked with a guy who came out at 63. Married with kids, you know. These stories – the emails I get from readers, they’ll say oh my god, your story is my story. But some of them have spent literally their entire lives believing this stuff, and doing everything they could to try and change, or just giving in to a point of reluctant acceptance, but still believing that they can’t be themselves. There’s a testimonial on our website from a guy who said I believed Sy Rogers when I was 17, and the next 30 years of my life were wasted, fighting, fighting, fighting.

S: Oh my god.

A: And never being happy.

S: Oh god. Oh god, oh god, I am so sorry Anthony. That Sy Rogers thing, that was us, and we’re going to go into that in just a minute.

T: Mmm.

A: Mmm.

T: So that’s all we’re going to cover over the main parts of the article but there is an inset box in the article called A Word To The Church. And it says “Jesus said that he didn’t come for the healthy, but for the sick. However, it seems that the only people wanted in some church are those who ‘have it all together’. Please don’t shy away from those who are struggling with these kinds of desires. They’re sometimes made to feel like social lepers because of the pride and the aloofness of others in the church, and so are driven away. We are our brothers’ keepers, and we are to restore such a one in the spirit of gentleness. Galatians 6:1.” And this goes to your point at the beginning Sharon, where you were talking about how it contradicts itself, so I think this is an attempt to say hey church, be gentle, but basically say that they’re all sick, and then you kinda beat up the church for treating them like lepers, but you just kinda went through a whole piece that basically says they are lepers, and I find that to be part of the whole cognitive dissonance that is so prevalent in these spaces, that we’ve now come to realize, but I thought that was worth pointing out. Kinda be nice, but still be their keeper, and make sure they hold the line and get free.

S: Yep.

A: If your basis is error, everything that you do beyond that will also be an error.

S: That is so true. So, I got one final thought on this, you know, how the church just loses their collective fucking minds over the idea of homosexuality. I was thinking about the big hairy sins that are named, and who is harmed by these sins. So, you’ve got blasphemy, right. That was like, punishable by death. Who is harmed by blasphemy? Well, it’s this invisible, non-existent deity. That’s who’s harmed by blasphemy – so, no one, really. Who is harmed by murder? Yeah, somebody’s dead. Who’s harmed by robbery? A human you can see. They lose their property. Who is harmed by assault? A human. Who is harmed by rape? A human. Who is harmed by homosexuality? If you have two consenting people, who is harmed? No one is harmed. No one is harmed. But we, as Christians in the church, have been doing way too much harm, and that’s enough on that lovely article.

A: Hmhmm. But can I just add to that, that the harm that many in the church previously – thank god it’s changed in some parts – believed about homosexuality was that it wasn’t about harming other people or themselves, so much as if we accept this, what’s that going to do to our society? Because we have built (supposedly) our society on male and female, heterosexual couple, procreation, and if we accept homosexuality – which is an abomination – then that’s going to destroy all of society and they have an agenda to overthrow us anyway.

S: Which goes back to the real problem, it’s homophobia.

A: Yeah.

S: It’s unfounded fear of something you don’t understand. It’s just fear. Ridiculous fear.

T: And hatred. I don’t know if fear is the bottom of hatred, but there seems to be even more at play than just fear, because there is a political movement of hatred out there.

A: And all fuelled by ignorance.

S: Yes. Yes. Ignorance and arrogance – what a beautiful combination.

A: Mmhmm. Uh huh.

S: Alright.

…

S: Listeners, thank YOU for being here too. This is such an important issue and for many people it can literally be about life and death.

T: Mmhmm. And speaking of life and death Sharon, you prophesied that there would only be two episodes!

[laughter]

T: You know, I’m joking about it, but I am so grateful to Anthony for hanging in there with us, that we were able to capture so much.

S: Yeah.

T: So now it’s not just two, it’s three episodes.

S: Well, ok yes, I’m very, very happy it’s three episodes, yes. It was pulled out of five hours plus of recording, but since I am the false prophetess, maybe I guess I deserve to be stoned?

T: [laughing] You know, that reminds me. A few years ago I took a couple of my kids to Salem Massachusetts, and bad mother that I am, I got my high school kid a shirt that said I Got Stoned in Salem.

S: That’s great.

T: Little play on words there, so maybe you can ask Dave to break out some edibles this evening, so you can officially be stoned.

S: Ohhh, great idea! Great idea. I’m gonna go for it. Oh my goodness. Alright so Tracey we’ll go back for a little bit to this heavy part on this whole topic. Since our conversation with Anthony and thinking of how gracious he is, and what a bridge builder he really is, there’s this question I’ve been pondering, that I was thinking I might be able to start asking folks – in whatever segment of the anti-gay camp they’re in. Maybe they’re hardcore, maybe they’re just kinda fringe, and I’m thinking like, asking this question with curiosity and sincerity, and…

T: Ok well, sincerity yes, uh, I think you’re definitely going to be opening up a can of worms. I think the curiosity part would be really hard, and it is hard for us, because so many times we know what they’re thinking, and the case that they’re making against this because folks, we made it as well. That’s what this whole podcast has been about. We’ve examined the case that people have made. So that curiosity is hard, Sharon.

S: Well, you’re right, because yeah, we did. We bought it, and we sold it. We did both. I know I need to keep working on – what is it, that gentle spirit…

T: Gentle and QUIET spirit, Sharon!

S: Well, I can’t keep quiet. I can’t. But tolerance – it’s funny, it’s not tolerance of a different lifestyle. I hate that. It’s not even lifestyle, right, it’s orientation. It’s not to have tolerance of another person’s identity of who they are. It’s tolerating beliefs that I know can lead to so much destruction. And it’s hard. But the thing that makes it even harder is when people are just so damn smug and arrogant! Ignorance is one thing, but arrogance – I just hate it. I hate that part.

T: You know the irony though, in all of this, Sharon, is that when some of the haters have come for us, that’s the exact thing they’ve been accusing us of, of having this proud and arrogant attitude, and of course in their definition, it’s because we dare to think ourselves more important than God. I know that you and I wouldn’t say that, but that’s their definition. Our beliefs now are putting them above what the word of God says. Anyway, that’s a little bit of a rabbit hole to get down into that theology, but as I said earlier, sometimes these definitions in these spheres just get turned upside down and inside out, and you’re right. It is really hard when you’re facing that smug arrogance.

S: Mmhmm. Alright, well, back to the question that I was originally thinking I wanted to start asking these folks, something like: I’m curious. Help me understand. How exactly do you feel that you personally are being hurt or damaged if two same sex people love each other and share a life together? How do you feel that harms you? I don’t know, I’m hoping that maybe could be a non-threatening way to prompt a little bit of them starting to question the why of their position, and maybe it’ll be a little crack in the wall. I don’t know.

T: Maybe. Maybe for the right person, but I wouldn’t count on it with some of the hardcore ones, because immediately my head goes to well, when God is hurt, we’re all hurt, Sharon, so if they’re not willing to really open up their brain, that’s…

S: Right.

T: That’s the answer that goes in that little box.

S: Because that’s poor Jesus sitting in the cafeteria all by himself with nobody to be his friend.

T: All by himself. Right. But honestly, everyone, if you do have friends who may still be in this camp of ignorance and homophobia – or maybe people who are still suppressing who they really are because they’re still coming out of some of that mindset, please consider sharing this series with them. You’ll find so many great resources from the Ambassador and Bridge Builders International – that’s Anthony Venn-Brown, and you can hear it in his voice. There is just so much desire in him to be able to do the part that maybe we can’t do as well, Sharon, being [laughing] – just tolerant and kind. We do try to be tolerant and kind, but the Ambassadors and Bridge Builders International at abbi.org.au, and Anthony’s must-read book, alifeofunlearning.com, and that again resonates – even if you weren’t struggling to push down your sexual orientation, so many of us have had a life of unlearning, so there’s a lot that resonates with everybody – everybody in our listening audience.

S: Mmhmm. Quick reminder again that you can connect with us and with others in our Facebook group, Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community.

T: And you’ll find a lot of stuff by following our Instagram account, feetofclay.cultsisters.

S: Thank you so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next week with part 3!

T: Cos we recorded five hours, Sharon. Five hours!

S: Five fucking hours!

T: Ohhh.