This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 039 – The Demise of Keith Green’s Last Days Ministries Cult – Part 3

 

May 8^th, 2024

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: We are continuing our series [in a spacey voice] The Demise of Last Days Ministries! Tracey, I’m going off script right this moment, ok [laughing]

T: Mmhmm!

S: I just want to tell you how thankful I am, to you and for you. This has been really special, really impactful. It feels like we’re doing something to help repair all the damage we did all those decades ago, and for so long. And I just love you, and I want to tell you that before we even get going today.

T: Awwww, thank you! I love you too, and I am so glad that you said yes. You know they have those shows, Yes to the Dress? I’m glad you said yes to the pod!

S: Yes to the pod. Ok.

T: Cos I was gonna do it, I was gonna do it and I did it, I started it, and I’m so glad that you’re here on this journey. Your stories are so much better than mine.

S: Oh that is not true. Not true at all. Alright, I’m going back on script now, ok? Or our bullet points. So, in our last episode, Tracey, we touched on some of the cultural influences from the 70s that led to us – and god knows how many countless others – it got us going, embarking on these radical Jesus trips. We had mentioned three movies; Jesus Christ Super Star, Godspell, and Brother Sun Sister Moon. The first one is still one of my favorite movies and musical scores of all time. All time. All time! And listeners, if you haven’t seen it yet, you must. You must rent it or buy it. You must see it.

T: Thus commandeth Sister Sharon.

S: Of course! Of course. Now those other two movies I had never seen them before, ever, Tracey.

T: I know. I can’t believe it.

S: I know, I know. Crazy huh. So this past week I rented and watched them both, and I wanted to circle back to you with my impressions and thoughts on the movies.

T: So that’s awesome, and I know I posted several clips this week, to advertise our first error that we had done and do you know – is it Keith James? I’m going to have to look it up, but he does that whole comedian series of it was the 90s, and he has it…

S: Oh yeah, yeah! He’s great.

T: So great. So I kept thinking of course, in my head, it was 70s!

[laughter]

T: There’s so much from that time period that just bleeds right into the Jesus People movement.

S: Totally.

T: So it was definitely the 70s.

S: Alright. So the first movie I watched was Brother Sun, Sister Moon.

T: I am so glad! I am so glad because you have not been able to relate to me on that movie. That was probably the most impactful one of all of the movies for me, when I saw it at 10 years old.

S: Wow. Yeah. It was – well, these are my thoughts on it. First of all, it was incredibly beautiful cinematography – but that’s with you expect, right, from Zeffirelli. The Italian landscapes, the historic architecture. Some of the scenes looked to me like they would be a Renaissance interpretation painting of this medieval splendor, and the idyllic…

T: Yes, I think that’s exactly what he was going for. The Director.

S: Yeah. He did it. He nailed it. Now, there were some decent riding scenes on horses, especially early on, bareback when Francesco…

T: Went right over my head, didn’t notice that.

[laughter]

S: He’s riding the white Andalusian Spanish horse – now that would have gotten me, Tracey. That would have made it my favorite movie, had I seen it. There was also early on the naked Francesco, so I’m going ooooh, borderline a little homoerotic? I mean, it was kinda cool.

T: Yes. So much so. And I guess now we’re looking at it – or you’re looking at it from 60+ years old, but at 10 years old….

S: Right, right.

T: Very different perspective.

S: Oh, and totally I can see how that scene where Clare, who’s in this virginal white dress at that water side, where I think she’s going in to get baptized, as I’m watching it she’s in that white gown and I’m going alright, are we going to be seeing nipples through the white cloth? But no, she was offering her hair to be cut – but the sensuality of it, right?

T: I was just gonna say, it’s still an extraordinarily sensual scene.

S: Yeah, it really is. And then there was the whole romanticism of this radical shift, when Francesco is rejecting the wealth and the materialism of his family. You see this growing bond of brotherhood, and they’re singing together and helping the poor, and they’re feeding the hungry and taking care of the ill and injured – and still through all of that you get those eye contacts between Clare and Francesco.

T: That’s the part I thought you would laugh hysterically through, because – I mean, it was so…these two celibate people who have a vow of celibacy, have the most sensual relationship that completely lays the groundwork of what I expected to have when we started to have those spiritual relationships. It was like, yes, I’m expecting that. Of course I’m living in Italy at the time this movie is being shown. It was on an Army base, we didn’t have American television, so we had access to movie theatres quite often, they were very cheap for the ones of us living on base, so that was stunning. All the things that you said – and of course, that’s part of my schooling. We’re studying Renaissance art, we’re studying the geography of the place, and you layer in this spiritual relationship and it was impactful to me Sharon, super impactful.

S: Mmm.

T: When I had first started my Insta page, which was before we first started our podcast, I did go back and refresh my memory to see was it as impactful as I remembered, and it actually was. I mean, when she tosses her hair forward and he is snipping it with almost like, spiritual orgasm energy…

[laughing]

S: I know! Ok listeners, I do think you should go watch this movie too. This one and Godspell, because it reveals where we were at in our heads, that these things had so much power over us. Alright, back to the movie. This picture of Francesco – it was that contrast, right, looking at the problems and injustices in society, and then the answer – the spiritual answer that he finds.

T: Yeah so, even going back and looking at this again, it was the 70s, and I think what’s so – I don’t know, impactful to me when I look back is, all of culture was supporting this message. It wasn’t just a few strange ones of us that went off, you had the entire culture supporting this. You would often hear, I think it’s even the picture book series for the kids that says the greatest story ever told, which is often said about the Jesus story. As we started deconstructing, I think people have started to call it the greatest lie ever told. I’ve thought about that, because at that time when we were coming of age, the entire adult sphere is in support of this message.

S: Right.

T: I, of course, am living in Italy, my schooling is in support of this, I’m learning about the history of the Renaissance, I have geography where we’re taking field trips to all these cathedrals. I have my parents, who I think originally had wanted us to maybe be able to pick our own religion – my mom had her own spiritual trauma from Catholicism, but through a series of events I had to go to a Catholic school, which meant I needed to get baptized in order to attend, and start attending Catechism. So every adult in my sphere was basically confirming was that this story of Jesus was real. And I mean, I look back at that and go well of course, from a child’s eyes, why would I doubt that? Why would I doubt that this greatest story ever told was not real? I think what my parents didn’t count on was how much I would take this message that they said I had to do in order to attend Catholic church, and I took it as the truth, and it took deep root inside of me.

S: Right. Yeah. And my upbringing was similar – not, I think, to the extreme that yours was, but I wound up in Parochial school and doing first confession and first communion. So what I accepted and bought into was the basic idea, God is real, Jesus is his Son, he had to die and rise from the dead to save us from our sins and from hell. So that was like – that wasn’t even questioned. I just believed it was real.

T: Not even questioned.

S: And I do want to point out Tracey though, I think that even those who are raised with a – what I would call nominal, culturally Christian experience in childhood, going to Sunday school, I now can see I think there’s great harm in that. I really do, because it sets someone up to believe the bible is the word of God and it’s all true, and Jesus is real and he died and rose again, and you’re a sinner, and you need him. That is the message, so that later when you really begin questioning the meaning of life, if you’ve already accepted that as the baseline truth, well you’re totally primed to go into extremism like we did. Totally primed for it.

T: Totally primed for it, and it actually is the logical step forward, because you have all these adults in your world telling you that – you look at the symbolism of the Catholic church, even the bleeding Jesus on a cross, which I know the Protestants have moved away from but you go into the Catholic churches, it’s like this is a brutal depiction of what it means for us to be able to be saved. Somebody had to have a brutal death for that. I think that is powerful, and you have a child black and white thinking that says if all of this is true, then why wouldn’t you live it to its fullness?

S: Right. If it’s true, go all the way. And that’s what we did. That’s part of like what this movie depicts, when Francesco is – and I’m saying Francesco, he’s known as Francis in English, and Francois to his mother in the movie, and his father calls him Francesco because of course they’re in Italy. But anyway.

T: Yes, to clarify that, that’s Saint Francis of Assisi who is the great Patron Saint of the Catholic church, and in almost every garden you will see a statue of Saint Francis, usually with a bird because he was known for being kind to the animals in an age that we can understand they were not kind to animals.

S: Which – I gotta tell you Tracey, this is really funny, when I was watching it I forgot that this was Francis of Assisi and the whole animal story, so there’s that one scene where he’s rebuilding the church and they come in with animals and somebody comes in with a lamb to lay it on the altar and I’m thinking – wait, are they going to cut its throat and sacrifice it? Cos I had forgotten.

T: Yeah, which they could have, in another Testament – right?

S: In another Testament. But anyway it depicts what it was that we felt attracted to, when we wanted to leave everything behind and follow Jesus, and for us the path was following Keith Green at Last Days Ministries.

T: Absolutely. I really wanted you to see that scene where Francis is standing before his dad, who is the symbol of materialism, and everything we were trying to reject in our age, and how he takes all of his dad’s work basically, this expensive cloth, and throws it away. And what does his dad do? Completely smacks him. I mean, pretty much like, completely beats him down. Again, that’s setting the stage of if you’re going to follow Jesus you’re going to have enemies in the world, even your own family. Even your own family, to go off and follow Jesus.

S: Yes. That was a little seed that Keith planted in my mind, right from the beginning, from the time I was 14 years old and just getting saved. I remember him saying your parents may kick you out cos now you’re loving and following Jesus, but you can come live with me. That was like, day one.

T: Yeah. Day one.

S: More to talk about that later. Anyway. I did like this one line that the Pope says – which I’m sure isn’t historical at all, but he says something like with our emphasis on original sin, we have forgotten original innocence. And that, Tracey, that looking at understanding our original authentic child. That is the state of each and every one of us as we enter the world.

T: Yeah, and I think you have to go down a deep theological hole to understand how that got turned upside down, but yes that’s a great, great line. I thought of you when he said that line, as far as that original innocence,

S: Original innocence. Yeah. Ok, next movie. Godspell. I was familiar, because I had been in the high school choir ensemble, and one of our programs was we sang almost all of the songs from Godspell. It was cool, and I have to say ever since I watched that I have the earworm, [singing] Prepare ye the way of the lord [laughing]

T: Yeah, and I’ve posted that clip a couple of times on our Instagram as well. It’s a great song, it actually is.

S: It is. It’s a little redundant, but yes it is. Now, I gotta tell you something though Tracey. John the Baptist, the actor, the character – now that was the cool dude with the cool song, right?

T: He was, he was definitely the most attractive, and when I rewatched some of the clips, I was like oh yeah, that’s right in keeping with the Jesus Christ Superstar vibe of the rockstar persona, and when we say that Keith Green walked out of the casting of one of these musicals, definitely you can see that character, for sure.

S: Totally. So, one of the things the movie does – and again, it points to the mindset. It’s a big contrast, so the opening scenes you’re seeing the congestion and the individual isolation – it takes place in New York City, right, so the rudeness and the anger and the noise and the traffic – all this stuff, police sirens and jackhammers and college students and workers – so there’s this bleakness that it’s painting, and then you get a glimpse of John the Baptist, this charismatic cool dude. All these folks that were in the mundane everyday world, they leave everything and start following – first John the Baptist…

T: (Who Sharon would follow, cos he’s hot and he has a cool song)…

S: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, and you see them dancing and there’s this idea of freedom, and love and joy and promise…

T: Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

S: Yeah, and then Jesus comes on the scene and they’re all having fun together and there’s this camaraderie, and they’re painting a drab world. Literally painting this drab, industrial world with these bright colors, and the flowers, and the feeling of joy. But Tracey, I gotta ask you. Why is Jesus in this movie this awkward, gawky, looks like he just is out of his teens, he’s like this androgenous clown! And not even a great voice. This is to me a huge casting and costuming problem. Huge.

T: Oh my god. I guess you don’t probably know who Victor Garber is right, that’s the actor who plays him.

S: No, I don’t.

T: He has gone on to do amazing things and probably – did you ever watch the Titanic?

S: The movie with DiCaprio?

T: Yeah, the movie.

S: Yeah, I saw it.

T: So the designer of the ship – he plays that part. I guess I don’t know, I knew the actors better, I’m like oh my god, that’s Jesus from Godspell. He’s got this Superman t-shirt throughout it all…

S: Ridiculous.

T: I think that’s part of…

S: Ridiculous!

T: …the artistic licence that they’re giving. And furthermore, when you start looking at all the different people who have played Jesus, I think – we used to call it the world, right, the world had a hard time portraying meek and mild with this other side of Jesus’ personality.

S: Mmhmm.

T: Which I think it’s much easier to portray John the Baptist as this wild character, so sometimes I think they have a hard time getting and capturing what drew us to Jesus, so I think that’s why Jesus of Nazareth, which is also a Frank Zeffirelli movie – oh, he’s one of my favorites because of his gorgeous blue eyes, and of course Jesus Christ Superstar – that’s the Jesus that we’re attracted to, and who kind of reminds us of that character, Sharon?

S: Hmmm, who might that be?

T: Who might that be??

S: Keith Gordon Green! Right?

T: Keith Gordon Green, because he actually does that part well – that intensity, that sincerity.

S: Yeah.

T: He does. Without the Superman t-shirt.

S: Without the Superman t-shirt. Or the clown shoes. Thank you.

[laughter]

T: But I think you bring up a relly great point that at the time I don’t think I was able to see the contrast of the grey versus the artistic – but again, that was the 70s. Coming out of the Vietnam War, the adults seeming like they’re caught up in this whole world machine, and the youth are coming on the scene saying we want love, we want peace, we want joy, we want something more, and thus the Jesus People.

S: Thus the Jesus People. Well, in the movie of course there’s the songs, and there are also – they mime and playact the various parables of Jesus. There’s a bunch of them, I won’t go into it but one thing I will say is they do the sheep and the goats, and the whole thing about anything not done for them (you know, these least of these) you did not do it for me, and you will go into eternal punishment. And then, no man can serve God and money, and it just brings me back Tracey, to this whole craziness of Evangelicals today and the embracing of the MAGA agenda, how they treat immigrants, and how they treat social justice, and I’m like – yeah, bring me back to that Jesus of old, because that dude’s got it right.

T: Yeah, and it’s really hard, even at the beginning when I started the Insta page, before the podcast, I started pulling up some stuff of the Jesus People, and I was like, how the hell did we get from this happy peace, love, let’s all bond together in community, to what we became, which was that internal darkness.

S: Right. There was a song, and as I’m watching it they’re dancing on top of this building, you can see in the distance the older New York skyline. I can recognize in the Empire State Building in the distance, and I’m wondering while I’m watching this, which building are they on top of, and could it be – and the camera pulls back, and yes Tracey, they’re dancing on top of one of the Twin Towers, and that was just a – wow, like, goosebumps moment.

T: Mmm yes. I recently posted this week alone the clip of when they’re skipping behind the Jesus figure, and I was like – we didn’t do a lot of skipping at Last Days Ministries, but I think the intention was there, right. We’re going to all follow – they’re singing a song about building a city, and it’s got that intention, it’s got that excitement, and then they skip skip skip, and they actually come into this caged area, and it was like – this is the symbolism that we actually did. We skipped along and then caged ourselves in.

S: We did.

T: I wouldn’t have gotten that back then when I watched it, but it was very clear to me this time around.

S: Very clear. Some of the little random things that struck me, they’re doing street theatre right, acting out these parables and oh my god Tracey, that’s what YWAM and various youth groups would do. It’s just so cringe. It’s this idea that we’re so relevant we’re doing something but it’s like, eww no, it’s awful.

T: It’s so cringe, and there’s listeners who were once a part of YWAM who will completely recognize The Toymaker and Son.

S: Oh yeah. Oh god. Ok, there’s my irreverent side. There’s one point where they’re on the water, they’re rowing a boat and Jesus is at the end, right, you know the guy who keeps the time and he’s yelling stroke, stroke, stroke, but he’s got his legs spread wide, and his hand is gripping onto a cleat or something right between his legs and his crotch, and he’s rocking back and forth yelling stroke, stroke, stroke!

[laughter]

T: I’ll have to go back and look at that. I don’t think that’s your cynical side, Sharon, I think that’s your downright naughty side.

[laughter]

S: Yeah. Alright, it ends back with the crowds in New York City and daily life, and that song Day by Day, oh dear Lord three things I pray, to see thee more clearly, to love thee more dearly, follow thee more nearly, day by day. That was like, a worship song for me.

T: I know! We incorporated that into the early days of following Jesus in the church circles. I assume that was written for the play and we actually incorporated something from culture, because that was the pulse of the time. We were definitely yearning to capture those ideals of youth. I had posted something this week and somebody reached out to us – we love our listeners, so thank you all listeners for following us and paying attention to what we post, and this listener was also alive during this time, and was like ohhh Godspell. What did he say – he said there was an awed fondness for those memories that it brings back, and you know what, that captures it perfectly. I think what you and I relate back, especially when people talk to us, why did you go – and of course listeners, we’re trying to unpack this in a series of why we went – but the uncynical part of it is we really wanted to be about something more important than we were. We wanted to be a part of building a city, building a world that was full of love and peace and harmony, where we all got together – really, that’s the fondness, I think even when you were talking in our last episode, that’s the fondness that we miss. And we did achieve some of that in the community that we built.

S: Some of it.

T: That sense of camaraderie, that sense of community, that sense of brotherhood and sisterhood, and that is the good part. I think the other is, this is the cautionary tale of why these youthful ministries and megachurches are so damned dangerous Sharon, for young people, because there is that innocence and that zeal, and that idealism. They capture that, and Loren Cunningham is a master at exploiting that. That’s why we’re doing this series, because it’s a very important part and time of coming of age, and then there’s some dark players out there Sharon, who take advantage of that.

S: They do. Yep, there’s some beautiful stuff and then there’s – oh my god, it’s just covered up with shit tons of shit. Shit tons of shit. Alright, I think this is a time to segue way into this episode, which we are calling A Tale of Two Letters. I think these letters – let’s think about it, all the epistles of Paul, those were letters he wrote to churches or his disciples…

T: Damn Paul. He wrote a lot of letters.

S: He did. But not all of them. Not all the ones that are even attributed to him, so little problems there with bible and errors. See, I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole now. Not that one. Ok, so I think these could be called the Confessions of Teenage Sharon, and the Epistle of Keith Green to the Former LDM Backsliders. That’s what I think the name of these are.

T: Oooh. The LDM Backsliders.

S: Yeah.

T: Ohh. Yeah, so you know at the beginning of our series on the Demise of Last Days Ministries, we said we would do this one time – but wait for it listeners, we said we would also give ourselves the time and space to follow all the leads.

S: All of them.

T: I know in our previous episodes we’ve always talked about we deconstructed years ago, and I always go we left, and we left hard. We put it all behind us and created new lives and new spheres, and new, kind of rebuilding our own inner person. A lot of – at least my energy, and I think your energy – we were divorced and we had kids, so a lot of that energy was just trying to make ourselves ok, and our kids ok and we didn’t really unpack a lot of this portion of our pre-marriage life. So this series is really affording us this opportunity, and even in sharing last week it’s triggered so many more thoughts, as you take a layer, and you kind of go under another layer, so really going back to that youthfulness of who we were. I think these letters are a really good window into where our heads were at, where the ministry heads were at, so I think it’s really good that we take the time to go down this – sort of saying it’s a rabbit hole, I see it as a branch. Going in and following this branch of the first era.

S: Yeah. That’s good.

T: And in that it’s kind of coming back to that youthful place that we had our own coming of age story, because we didn’t come of age like a lot of people do. We came of age in this mindset where, of course, we thought we had the truth, right. So we got the truth, and then we were going to share the truth, so we thought we were very wise beyond our years. If I had a dollar for every person who told me that, and how wise beyond my years I was…

S: If you had a dollar for every person, maybe you’d be rich enough not to have to work for that fucking corporate machine anymore, huh?

T: Maybe I would. Oh my gosh.

S: Oh well.

T: It’s so crazy.

S: Alright. Last episode we referenced this letter that had just come to us, that had been written by Keith, and we said we would read the letter in a future episode, but since then you and I have talked about it and we both decided that it would be good to do two things. There was the letter I had written in 1979, we decided it would be good to read my letter for this additional context about the whole youthful mindset, and most importantly, we decided we really should discuss Keith’s letter in full detail.

T: Mmhmm. We’re going to kind of – what do they even call it when the pastor’s doing exegesis on Paul’s letter – we’re going to start to dissect this epistle, but that really gives me the heebie jeebies, so Sharon we’re going to have to stay away from that vibe, right.

[laughter]

S: We won’t necessarily go word by word, but [in a Pentecostal style] yesh-a – sister, we shall definitely do-a our best-a!

T: Our best-a. That’s definitely the wrong vibe.

S: The wrong vibe. Ok, not that vibe.

[laughter]

T: We had planned on doing this series and this first era, and all of this stuff has been branching because it has been layers and layers have started opening up to us. Trying to go back into 1979, is when 17 year old Sharon wrote a letter from Tucson Arizona, it was February 1979, hand written to Keith and Melody. I think you referenced this in your interview with Troy and Brian, but we never fully published it. It is very long, because a lot of us were wordy, trying to uncover the depths of your soul we get very wordy – shocker, shocker. It’s your confession of you being backslidden, and how you’re going to recommit yourself to Jesus, and I think that’s a really good important time dot in our timeline, then it would be two years later, February of 1981, there is a typewritten two page letter which Keith sends to a number of people – again, a form letter, we’ll have more to say on that – to all of those who had either been kicked out, not chosen to stay – I’m not sure of the whole thing because it was before my time when I was there, but we had brought that up in one of our last episodes. What happened to these people? I think this letter opens a lot of interesting space of where Keith was at.

S: Yeah. And the copy of the letter that was shared with us – again, it is a form letter, but this copy did have a personalized PS that was all of three sentences long.

T: Oh my god.

S: Perhaps everyone who received this letter also got a personal PS, but we don’t know that.

T: I think the personalization, once we read the letter, is actually more insulting. It’s kind of like, hey, I’m sorry I did all these terrible things to you – PS, hey.

[laughter]

S: Right.

T: But it’s definitely a dot on our timeline and I think it’s a really important, and really serendipitous timing, wouldn’t you say Sharon, that we’re just starting to do this recording and we get this letter. I think it has so many important details in it, so of course we’re going to clarify at this time – Sharon was 17 when she wrote her letter, then 19 when Keith wrote his letter. I was 17 because what do we know about me? I’m younger!

[laughter]

T: And Keith was still 28 years old, which now to us is young, but when you put it in context he’s an adult.

S: Yeah, he was. Alright, we have decided that I will do the honors and read the letter that I wrote to Keith, and – oh god, Tracey. On the one hand it is just really embarrassing and cringy, and there’s also this part of me, the whole check my heart, it’s like – oh my god, why am I doing this, do people even care? Anyway, then there’s another part of me that just wants to reach back in time to that teenage Sharon and say oh honey, you aren’t evil. You aren’t depraved. You don’t deserve hell, and Sharon – the love that you are feeling and that you think you are finding “in Jesus” – that, that is the love that there is within your very own heart and soul, just waiting to blossom and be set free. That’s what I wish I could say to my teenage self.

T: Yes. So listeners, I think that’s a really important point. We didn’t have that voice in our lives. That’s what made us very prime to be able to be susceptible to this message. Then you take it all the way back, as we were talking earlier, to the Catholic church, to the entire Evangelical movement – everyone was telling us in order to be saved you had to recognize your evilness and your sinfulness. So we’re primed for that. That’s just like, a non-negotiable. Why would we question that?

S: Right.

T: Even when you think back, it was the 70s, and – I mean, I graduated at the cusp of the 80s, corporal punishment was still not just legal, it was practiced in schools. There was all of culture agreed, your badness has to be punished with pain. There’s nobody in your life to tell you those things, so it’s been the trajectory of our journey, Sharon, to learn how to change that inner voice.

S: Right. Change that inner voice. Ok. So, the letter – my letter to Keith, it’s unabridged, so I am going to read it very quickly, and also listeners you can hit the higher speed thing so you don’t have to suffer through this for too long…

[laughter]

T: And then it will make her sound younger because it’ll be a bit of a higher pitch.

S: Maybe!

[laughter]

T: But I do want to add this before we go into it – just as a side note, I know it has been mentioned on another episode but I don’t know if people are connecting all the dots that we have – this is the letter that your soon-to-be-husband kind of fell – I don’t know if you would call fell in love with you, but this was read aloud to the ministry before Sharon joined it. He was the one that took note of this letter and was like that’s the woman for me. I think even to this day he’d say this represents a heart that he misses and wishes she’d come back to. I think that’s an important side note just about this mental stew we were in, and we would pick our life partners forever based on what we thought of ourselves, and what we thought of each other, and I think it’s very telling.

S: Ugh. Yes it is. Alright folks don’t judge me too harshly. Here we go.

            February 2^nd, 1979. Dear Keith and Melody and family. Well, I never thought I’d be writing a letter like this. In fact, there are a lot of things I thought I’d never do. Not me. “I’m so spiritual”. I’m beginning to realize that deep inside I had always prided myself about this, and you know what comes after pride. In fact…

T: [whispering] Spoiler alert! A fall! A fall comes after pride!

[laughter]

            In fact, even in writing this letter there is a great temptation to feel proud of my repentance. First I tried to justify, now I try to take credit. All I can do is trust the purging power of Jesus’ blood.

T: Alright, so Sharon I do want to say something, and you can – I don’t know if you want to read this and edit it later because I don’t want to get you off track too much, but I did notice once we start to read Keith’s letter, you do have a lot of self-awareness here. I mean, I had recently posted on our Insta page, have you ever felt proud of your humility, which is a common thing in these spaces, but you call it out. I give you points for that Sharon.

S: Ok, alright. Thank you. And yes you can stop and interrupt and comment if you like. I’m going to keep trying to read quickly though, so we don’t bore our poor listeners to death.

T: Ok.

            It’s hard to know where to start, so this probably won’t be in strict chronological order. I do remember about a year ago talking to Keith, you admonished me not to fall away; that three years old in the Lord was often a turning point, one way or the other. I confidently replied, don’t worry, I’ll never do that. So much for spiritual claims. Last spring things started to change. (First, some background. Since I had totally alienated people before I met Jesus, I never became involved in the everyday social affairs of the world. I guess it became the case of the child trying to touch the fire. Daddy says don’t but the kid is persistent, so dad allows the child to learn by experience. The pretty flames burn.) Anyway, I was closely involved with a vocal ensemble, and because of concerts etc, began to spend more and more time with non-believers. I’m not sure exactly when, but gradually some of the things of the world began to seem more and more attractive. I had never experienced any social activity, and even though I truly knew in my spirit that these things were empty, nevertheless my flesh began to crave them. These weren’t the great story material sins. I still had no desire to experiment with pot, alcohol or sex, but drowning is drowning whether you’re in 8 or 80 feet of water.

T: Wow. Oh, this makes me sad, because you are just a teen trying to learn social skills.

S: I know, right? Ok.

            I think a lot of it was my desire for acceptance from the opposite sex.

S: Ok, I’m going off script from the letter right now, and I’m going to say all of this was never – it’s so weird Tracey, it was never sexual. It was just this little girl fantasy of romance and somebody to care about me. That’s what was really happening. Ok, back to the letter.

            I had never really thought of myself as attractive, and I was becoming aware of needs that I just wasn’t willing to trust the Lord for, although I told everyone that I did. I had even partially convinced myself. What I did was to begin playing the game – you know, all the joking with subtle and not-so-subtle sexual connotations. Somehow I was under the misconception that this was confirming my womanhood, or something ridiculous like that. The whole time… you want to say something?

T: No, it’s just that – it’s coming of age, right? None of us were taught properly how to come of age, and what was healthy and natural, and learning how to relate to the opposite sex. It’s all seen as dirty, and it breaks my heart.

S: Yeah. I know, because you just want someone to think that you’re pretty, or you’re nice, and they want to be with you.

T: It’s so healthy. That’s not – that’s so healthy.

S: Ok.

            The whole time I was miserable, knowing in my heart that Jesus was where I belonged. It became increasingly uncomfortable to fellowship with brothers and sisters. Grace Chapel is really right on – don’t you love that little 70s…

T: This is the 70s!

[laughter]

            And the constant presence of the Spirit is hard to handle when you’re leading a double life, so by mid-spring I stopped going altogether. All of this carried over through the summer. And that would have been the summer of 78.

            In the fall, all my friends went off to college and I was faced by a new crowd, the drama people at the University of Arizona.

T: Damn drama people.

S: Damn drama people.

[laughter]

            Actually, this horrible choice of a major was a blessing. I was miserable. Miserable. I had played Rosa in The Rose Tattoo at the end of the summer, and had gotten in with Liz Tee who played my mother.

S: Oh, let me just also say I was 16 years old at the time. I had graduated early so I was taking summer session at the University.

            She started to work right away to remedy my “unattached status” – unthinkable for an attractive young thing like me. Fortunately nothing worked out. Each time I was fixed up with some guy, it would occur to me, you know, there’s a part of you that only the Lord can touch and there’s just no way these guys can relate to that. So why am I doing this Jesus? But I was always eager to check out the next prospect.

S: You know, this is really funny Tracey – this is off the letter, I think I literally had like, 3 or 4 dates my entire life, each just only one time, so yeah it wasn’t a whole lot.  Back to the letter.

            Pretty soon I got tired of all the games. I knew that all this rough language and “modern attitude” was just a mask. This just cracks me up about myself!

T: Mmhmm.

            It wasn’t the real me. She was buried somewhere under all that gook, but I still continued. It was like chasing my tail, always reaching for something, not knowing what it was, and it was always out of my reach. By December things began to happen. One night, just by accident – or was it – I heard a short segment of Jesus Christ Superstar. It was the part where Jesus sings one of you denies me, one of you betrays me, the disciples reply no, how can you say that? Jesus says Peter will deny me, Peter says no! Not me! Three times will deny me. I thought to myself well, at least I haven’t actively denied the Lord. But the next day I was waiting at a traffic light to make a turn in my car, and the car still had some Jesus stickers on the back. Real meaningful, huh. Some guy behind me starts yelling, you’re sick! What’s your problem? At first I didn’t know who he was talking to. He yelled, yeah you! Why do you have to push your god-damned effing ideas on other people? Etc. At first I was embarrassed, then I got mad. I started trying to think of the best thing to say to make him feel stupid. Well, I argued back and forth with myself, and finally I reached the next light. He was right beside me. He started to yell, but I beat him to it. I smiled and cooly shouted, listen jerk, it isn’t even my car! Suddenly I realized what I had done. I had denied Jesus, and without even an excuse of threat, or something. I knew that I had to make a decision very soon. I couldn’t go on like this.

T: This is like a scene out of Godspell.

[laughter]

S: And I had the long, straight hair to go with it.  Back to the letter.

            By then, I had changed my major to astronomy. Of course, there were many other incidents like that. All the while I kept saying to myself, this isn’t where you belong. You’re not happy. But I was still afraid to break that comfortable, downward spiral. I began to see what this false security of struggling to reach an illusion meant to the world. When the second semester started, and I was carrying a very heavy class load, I began to get real uptight.

S: [laughing] It’s that language again, Tracey!

T: I know. There’s stress with trying to do your school work.

S: Real uptight. I should have said groovy somewhere in this letter, but I didn’t.

[laughter]

S: Ok, back to the letter.

            Oh, I forgot something real important. Over Christmas break about six of the brothers and sisters I had been close to came home from school, and there was a get together at a brother’s house. During the course of the evening, I somehow glanced at his records. On the top there was an album cover with a king on a horse and many men bowing down to him, but one man remaining standing.

T: Jesus.

S: It wasn’t Jesus. No.

T: I know. That’s my swear word. Sorry. Jesus Christ, I can’t write this shit.

S: Oh it’s your swear word.

[laughter]

            On the top it said “No Compromise”. I didn’t find out till later that it was Keith’s album. I never heard the album, just saw the cover, but that was enough. Immediately the tears came to my eyes. That’s where I should be. That’s where I want to be.

T: Wow.

S: Ok, I’m going off script to the letter. Tracey, here’s another thing. That art cover, it was my soon-to-be-husband, Martin, who was standing in a monk robe from his Renaissance fair days, who was the model for the artist who did that album cover. So…

T: Yes, which is why I said Jesus, you can’t write this shit.

[laughter]

S: Yep.

T: Who is also listening to this letter in the community, going – oh.

S: Oh that was me standing there that convicted her. Ooh, I hadn’t made that connection.

T: Yes.

S: Ok.

            The weekend before last, I realized. When I was giving things to Jesus, things weren’t like this. Always worrying, always confused. So after a struggle I decided to go to Grace Chapel on Sunday. The hardest part was being honest with God. It had been so long. So much had happened I didn’t know where to start. It’s impossible to set into words what his mercy and grace mean. I can only say that he is faithful, and I’m sure you’ve experienced that “coming home” that can’t be captured by pen or voice, you just have to know him. There’s a lot I’m not saying, partially because I don’t know how to, and partially because words would only minimise it. I trust all this will work to his glory. All I can say is I love him with all my being, which is so much more than I can say, and he is where I belong. He is home. Oh Jesus, I love you. I know better now than to make boastful promises of my faithfulness to him. What really blows me away is that he holds my hand. I can’t tell you what that does to me. I hope the end of all this hasn’t sounded defeated, because in Jesus, it isn’t. I’m not at all sure what the future holds, but I know I want to do it with Jesus. It may be, as you said, that I’ll be out there with you all, or it may not. Please pray about that. Well, time to get back to my calculus. Jesus is a great tutor, you know.

[laughter]

S: Oh my god.

T: Is he cheating? Is he helping you cheat? Is he whispering words to your spirit?

S: Oh god, it’s so embarrassing.

            I love you all so much. It’s comforting to know you’re there. Write if you can. In Jesus, Sharon. PS: The Last Days Newsletters have been a continual blessing.

T: Continual blessing! So we were fortunate to find most of the back issues when we were visiting Texas, and I think I posted a couple of those covers. All I could think was wow, we were one cheerful bunch. I mean, everything is this person prostrate, how much sin we all have…

S: I know. I know.

T: Ugh wow. Sharon.

S: That was my 17 year old letter. Yeah.

T: So we often used to say at the beginning, did Last Days make us, or did we help make Last Days. We all had this bent.

S: Yeah, we did.

T: You can see of course – we all know the spoiler alert; will you be there or will you do something else. I think you were recruited pretty hard to go out to Last Days, and there you have it. For 1979 this is a really good window into the kind of people that went to Last Days.

S: Yeah, and Keith immediately called me and said we’re in the midst of a revival, you’ve gotta get out here now. And I did, and never went back.

T: No, because you don’t have any adults in your life, or any keys to understand – I mean, obviously you were graduating early. There’s so many things in my life that were very similar. You start to grow up right, you start to have bigger stresses and having more responsibilities, and there’s not the keys, so you’re wrestling with your own internal normal development that then is tagged as not trusting, as being sinful, as being proud, as wanting attention – all that stuff, and all it does is continue to bring a landscape for you to keep beating that stuff down.

S: Yep. Alright Tracey, shall we go onto the more important letter?

T: I don’t know if it’s a more important letter. I think they’re both a very telling letter for what happened in The First Era. Yours is 1979, you seem primed and ready to go to a place where revival is on the forefront, two years later this letter that we’re about to read from Keith Green is written, and I think it just portrays what is happening in that first era among the hearts and minds of those us who were there, and more importantly, Keith Green who was leading it.

S: And blazing bright. Keith Green Blazing Bright.

T: We are so grateful that a former Last Days Ministries member shared this with us. I think I said like, serendipitous, in the past week – like, this is definitely God’s timing.

[laughter]

S: Tracey, you know, you got me thinking about AI, with that Instagram work you do. I was able to find a program to help to do a simulation of Keith’s voice. So, to be clear to our listeners, this is NOT Keith himself speaking, but each word is exactly what he wrote in that letter dated February 16^th, 1981. Also folks, do not be fooled by the use of the words us and we in this letter, because although the sign off of the letter is from the three elders and the two wives, this letter is absolutely 100% Keith Green.

            Dear *, although unfortunately, it has been some time since many of you have heard from us, we felt urged from the Lord to write this letter. (We are sending a copy of this letter to most everyone who used to live in our community – whom we still have an address for.)

 The Bible says “If at all possible, be at peace with all men” and since the Lord, through his patient and loving hand, has recently shown us where we have erred in the past, in respect to many of our attitudes, rules, directions and policies, we feel that apologies and repentance are in order. Even though some might think, that in comparison to the damage done in some lives, “apologies” are not sufficient to atone for our mistakes and sins, we know that scripturally, we are told to confess those sins against God, to God, and confess those sins against man, to man (even though ultimately it is God who is the one most wronged.)

 When Melody and I first started taking people into our home during our early christian walk, we never dreamed that it would evolve into a full-on christian community. But during the fall of 1977, we visited Jesus People USA in Chicago, and were very impressed by their zeal and commitment to the Lord and each other. Because of the visit, our excitement was heightened and a desire grew in our hearts to see our little one-horse halfway-house turn into a large Christian discipleship community, just like JPUSA. As we shared this vision with the elders there, we mistakenly thought that God wanted us to use their whole set up ( rules, working and living arrangements, financial policies etc) as a model. As most of you know, we even bought 2 vans the next spring, and packed up our whole troup and took them to Chicago so each person could see for themselves why we were so into patterning ourselves after their set-up.

 To make a long story a bit shorter, we got caught-up in some very grievous error, due to our sights being on the wrong model. (We should have been patterning ourselves after Jesus!) We can see now, that we were headed straight for culthood and we praise God that He intervened.

In February 1979, God revealed to my heart the falacy of such a system of human control, and we immediately made many changes in our rules and policies (that resulted in a substantial decrease in the number of our community). Unfortunately, old habits and patterns of dealing with people die hard, and we failed to reform our rules to the extent that the Gospel demands. What I’m trying to say is, God revealed much light to us at that time, but since then (of course!) we have learned much more from the Lord.

(I want to make it clear we are not saying it is Jesus People’s fault for our sin, we were the ones who had our eyes in the wrong direction!)

 We realize that many of you were verbally assaulted, made to feel horrible, and generally greatly discouraged when you were with us, (and especially when you finally left us.) We really had a great love for you (although it might have been hard to see it) and we, through fear, thought that some of you might not stand firm and stay with the Lord if you left. That is why we tried so hard to talk many of you into staying, (which really boils down to us not trusting God for you.) We thought we were doing all this for you and Jesus, when really our unbelief and lack of faith led us into sin.

I mistakenly thought that the best way to make a point was to force the issue. I realize now that counsel (quiet and gentle) is the only recourse I have for someone I believe is in rebellion toward God. I am totally, completely, and utterly sorry for my horrible behavior and terrible displays of human, fleshly temper. If I had it to do all over again, God knows I would never have attempted to start anything like we ended up with.

Be that as it may, God has used us in spite of our mistakes, (probably because we never really wanted to do anything that would dishonor or shame Him.)  And since we believe He is directing us to continue publishing the newsletter as a ministry staff, we have recently begun the dismantling of most of our rules. (Of course, we still keep a schedule, and there are some policies that have to do exclusively with our living arrangements and work-atmosphere), we basicly believe that most everyone here is now mature enough (or should be) to hear the voice of the Lord concerning spiritual and personal matters. As elders we feel we only have the responsibility to give our advice, and it’s up to that person to make their own decisions. (This absolutely also goes for leaving our ministry and moving on.)

 We know now that there were many people who lived with us that should never have been here in first place, and there are also many who left (as recently as this past year) on some bad terms, who we believe would have had a more peaceful and joyful departure under our current situation.

Because of our recent reformation we felt it necessary to send this letter out to those who still might be scarred or are harboring bad feelings towards us, (or me personally.) Maybe you won’t believe we’ve really changed that much (in the light of the last “revival” and how we failed to completely learn our lesson about “over-shepherding”), but as you know, God is faithful to them that love Him (and we know, you know, we do!) We also believe that many of you have been praying for us to come to this decision for a long time, and we thank you in Jesus for your concern and loving prayers.

We hope that in the future, you will be able to hear a good report about us. But even if we have failed now to completely change what’s wrong with our ministry, we know that your prayers – and God’s faithfulness – will continue to shed new light on our hearts, eager to “learn what is pleasing to the Lord.”

 If there is anything we can do for you, please let us know. I, Keith, am writing this letter. The reason I am having the current elders (and their wives) sign with me, is because we have all agreed together on many of our mistaken policies, and I believe we should all repent together, and stand together in stating what we believe the Lord wanted us to know, AND LIVE, all along.

We really love you and encourage you to keep seeing the Lord’s will for your life!

 Yours in repentance, Keith, and the elders (and wives), Martin, Wayne, Kathleen and Melody.

            PS: Hi *, please feel free to share this with * and be sure to give them our love, or you can also share this with anyone else who might have become involved through hearing reports from ex-LDM members. We really miss you and would love to see you.

S: Words matter, Tracey. Words matter. What’s that scripture, the mouth speaks of that which fills the heart? There are some universal truths. There are some real truths sometimes in the bible, amongst all the other bullshit.

T: Yes.

S: But what exactly was this letter? Was this genuine remorse? Was this lip service? Was this damage control?

T: Hoo yeah, I mean – so you know, I think I’ve referenced it before, I’ve kept every god-damned thing I’ve ever written in my entire freaking life, from the time I could write from literally age nine.

S: By the way, I love that you’re becoming more and more colorful in your language, the more time you spend recording with me.

[laughter]

T: The more time, and I think it’s just this material right, that makes me want to swear. What’s that saying, makes a preacher cuss. So there was definitely a conditioning we all had. I have an entire box of letters, cringeworthy letters – I should actually re-title the box Cringeworthy, of many apology letters that I wrote because we were conditioned, Sharon. We were really conditioned that any time we felt that sense of uh oh, we did something wrong, we were conditioned to get it off our conscience really fast. So when I read through some of those letters now, it’s like it’s all about me, and my uncomfortable feeling. Fuck the person who’s getting this letter and what it might stir up for them, or say to them, and this is another classic example of that. The belief system that we were in was teaching us that. It was reinforcing I would say, a narcissism, right, because an apology is absolutely not supposed to be about us. It’s supposed to be about the empathy of understanding what someone else is going through, is in, and that would then craft how you’re going to approach them, and this is classic narcissism.

S: Yeah. But you know, this is where – I don’t know Tracey, I have competing thoughts, or cognitive dissonance, or is it true, or more than one thing is true at the same time, because I do believe that with Keith, there was a genuine desire to do the right thing. It’s just there was so much fucking hubris and pride, and self-importance, and perhaps a false humility.

T: But see that – I completely agree, and that’s why I’m  saying we were trained to do this. We believed it was the right thing to do, so I do believe Keith thought it was the right thing to do.

S: Yeah, but…

T: But we forced confession before there was true understanding.

S: Oh yeah, oh yeah. And the other thing is whenever Keith did apologize, or remember when he was on stage and doing concerts, when he deflected and told people don’t clap for me – anything that was like wow, that’s so humble, wow, that’s so amazing – anything like that did garner for him lots more praise. It just amped up the admiration and affirmation, because humility and repentance were so highly valued in that belief system. And – a little thing for my behavioral science geeky friends – basically it’s positive reinforcement, right. For those things that we choose to do, we make a conscious decision to do something, it’s to get more of what we like. Even though he wanted to be humble, he liked the attention. He did.

T: Well, I think you actually point that out in your letter which is so interesting in light of this. As you’re doing that, you’re catching yourself, right, oh I’m repenting and I know that’s of value in this belief system, so I’ve gotta check myself even in that. It is a vicious cycle, so we do relate. Listeners, we relate to it, but we were taught this as well. In our school, and of course Youth With A Mission, we learned how to apologize. We learned words to use and words not to use. I have to say he actually wrote this before he had some of those teachings, because I think YWAM got a little savvier. To avoid looking like you’re proud of repenting, try to use these words. I think Keith actually really is telling in so many of his phrases, which we’ll point out.

S: Ok. Yep. So, we’re going to look at the words of this letter more closely. Let’s dive in and dissect it.

            Dear *,

Although unfortunately, it has been some time since many of you have heard from us, we feel urged from the Lord to write this letter. (We are sending a copy of this letter to most everyone who used to live in our community – whom we still have an address for.)

S: The second word in this letter, “unfortunately”. Ok – what is the dictionary definition of that word? It’s attributing to some random, arbitrary fortune or luck. That’s what unfortunately means. And that is not the same as owning it, as taking responsibility, right Tracey?

T: Not at all.

S: For god’s sake, being rear ended in a car accident – that’s unfortunate. You lose your job due to downsizing – that’s unfortunate. If you have a parent who dies when you were young, yeah that’s awful and that’s unfortunate. But, ghosting and condemning people that you once claimed to love – that’s not “unfortunate”. That’s a choice you fucking made.

T: Yes. And this is why honestly I hated this portion of this letter so much. Of course, I know who sent this to us, so I know a little bit about their story, which makes this all the more offensive, because you’re not apologizing for anything, you’re just form letter blanketing basically an excuse, which then you’re going to go on and explain why it’s such an excuse. I think his words are so disrespectful and callous to the context of what was really happening with these people.

S: Yeah. And that phrase that it’s been “some time since you heard from us” – why? Why? Was this a form of shunning? Did he think that any time spent with these people who left was just a waste of time? Was he disgusted with them? Why was it so long since he reached out? If ever – until this letter. Then we’ve got “we felt urged from the Lord” – and Tracey, this sort of thing, it makes me want to vomit.

T: Yep.

S: What is really prompting this? Alright, you felt urged from the Lord, but what is the real reason you’re doing this? Do you have a guilty conscience, like, hey we blew it? Have you been made aware of the real pain these people are feeling and how their lives – some of them have been devastated? Are you worried about bad press? And yet Tracey – this is the other part – you and I, we too – we used to use the same language. Because anything that was originating from self; you know, our own ideas, our own this or that – that was sin. And only what is coming from God is ok, so thus this letter being written because “we were urged from the Lord” – that means this letter is sanctioned as God’s holy will, right?

T: Yes, and – you know, I would expect God to be a better writer than this but then I’m like, oh, look at the bible. He’s really not, in some spaces.

S: Right.

            The Bible says “If at all possible, be at peace with all men” and since the Lord, through His patient and loving hand, has recently shown us where we have erred in the past, in respect to many of our attitudes, rules, directions and policies, we feel that apologies and repentance are in order.

T: And of course Sharon, as we go through this letter, this is all still very personal to me and this is why I hate it so very much. I have mentioned on multiple occasions that of course, my ex is still in this frame of mind. He’s still in this mindset, which is a frame of narcissism, and we see it playing out in all of the church scandals today. Again, IHOP KC comes on board, all of these clergy – they’re apologizing for egregious behaviors, terrible things, but they still don’t get it.

S: No! They fucking, fucking don’t get it.

T: They don’t get it. One of our sister podcast people I like to say, from Holy Ghosting, they had DL Mayfield on, and she made reference to this very topic and referenced a phrase, accountability versus absolution. It really jumped out at me, because I thought, that’s it. That’s what’s happening in these spaces. There’s this expectation that as long as you apologize for something, you immediately get absolution.

S: Right!

T: And it’s happening today – like I said, my family, my kids have been on the receiving end of multiple apologies…

S: “Apologies”

T: And the default is – well, I apologized for whatever, X Y Z that I did, but you still don’t understand what you did.

S: Yeah. There’s also the words “patient and loving hand”. So, I’m like – ok, God’s tone in dealing with Keith on this whole thing seems to be a good bit different than the type of correction God calls Keith to dish out to Christians, and I’m talking about ongoing. I’m not talking about the past before this letter, but there’s this ongoing – I mean, harsh rebuke and judgement of Christians who just aren’t doing it good enough, right?

T: Correct.

S: Ok. “Recently shown us where we have erred in the past”. So the presumption, if you’re reading this letter, would be that Keith has corrected these errors at this point, and for the future, right, that’s what we would presume. He is of course, referencing “attitudes, rules, directions and policies”. Tracey, that is a lot of stuff. I mean, that really is the entire dawn to dark life at Last Days.

T: It’s sooo much from dawn to dark at Last Days, which makes this all the more peculiar. This is such a peculiar letter.

            Even though some might think, that in comparison to the damage done in some lives, “apologies” are not sufficient to atone for our mistakes and sins, we know that scripturally we are told to confess those sins against God, to God, and confess those sins against man, to man (even though ultimately it is God who is the one most wronged.)

T: Ok, so this is the line – I HATE this line, Sharon. He has just undermined his entire apology with that line. Even though SOME might think that in comparison to the damage done in some lives, that apologies are not sufficient. Like, what the fuck? Is he really just saying that I’m going to go above and beyond by apologising, even though many people think it’s not even necessary?

S: I don’t know. It’s a whole lot of odd gobbledegook. Yeah, that quote of apologies are not sufficient to atone for mistakes and sins – yes, probably right, and yes, you’re supposed to confess, but isn’t there something more you might offer beyond a paper confession and apology? This part gets my blood boiling – “God who is the most wronged”.

T: Mmmm.

S: This is deflecting and minimizing the harm and the pain that he has done directly to others claiming that the real victim is God himself, and that God’s pain is greater than the devastated people that are weeping in front of you? I mean, what the fuck? What the holy fuck?

T: Yes. And this is happening today. If you read through all the things that are said about Mike Bickle’s apology, this is text book for this. He even states he didn’t need to apologize to people because he and God already took care of it. And I think it’s very chilling that this, in 1981, this type of apology is already being laid out.

S: Yeah. And you know what Tracey, probably the same sort of thing was happening for generations before, because there ain’t nothing new under the sun. Nothing.

T: No, there’s not.

S: But with this mindset that he’s revealing, this belief in an invisible God who gives you special direct knowledge and instruction, with that you can justify almost any words and any behavior towards others. And Keith did just that, over and over and over again. Tracey, although ours, yours and mine, was perhaps not as extreme as Kieth, we followed that lead. We bought into that belief and we did cause harm to ourselves and to others.

T: Yes.

S: And folks out there, we can’t say it often enough. We were wrong, we were wrong, we are sorry. Ok, there’s one other little thing in this. It’s almost like there’s this bizarre love triangle twist on the last part of what’s known as DARVO – Defend, Attack, Reverse Victim Offender. Keith is clearly the offender in all this right, he’s even stepping up and saying so, and all the people who are receiving this letter, they are receiving it because they were victims, and yet – Keith adds God into this mix as the real victim. The most wounded of all. And Keith offers us – I don’t know Tracey, this is like a mini master class in gaslighting and spiritual bypassing.

T: Yes. Yes, and that’s where I hate this so much.

S: I know.

T: It’s subtle enough, and I guess if you’re still young and delusional you might not catch it, but it’s all there, and that’s perfectly said. It is a masterclass in that.

S: Yep.

            When Melody and I first started taking people into our home during our early christian walk, we never dreamed that it would evolve into a full-on christian community, but during the fall of 1977 we visited Jesus People USA in Chicago, and were very impressed by their zeal and commitment to the Lord, and each other.

T: So, that whole part was actually interesting for me to read historically. I do have a good memory…

S: Yes, you do.

T: But I am constantly – am I supposed to have this good of a memory? – I am constantly trying to fact check myself on some things. I don’t know how much I’ve even mentioned this to other people, but I vividly remember – and this must have been after my first term because I was already at the ministry. And Keith was – I was around him, and he was having a conversation with somebody else, but I was listening – and he was talking kind of about what different types of communities were like. Of course, very proud of what we had, but he was very succinct in saying we were not a commune, that we were a community, and he said it’s because we allowed personal ownership.

S: Wait, wait – [laughing] wait a sec…

T: Totally serious.

[laughing]

S: Ok. So personal ownership – first of all you’re not getting paid, so the only thing you can own is the clothes on your back which you can kind of scrape to have. It was like a big deal if somebody got to keep the ownership of their car. You actually were encouraged to donate your car to the ministry. You were.

T: Yes, but there were people who still owned it. I think for couples they actually had to buy their trailers as well?

S: I don’t remember that. Martin and I didn’t, but we were maybe grandfathered in.

T: You didn’t, because you guys got married in, but I think other people coming from out…. – this is one of those fact check things that’s like, vividly in my mind about hearing Keith go on about the different types of communities versus communes. Of course, our parents referred to us as we’d gone off to this commune, which I also call it a commune.

S: Absolutely.

T: He was very adamant that we were a community.

S: I think he had a PR problem. I think he was trying to get out of a PR.

T: This is where I thought this portion – this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I thought this portion of the letter was very interesting because I did not know that he had actually taken the ministry to Jesus People USA. I did not know that he was that interested in how they were doing. I did not know that there was some kind of – more than just an affiliation there, so I found that to be very, very interesting.

S: Yeah. He comments that he was very impressed by “their zeal and commitment”. Tracey, that basically is code for extremism. And the commitment “to the Lord and each other”. Now, that each other part – that is code for overinvolvement and inappropriate control that the leaders exert over followers. And if you look at the relationships that the followers have with one another in these high control organizations – I swear Tracey, it’s more like Orwell’s Big Brother is watching you where everyone is a semi-spy, a semi-informant, versus brotherly love. It sure wasn’t the skipping around in the Godspell movie.

T: And of course, when I came which was just after this letter was written, there was a lot of that tapping on the shoulder, can I talk to you about any rule infraction that you may have had. Of course, a rule infraction always meant that there was a sinful heart underneath.

S: Always. Oh yeah.

T: You wouldn’t do it if you were just not even knowing, even if you don’t know, you were responsible to know what the Lord was saying.

[laughter]

T: It was really difficult. I did want to circle back to ownership, and I do think in Keith’s head this was an important distinction. If you did have money from your parents or whatever, we weren’t forced to put that in a pool. From my understanding, Jesus People USA did, if they’re working they’re all pooling all their money and we didn’t have that, so I think in his head that’s where he drew the line.

S: Ok. That can make sense. I can see that.

            Because of the visit, our excitement was heightened and a desire grew in our hearts to see our little one-horse halfway-house turn into a large Christian discipleship community, just like JPUSA.

T: Yeah, so Sharon did you know that they went to visit JPUSA? For those of you who don’t know Jesus People USA, the cool kids in the 70s called it JPUSA.

S: I did. I had forgotten about it until we read this letter, but yes I did know at the time.

T: Ok.

S: And we listened to Rez Band. They had a – I think it was called Cornerstone Magazine that we got.

T: Yes.

S: So yeah, I was familiar, and yeah they were the cool hippies in Chicago.

T: Yes, so it was kind of like the city commune versus the country commune.

S: Good point.

[laughter]

T: Which would be a great children’s book,

S: Oh my god. And you notice in that though he also says a large discipleship community, so that is revealing Keith’s desire and ambition. He wants a big one. He wants a big one, because bigger is better, right? Bigger is always better.

T: Stroke, stroke, stroke, stroke.

[laughter]

S: Oh god. Well you know what Tracey, JPUSA was later rocked with some horrific sexual abuse and child abuse scandals. No lie.

T: No, no lie at all, and when I was starting to post different things – because you know that the advertisement for the birth of Last Days Evangelical Association, that was printed in the Cornerstone Magazine. In the early days.

S: Oh. I forgot about that. You’re right.

T: Yeah. So there is a great documentary by one of the kids who grew up in Jesus People USA, who then grew up to be a film maker. I think one of his first – it’s a really gripping personal story, he goes back and interviews his own parents, and several parents of the victims of the ones who were sexually abused, because at first (shocker) Jesus People USA denied that these things ever happened, which now they have since sent out their own apology letter. But I think what stood out to me the most in that documentary was this very devout discipleship community that was all about Jesus, so then they just kind of housed the kids – all the kids had to share rooms with people up the streets, it was absolute neglect of the children. I realized that’s where all of our heads were at. The mission became so important, and it took all of our resources and dedication that there was an absolute neglect in care, I think also undergirded by Jesus would never let anything bad happen to our kids, right? I could relate a little bit as an Army brat, in the military community they have this dynamic in place that the mission overshadows everything and I see that happening in Evangelicalism as well, and then these stories. We’ll put the link in our show notes, people should definitely go check it out because I think it’s a really good dive into the mindset of what happens in a community when you’re not paying attention.

            As we shared this vision with the elders there, we mistakenly thought that God wanted us to use their whole set up (rules, working and living arrangements, financial policies etc.) as a model.

S: Ok. “we mistakenly thought” – ok well, that’s a huge fucken mistake, isn’t it? “God wanted us to use their whole set up”? This is the other weird thing – so who really gets the blame for this? Is it JPUSA for having a not-healthy set up? Is it Keith who gets blamed because he was missing God? Should God get blamed because he wasn’t obvious enough? I mean, come on! Surely if you’ve got an omni-present, omniscient, omnipotent being, he could do a bit better job to make himself clear, right?

T: Ha yeah, right, I mean that’s what’s happening in my world today, with my ex. It’s like apologizing for – at the time – leading that they would have bet their soul on was coming from God that now they see was not God, but there’s never any explanation of. What the hell.

S: Yeah. What the hell.

T: In that, because of this conversation that I clearly remember, I wonder if there was more to the story of separating from the Jesus People model. I just wonder if there’s more to that story, which I guess I’ll never know.

S: I guess we’ll never know but yeah, maybe there was a little inside scoop, and worries. I don’t know.

            As most of you know, we even bought 2 vans the next spring, and packed up our whole troup and took them to Chicago so that each person could see for themselves why we were so into patterning ourselves after their set up.

S: So, “each person see for themselves why we were so into pattern-ning”…I can’t even say that…”patterning ourselves after their set up”. Here Tracey, he’s being honest. We, remember really means Keith. Keith was so into it.

T: And this fascinates me because of the history of communes that were happening at that time, that he was so into Jesus People USA. It fascinates me and then I have to think – I’m stepping back and going ok, we know Keith’s passions, he rents these vans, he loads everybody up, they go descent on Chicago on this community, I’m thinking, poor Melody. What the fuck, right? Again she’s thinking she just has to go along with everything Keith thinks God is telling them. I would love to know what’s more in the context of all of this, because now he’s almost talking as though they didn’t have the right pattern. So it’s just odd, and it’s interesting.

S: Yeah, it is.

            To make a long story a bit shorter, we got caught-up in some very grievous error, due to our sights being on the wrong model (we should have been patterning ourselves after Jesus!) We can see now, that we were headed straight for culthood and we praise God that He intervened.

S: So here again we go shifting the focus. The error was getting sights on the wrong model.

T: Mmm, the wrong model.

S: So JPUSA right? JPUSA is not good and he should have patterned himself after Jesus. Ok, but I think it’s important to realize the significance Tracey, and I can’t emphasize this enough. The significance of Keith using the word culthood.

T: Bing, bing, bing, bing – yes.

S: Yes. He is saying that “now” – which again remember, was February of 1981 – now he can see that they were headed for culthood.

T: Interesting.

S: Folks, you’ve gotta understand what was happening in the country, and this word was not just tossed about lightly. This was after the mass murder and mass suicide of the Jim Jones cult and there was over 900 people died, including young children. So for Keith to acknowledge the possibility that he himself has been leading people in the direction of culthood, Tracey that is huge. That is HUGE. It was not a little slip of the keyboard; it was not an accidental use of the word; that is as close to transparency as Keith was ever going to get. Spoiler alert: Keith, you were already fully and completely into culthood.

T: Yes! And knowing now – it makes so much sense, even that conversation I say I remember, because I remember a lot of the vibe of the conversation. He was very adamant to play up the word community, to disassociate it with any kind of sense of culthood or cultiness, and I think that is something that deep down he could see the characteristics.

S: Yeah, I think you’re right.

T: I mean, you even say when you got married (which I thought was very telling) that he didn’t want to be the one doing it, because he was concerned …

S: Right! Right, he did, he said that he really wanted to perform the wedding ceremony but it would just look too much like a cult. So that’s why he asked Leonard Ravenhill to come do the ceremony for us. He said that to me. Yeah.

T: Yes, and you know Keith was a smart guy. I think there were definitely – his own psyche was bubbling up some concerns to him, which I thought was very interesting.

S: Yeah.

            In February 1979, God revealed to my heart the falacy of such a system of human control, and we immediately made many changes in our rules and policies (that resulted in a substantial decrease in the number of our community.)

S: So, February of 1979 was when I wrote that letter that we read earlier, and immediately Keith brings me out to Last Days and Woodland Hills. Again, of course, I stayed. So this is what I think. If what I was experiencing then, in February of 79, when I arrived, was already like, the benefit of those “immediately made changes” in the rules and policies – I mean, wow. It is hard to imagine what it must have been like before that.

T: It doesn’t even make sense, that timing, because if he’s saying in February of 79 – I mean, there were so many rules still in place through the move.

S: When you came in 82 there were so many rules, right?

T: Oh yes, but even when you came which is before hand – and then I would say as soon as I came which is fresh in January, I mean, the rules were so thick and the oppression is the only word I can call for it, that we talk a little bit about in our interview with Dawn Green. There is no skipping, guys. There is no fucking skipping between buildings in this Last Days Ministries community, which really is a commune at this point.

S: Yes, and another thing in that last little snippet; I’m not quite sure what the connection is between the reduction of rules – supposedly – and the decrease in the number of people at Last Days. So I don’t know, was Keith telling them to leave, or did they opt out? And then, I’m curious about – I would love to know what the specific criteria was for those who did or didn’t make that cut.

T: Well, Sharon, it’s what they did or didn’t do.

S: Boom.

T: That’s how they get separated.

[laughter]

 Unfortunately, old habits and patterns of dealing with people die hard, and we failed to reform our rules to the extent that the Gospel demands. What I’m trying to say is, God revealed much light to us at that time, but since then (of course!) we have learned much more from the Lord.

S: Here’s that word again. “Unfortunately”. This is a better and more accurate use of that word, and we know that the idea of old habits and patterns being hard to change – yeah, that is a universal human truth, but here is the disconnect again. “Failed to reform our rules to the extent that the Gospel demands…God revealed much light at that time but since then we’ve learned more from the Lord”. Ok Tracey, logic. Let’s just get some logic in here, which demands that we’ve gotta ask this. Did God arbitrarily decided to reveal only a little bit of light back at that time, and withhold the full light for another two years? So if that’s the case – I mean, God is actually sanctioning the continued mistreatment of so many people? Or, is there something else going on here? Something perhaps just – really human. Basic human in both the essence of the problem, and the essence of this solution they’re trying?

T: Yeah, and then this letter is two years after the fact? It’s just bizarre to me. It’s just bizarre.

 (I want to make it clear we are not saying it is Jesus People’s fault for our sin, we were the ones who had our eyes in the wrong direction!)

S: Another weird attempt at misdirection I think.

T: Absolutely. An obvious tell. I mean, there’s so much in here that he is not realizing what he is saying. And of course, I’m reading it through the lens of someone who understands the heart – because obviously we became a part of it, and then continued on even after Keith’s death. We were a part of people leaving under bad circumstances – some being driven to counselling, because it was bad. So I’m in that frame of mind of what it would be like to get this and all this does is add a lot of insult to injury, the way it’s worded.

We realize that many of you were verbally assaulted, made to feel horrible, and generally greatly discouraged when you were with us (and especially when you finally left us.)

T: And this, Sharon, just – wow. I mean, that you would even use words – and we know that Keith was a wordsmith. He was writing articles, he was not just throwing words down, and that he would say verbally assaulted. That he would acknowledge that he verbally assaulted people is very telling, and doesn’t then match this whole letter.

S: No, it doesn’t, right. Let’s look at that word. Assault. The definition is a sudden, violent attack or onslaught. I mean, let that sink in, people. Keith is admitting it in writing. And it is a good thing that he’s being honest here; he’s admitting that he repeatedly verbally assaulted many people. So you’re listening to this, but don’t just think of this in the abstract, I want you to – not if you’re driving, but if you’re not driving, close your eyes for a moment and imagine what that would be like. This is Keith Green. This is God’s chosen prophet to our generation. He’s the Christian music megastar. He’s the leader of this ministry, and he is verbally violently attacking you. So of course these dear people were “made to feel horrible and greatly discouraged”. I mean, whether it was when they were there, and especially when they left – but remember, these were people who had dropped out of college, or left their jobs. They left their families, they left their homes. They did all of this to come and follow Jesus by joining Last Days Ministries. They sacrificed – I mean, maybe they sacrificed almost everything, but that wasn’t enough for Keith. It wasn’t enough for Keith Green.

T: No. And I’m sorry to say that this letter did not undo that whole vibe, because we carried this on at Last Days Ministries.

S: We did.

We really had a great love for you (although it might have been hard to see it) and we, through fear, thought that some of you might not stand firm and stay with the Lord if you left. That is why we tried so hard to talk many of you into staying, (which really boils down to us not trusting God for you.) We thought we were doing all this for you and Jesus, when really our unbelief and lack of faith led us into sin.

T: So, again, a lot of this is personal because of what we’re living through now, but I hate, hate, hate when you’ve just said all that – everything you’ve just said in reference to that last portion Sharon – and then he brings in, but we REALLY had a great love for you! And that’s supposed to take away all this shit that is heaped upon, and it’s so abusive. It’s such a gaslighting, toxic love, to basically have gone through all that and then – but by the way, it was all because we just loved you. We just loved you so much that we were so concerned for the destiny of your soul. And I just want people to stop – stop loving people like this.

S: You know, I remember one of my therapists once told me, if it doesn’t feel like love, it probably isn’t love.

T: Mmhmm.

S: For me, I read – I just read so much more deflection in this. I mean, the problem that he’s owning up to is “not trusting God”, or having unbelief and having a lack of faith. He’s not owning up to having an ego-driven urge to manipulate people, right?

T: Yes. Yes.

S: He’s not owning his insatiable need to control other people. I mean, that’s really what the problem was.

T: No, and he excuses it by saying it’s just because we really loved you so much.

S: We loved you. Ugh.

T: And we just didn’t think that you’d be able to stand – and that is the part that is so insidious to me,

I mistakenly thought that the best way to make a point was to force the issue. I realize now that counsel (quiet and gentle) is the only recourse I have for someone I believe is in rebellion toward God.

T: Oh my god, do you hear the dripping condescension in this passage?

S: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

T: He basically just said that everybody who left – so you’re apologizing to these people for verbally assaulting them, for not trusting God, and then you kind of just do the zinger of – are they all in rebellion to God?

S: Right. And he just should have been more gentle in telling them that they were in rebellion.

T: Exactly! And it’s like – that just sums it all up. And we did the same thing. The school followed this pattern; we did the same thing.

S: Yeah.

T: And that’s why I get so impassioned about this, because this is a pattern. This is a textbook kind of playbook, and we all followed along.

S: Yeah. This whole part just makes me sick. But Tracey, there’s a few more dots that we can connect that aren’t being said out loud in this letter but things that were definitely a part of the beliefs and teachings and practices that we had there at Last Days. So, remember that wonderful scripture? The bible says rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. And we look at – ok, witchcraft, whoo that’s tapping into the power of the devil. So those who don’t repent, those who stay in rebellion and don’t get fully on board with Keith’s view…

T: KEITH’s view!

S: Yeah, Keith’s view of what they should think and what they should say and what they should do – well, those people, they gotta go, because if they’re in rebellion – if they haven’t already brought demonic forces into our camp, they soon will. And that is a subtext that was going on there, 100%.

T: Yes, and continued. Continued on after this letter was sent out; continued on after Keith’s life; and continued on through the Eras – as we get to them.

S: Yes.

I am totally, completely and utterly sorry for my horrible behavior and terrible displays of human, fleshly temper.

S: Ok. I’m going to say good for Keith on this one. This might be the one and only really good statement in this entire letter.

 If I had it to do all over again, God knows I would never have attempted to start anything like we ended up with.

S: For real, Keith? Uhhh, guess what. You were, you are free to do whatever you want to do. If you really don’t want this thing that you’ve ended up with, Last Days Ministries, you could disband it all, right this second. But hey, there are lots and lots of perks of this thing you ended up with; free labor, so that you could be the most spiritual musician with your “whatever you can afford” policy, and if you don’t have your little slave commune you’re gonna have to give up this part too, and you’re not going to look like the spiritual hero to the entire Christian world.

T: Yeah. Yeah! And he would have to go back to the way everybody else sold their albums, right. So it’s almost like this big catch-22 that we see so much in spaces where your livelihood is tied to these spiritual practices, it’s very hard to disentangle them from each other.

S: Yeah. So this claim, if you had to do it all over again, you wouldn’t have done it – Tracey, we’ll fall back on our drama days; me thinks the lady doth protest too much.

T: Yes. Except for with a very keen eye, there’s a little qualifying statement in there – of anything like we ended up with – which could be referencing the controlling environment, and not like we’ve ended with today.

S: Well, you’re more gracious than I am.

T: I don’t think he regretted, that’s all I’m saying. I don’t think he would undo what he had created.

S: No!

T: I think the very fact that he was taking up the family in the plane on the day of that terrible event is, he was very proud of what he had created.

S: Oh, of course he was. Of course he was.

Be that as it may, God has used us in spite of our mistakes, (probably because we never really wanted to do anything that would dishonor or shame Him.)

S: I do believe it is true that Keith never intended to dishonor God. I do believe that.

T: Yeah, and that’s what makes the belief system so toxic in and of itself, because what we’ve all learned is in your deep desire to take Jesus at his word and obey him, it leads you down a very toxic path.

S: Mmhmm.

And since we believe He is directing us to continue publishing the newsletter as a ministry staff, we have recently begun the dismantling of most of our rules. (Of course, we still keep a schedule, and there are some policies that have to do exclusively with our living arrangements and work-atmosphere),

S: [laughing] Again, there were still lots, and lots, and lots of rules.

T: So many rules Sharon! I would love to visit Jesus People USA and wonder what the difference is because the different things we read about like, – so similar. So similar. I love how he calls out – well of course we have to keep stuff for the schedules, and for the eating, and for the dating…

[laughter]

S: Of course.

T: So many rules.

we basicly believe that most everyone here is now mature enough (or should be) to hear the voice of the Lord concerning spiritual and personal matters. As elders, we feel we only have the responsibility to give our advice, and then it’s up to that person to make their own decisions. (This absolutely also goes for leaving our ministry and moving on.)

S: So Tracey, as I said in our last episode, this part – it really is hard for me to read. So Keith set me up to start this special relationship, as we called them, with the one remaining single elder. I was 18, the elder was 23, three weeks later Keith literally proposes to me and sets the engagement. He had originally set the wedding date for pretty quick, but then he backed it off when he realized that I was feeling terrified. I mean, terrified of the idea of sex on the wedding night. Now, this letter, February 1981 – he writes this letter two months before the wedding that he has arranged for me. His words in this letter, about everyone should hear for themselves from the Lord about personal matters? That does not square with his actual behavior.

T: No. It does not square. I don’t know if you remember in our interview with Dawn – it may have been after when she was just having private conversations, but she referenced that a lot of people got a letter of apology from Keith, and she never got one. I didn’t know really what she was talking about, and then when this came into our hands it’s like, oh my god, this must be the letter that she’s talking about. She never got even a copy of this and of course, she’s living under his roof, which makes this again – it’s a form letter that really hasn’t taken any time to think of the faces and the people that he really needs to be reaching out to and apologizing to. So you’re right, it doesn’t square.

S: It doesn’t.

We know now that there were many people who lived with us, that should never have been here in first place. And there are also many who left (as recently as this past year) on some bad terms, who we believe would have had a more peaceful and joyful departure under our current situation.

T: And that’s why this makes me so angry. This is a form letter, Sharon. This is a form letter! To people that you have not admittedly even been in contact with, and now you’ve just insulted everybody getting this because basically you were not worthy of us, but I didn’t treat you right, so sorry.

[laughter]

S: I know, I know, right? Now, imagine being a person who receives this letter. I know for me I’d be wondering, oh wow, does Keith “now know” that I never should have been there in the first place?

T: Right!

S: I mean, this is shit!

T: No, it’s horrible! It’s really, really, really horrible.

Because of our recent reformation, we felt it necessary to send this letter out to those who still might be scarred or are harboring bad feelings towards us (or me personally.)

S: I would love to see anything in writing about this so-called reformation. I would just love to see what it was.

T: I don’t even understand that. You know that whole phrase of harboring bad feelings for us – this is what every one of these fucking high control groups do. A leader engages in horrific abusive behavior, and then the victims are accused of harboring the bad feelings!

S: I know! I know. Reverse Victim Offender. It is – UGH.

T: So I’m going to go above and beyond to help you with your bad feelings. Ugh, it really irks me.

S: Yeah.

Maybe you won’t believe we’ve really changed that much (in the light of the last “revival” and how we failed to completely learn our lesson about “over-shepherding”), but as you know, God is faithful to them that love Him (and we know, you know, we do!)

S: This would be laughable if it wasn’t so fucking manipulative. We know, you know, we do! Smiley face!

T: Oh. Yeah he just – I mean, in closing it’s just like digging in deeper.

S: Yeah.

We also believe that many of you have been praying for us to come to this decision for a long time, and we thank you in Jesus for your concern and loving prayers.

S: I think that this is a totally passive aggressive dig, right? If the victims of Keith’s verbal assaults haven’t been offering up loving prayers for Keith – I guess it’s just further evidence of them not being good Christians. It’s just – UGH. I hate this shit.

T: Yeah, again, it’s all about the narcissism of getting it off his chest, not caring about what damage, or what people were really struggling through. And it’s clear in each paragraph that he continues to dig in.

We hope that in the future you will be able to hear a good report about us,

S: Ah ha.

T: Ah ha ha.

S: He said it out loud.

T: Uh huh.

S: The need for there to be a good report out there in the public, about Keith Green, about Last Days Ministries, he says it out loud, and that is probably the biggest driver of all behind this letter.

T: I completely concur. I do not know – I think he references this earlier, stuff coming to his attention or something, I would love to know what the catalyst for that was.

 But even if we have failed now to completely change what’s wrong with our ministry, we know that your prayers – and God’s faithfulness – will continue to shed new light on our hearts, eager to “learn what is pleasing to the Lord.”

S: Oh my god! He…

T: And here we have it again, folks!

S: He is actually putting responsibility for his current or his future failure back on these wounded and abused people! They need to pray! And also there’s some responsibility on God, because HE needs to be faithful.

T: Yes, and again, why this is so relevant now is because this continues to be the playbook that we see in these spheres. If you can take this apart line by line, and start to see the manipulation and exploitation, then you can pick out these phrases.

S: Yes.

If there is anything we can do for you, please let us know. I, Keith, am writing this letter. The reason I am having the current elders (and their wives) sign with me is because we have all agreed together on many of our mistaken policies, and I believe we should all repent together, and stand together in stating what we believe the Lord wanted us to know, AND LIVE, all along. We really love you and encourage you to keep seeking the Lord’s will for your life.

Yours in repentance, Keith, and the elders (and wives), Martin, Wayne, Kathleen and Melody.

            PS: Hi *, please feel free to share this with * and be sure to give them our love, or you can also share this with anyone else who might have become involved through hearing reports from ex-LDM members. We really miss you and would love to see you.

T: And then he ties it all up in such a nice, sweet little bow.

S: Well, I love the PS. I love this very personal PS. He’s giving him permission to share this with “anyone who might have become involved through hearing reports about ex-LDM members”. There it is again folks, there it is again. What is probably really prompting this whole thing, right, whatever the ex-LDM members who are out there giving reports of what it was really like to be under the influence and control of Keith Green – it ain’t a good report. It ain’t a good report. And since they’re already out there, Keith wasn’t able to get ahead of the story, so he’s doing some damage control PR and he’s asking these wounded people to help distribute his – dare I say, propaganda to others. He’s asking them to distribute the propaganda.

T: Yeah, which again, is so weird because if you really cared about anyone hurt, you would have reached out to them, and then encouraged anyone who’s out there – please have them connect back with me.

S: Right!

T: So I can talk to them and make things right about stuff I may not know. Everybody, this is before social media, this is before the internet, because we’re so effing old, and imagine that this is someone like a Mike Bickle, trying to get out in front of a story before it becomes a story, and of course the ability for that to multiply is a little bit more limited back then, but all the signs are there. It’s all the same kind of shit, and it really is stunning to me.

S: Yes.

T: That an apology letter has all of the same earmarks of what we’re seeing today.

S: That’s right.

T: And you know, Sharon, for you this did bring back some painful memories, and you weren’t even one of the ones who left on bad terms during Keith’s Era.

S: Right.

T: It just really undermines the emotional situation that people were going through as he tries to tie it up in a really – we talk about emotional whiplash right, I’m going to go through this painful apology, and then HEY! Hi, and a little personal note. Haven’t talked to you for a while, hope you’re fine. All I can say is aren’t you glad that your name is not on the signature footer of this letter?

S: [laughing] Nooo shit! I am very happy about that.

T: We’ll post it, but of course Keith writes it and then has all of the leadership team including the elders and their wives, sign it. Sharon is not yet an elder’s wife, so she is freed from being associated with this letter.

S: Thankfully.

T: I think reading this on this branch of the first Era is a really important window into the mindset of all of us during that time. When you and I were visiting Texas last month we were able to pull the tracts – all the back issues of the tracts into a really big pile, and I wanted to reiterate – sometimes we’ve forgotten the messages that we used to publish and distribute. In talking with different people who were there, ohhh you know, but we loved each other, some of the best friends we ever met – and it’s like, yeah, but we existed to publish these messages, and they are toxic, and we reinforced the toxicity that was in our own hearts and minds, the leadership was reinforcing that, and I think these letters really offer a good window into some of that that we were living and breathing and sharing with the rest of the world.

S: Yeah.

T: You know, I had said it before – where were the skipping teenagers, skipping behind the Superman Jesus?

S: With the flowers and the singing, and yeah.

T: But your 17 year old letter really shines a light into that heart – we were so internalized, the guilt and the shame, trying all of these ways to rid ourselves of that.

S: We absolutely were.

T: And because so many of us were already bruised and wounded, we were primed for that message.

S: And Tracey, that includes Keith, and that includes Melody.

T: Mmhmm.

S: All of us.

T: Yes, and boy did we do a good job enforcing it in each other.

[laughter]

S: Yeah.

T: We said we would give ourselves the time and the space, and I think now we should end this here.

S: I’m exhausted.

T: I know. It is exhausting. We’re still in Era number 1 as there are so many important branches to this Era, because we’re really trying to set the vibe and the tone and the belief of all of us who made up this community – not commune – of Last Days Ministries.

S: Ok, wait, wait, you don’t think we’re done with the first Era while Keith was alive?

T: [laughing] No. I don’t think we’re quite done. Listeners, I know of at least one more episode that I would like to do on Era number 1 before we get into the much promised Era number 2, which is the regime and reign of Melody Green. But I think it’s so important for us to really explore this Era number 1. It will also add so much more color to some of our disappointments and frustrations with Era number 2. So there’s still one – at least one important topic that I would like to dive in. Do you know what that would be?

S: I think I do. I think I do…

T: So we’re getting long here, so no spoiler alerts on this, but we did get a very interesting email from a listener this week, and I totally concurred with everything that she shared on why Keith was in such a hurry to marry you off. So, I would really like to spend some time on that. I know I’ve had some questions for years, and sometimes I’ve asked them of you, and sometimes I’ve backed off, but I would really like to have a free opportunity with us recording here, to ask you some things I may not have asked in fullness before, and ponder this whole Era in more detail. Are you up for that?

S: Um, short answer is yes. To be honest though Tracey, a year ago or even several months ago I don’t think I would have been willing to go there. I don’t know if I would have been able to go there. But you know – my friend, you are a gentle guide and you are wise, and you are loving, and you have been making a safe space for me to allow myself to reflect on some of the stuff I’ve either pushed back or pushed away, or haven’t wanted to look at. So thank you. Thank you for that.

T: Ok, well listeners, I do want to reiterate that what you send to us is so important.

S: Yes.

T: I know that we don’t always get back right away because we’re both extraordinarily busy, but we do read everything, and I mean, everything, then we take, we talk about some things, we ponder some things – I know that this week for me I have pondered so much just going back to those early days of the 70s. So thank you, thank you to those listeners who are interacting with our spaces; thank you for sending your thoughts; thank you for sending your challenges. We want you to continue that, because it’s really helping us to remember some things we had forgotten about, and maybe explore some things we haven’t explored.

S: That’s right.

T: So please continue to follow us, and…

S: Alright folks, you probably know the drill. If you like our podcast and you’d like to see it reach other folks who could be helped by it, give us a rating; leave a written review, and share with others.

T: You’ll find photos and clips and the texts of the two letters that we read here on this podcast on our Instagram account which is feetofclay.cultsisters, which also automatically feeds to my Facebook stories, so if you follow me Tracey Arden, you can see it there if you don’t want to be on Instagram.

S: Alright. And you can connect with others by joining our Facebook group, Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community.

T: Not Commune. Because you get to own your own shit.

[laughter]

S: Thank you everyone for listening and we will see you next time.

T: Next time!