This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 037 – Our Road Trip Back to the Texas Property of Keith Green’s Last Days Ministries

April 10^th, 2024

T: OK, we’re starting to record, I just want to have that near you.

S: Yeah. Well, we just picked Tracey up at the airport. It’s me and my honey man Dave, and Tracey who you were just saying you’re glad your plane didn’t crash, right?

T: I’m glad my plane didn’t crash because I would think that this would be seen as judgement from the devil.

S: [laughing]

T: Especially..

S: Not judgement from the devil; judgement from God.

T: Yeah, judgement from God but it would be the devil because I have kind of taken a stand against Kathleen Dillard, who is doing spiritual warfare and I’m like oh my god, they’re going to think that she brought my plane down.

S: Yeah.

T: [laughing] So, we’re here.

S: Wait a second, disasters – if you pray and you create a disaster, does that mean you’re in league with the devil?

T: I don’t know Sharon! You would be the one who is able to comment on that.

S: I would be. Alright, you had just started to tell us about your career as a shuttle driver.

T: My career as a chauffeur, so we’re making the drive from the Dallas Forth Worth airport all the way out to Garden Valley, which I used to do when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, and if we had important people coming to visit us like Winkie Pratney, John Dawson, they always picked a staff member to drive them so that we would kind of know our place, right.

[laughter]

T: So you couldn’t pepper them like a fan girl – I was really opposed to being a fan girl anyway. I did drive George in from Silverwind. He was the trio from Silverwind, he was the one male in the trio of the two other females, and he was awesome. He was so interested and he carried on a good conversation. Winkie Pratney tried to sleep a little bit, which I understood, but then he did pay me so I have to give him credit for that. He gave me cash when I arrived, and I was like no, no, no, we don’t take cash and he basically chastised me and said no, you gave up your Sunday, you need to take this.

S: Ohh, that was really sweet of him.

T: It was really nice, and I was like wow. At the time it was like, $20…

S: Wow, that’s a shit ton of money from back then.

T: It was so much! I was like, oh my God, thank you God, because we could get pizza or something.

S: Wait no, you could buy deodorant.

T: I could buy deodorant, but I didn’t.

[laughter]

T: And then John Dawson I’m not afraid to say, he was an ass. I was treated like I was a peon from the time I picked him up to the time I dropped him off. So much so that I even thought that then. I lost a little bit of respect for him even then, because I was like…

S: Wow.

T: You know, we’re all God’s servants, you don’t need to treat me like your slave.

S: You know, that’s so ironic because John, of all of those YWAM stars – whatever they were – he..his teachings and how he exuded himself publicly was just warm and fuzzy and affirming and loving and humble and…the public doesn’t match the private.

T: In all fairness, it could have been a bad day, right, or whatever, but I even then thought it was a little bit more than that and I was like, you know, you don’t have to think yourself so important that you can’t talk to the staff member, and that’s what I was. Just a lowly staff member at Last Days.

S: Yeah. So question for you – it’s funny, I actually didn’t sleep that well last night. We flew into Dallas yesterday, so today is Friday April 5^th, so we flew in last night. I was up, and I had so many dreams last night. I was dreaming about … whoops, hold on.

…

S: Are we going?

T: Yeah.

S: Is it recording?

T: Yes.

S: OK. We had to take a minor break for directions. Make sure we were on the right road. We probably will be going straight through Dallas – I don’t know, maybe we will, maybe we won’t.  So I was starting to tell you that I didn’t sleep all that well last night. I had all these dreams. I was dreaming about Melody and that she wanted to borrow either some belt or a pashmina from me, for some reason.

[laughter]

T: Either one? Either or, or you can’t remember which?

S: Well, it was a collection of them and what she really wanted was this pashmina that I really loved, and I was telling her she had to be very, very careful with it.

T: Wow. Were you kind of being attached to worldly things?

S: Oh, I’m sure I was. Then there was this weird – we were having some sort of a play or there was other younger teenagers – we were like, teenagers and we were doing some play then it was a TV show, then they had a plot that was going to have a person who had been one of the January 6^th rioters and say they were OK. Anyway, it was just weird.

T: Oh my god. Just weird!

S: Then there was something Keith, and something also with the kids, with Josiah and Bethany. So clearly this trip is deep in my psyche!

T: Yeah!

S: How about you?

T: Did she keep you up, Dave? Were you aware that she was restless?

D: Not too much.

S: We’re old, so I get up to pee anyway.

T: Right. Did you go in the bathroom, or were you tossing or were you just laying there.

S: Well, I didn’t pee in the bed! I went to the bathroom.

T: Then did you take time in the bathroom to contemplate or did you come back?

S: No, no, I just came back and tried to sleep.

T: Yeah well, I was supposed to leave the house at 3:30…

S: In the morning…

T: In the morning, because my plane was at this god-awful time and so I tried to get to bed early, so I actually slept pretty well, and then I woke up and my plane had been delayed so I was able to get a couple more hours of sleep.

S: That’s good.

T: But yeah, I haven’t had those dreams. I’m just excited because I did come back 2017 – I have to check which year, it’s been a couple of years, it was my first time back and it was about 30 years since I had left, or since I had been married.

S: Wow.

T: Yeah, it was pretty profound. I wasn’t able to get on the property at that time, because it was just being sold again. It was still under bank covenant, I don’t even think they had a buyer so it was locked up, and because I am a rule follower I did not go on the property. I was like, you know, my blood, my sweat, my tears are on this property, I should have a right to be able to walk on it, but I didn’t so I stayed on the outer perimeter then went to the back gate which was right across from the ICT school house, so I did walk that a little bit but I didn’t get on the property. This will be good for me.

S: Well, I have not been back to this property since we were kicked off in 1987. So how many years is that? 97…07…17…it’s – I gotta do the math. What is it – 37 years.

T: That is a crazy amount of time.

S: Yeah.

T: A crazy amount of time to be having dreams and just have this time period so imprinted. I know we’ll hear sometimes from listeners who may have just gone through first term, or may have stayed for second term, or maybe they were a year, and it’s like – why did this have such a deep impact on us? I do think when you go through marriage there and start a family, I think that is a different level of impact, because it changed the whole course of my life, right. It wasn’t like I went and then I left, and got on with my life.

S: Right.

T: It’s like I took a spouse with me, I actually took a bun in the oven – I was pregnant at the time. Yeah. It changed the course of my life.

S: Well, it’s gonna be really interesting and really cool to be back there with you. I want to say a big shout out and thanks to *** – we may or may not bleep his name out…

T: He may be like, please don’t include me in your craziness.

S: Who is graciously going to take us at 2 o’clock today on a bit of a walking tour of – it’s called JAMA now – I don’t remember what that stands for, the ministry that bought the old Last Days property.

T: Yeah, and I would look it up, but I don’t want to mess up our recording.

S: Ok. Well, we’ll figure it out. We’ll put it in later when we drive up there. I’m just not sure what to expect emotionally, so we’ll see, and then we’re also later this afternoon, we want to go to Keith’s grave.

T: Yes. Did you talk to Betty Daffin?

S: I have texted and messaged with her, and we’re probably going to see her tomorrow.

T: Ok.

S: Let’s just –

….

Silverwind plays

T: Yeah, the bible is stained with the tears under the bed where she hides it.

S: That’s right.

T: Because we had to smuggle in bibles to the USSR.

S: Open Doors with Brother Andrew. You know what – when I got married – this is, oh my god – my dad gave us a gift of $2,000 and I gave it all to Open Doors with Brother Andrew. How disrespectful to my father, but I thought I was doing what God wanted me to.

T: Absolutely. I mean, he uses the unrighteous to bless the righteous. So…

[singing] Elya will teach us to sing, Elya will teach us to pray, and the love that she’s giving to children will never die….Elya you must not give in, (T: you must not give in Elya!), Elya you know you will win, you’ve planted your seed underground and they’ll reach to the sky.

T: So this is the first time that Dave has ever heard this music.

S: That’s right. They were CCM’s version of ABBA.

T: Yes.

S: And you know, we listened – plant seeds on good ground and they’ll reach to the sky. So, we listened to music all the time, those of us who were working. If we were in operations of some sort, like fulfilment, print shop, the art room – we didn’t really listen to it that much in data entry I don’t think.

T: No, it was really quiet, and the mail room was ruled with an iron fist – and the kitchen was ruled with an iron fist.

[laughter]

D: They mustn’t have liked Van Halen.

[laughter]

T: No, no, no, but there were some people in the print shop who preferred the meta version of Christian music, and it was a little controversial, like Resurrection Band…

S: We had Rez Band, yep.

T: There was a couple of others.

S: Matthew Ward.

T: I judged it a little harshly.

S: You judged it?

T: Yeah, I did.

S: But you weren’t – maybe you weren’t the one trying to stay awake at fucking two in the morning.

[laughter]

T: Jesus kept me awake if I needed to be awake.

[laughter]

T: I just trusted in God.

D: Did you ever listen to regular music?

T&S: Noooo!

S: No, no.

T: So, so much so – we got to stay at Carol and Jimmy Owens’ house which sat up on a hill, which was a really beautiful house. They were the parents of Jamie Owens Collins, they were big in the CCM world and when we stayed there they had a whole secular music collection, and I remember like, why is this? Then someone said Keith had a secular music collection as part of the art, right, to learn the art, and I was like – compromisers. Compromisers!

S: Oh, I just got a message from *** – he didn’t know you were coming. He says oh wow, Tracey Arden is coming – sweet!

T: Yaay. He loves me.

D: Is he one of the ones that one of you had a crush on?

T: No, we – who knows. I think at some point everybody had a crush on everybody, but others were strictly only for married group leaders to know. So *** was never in my sights, but Kurt Stabler was – god, I had a crush on him.

S: He was a hunk.

T: And Matt Schoenfelder was really who I was pretty sure God was calling us to get married.

[laughter]

D: Who?

T: Liz Schoenfelder husband.

S: Yeah.

T: Love you Liz.

S: He wasn’t married.

T: He wasn’t married then.

S: We used to say the Beauty and the Beast – the animated Disney, when the beast gets released to be his gorgeous male self – that was Matt Schoenfelder. Go back and look at it.

T: Yeah, he was pretty much like a chiselled god.

S: He was.

T: He was really gorgeous. As a matter of fact, I had to go to Grublets, which is a little café at Agape Force, based on the children’s series Nathaniel the Grublet, so they had a little café there that had the best brownies, so some of us would go. Kathleen took me there for a group one on one – we had to have one on ones with our group leaders.

S: Were you in trouble?

T: I wasn’t in trouble but I felt like I had to confess to her – oh god this is so embarrassing, I don’t think Liz Schoenfelder knows this either – I had to confess to her that I really thought God was calling Matt and I together.

S: Oh my goodness. Now, what did you base that on? What was your reasoning why you were supposed to marry Matt?

T: Matt and I went to the same school – the very first school, there were only eight girls and twelve guys, and we were co-ed, which is a little scandalous.

D: Whoa, wait, wait. (indistinguishable audio)

S: I want you to ask the question again.

T: You have to ask the question again, Dave.

D: Was God calling you to him because he was good looking?

T: Absolutely! God doesn’t want anything but good things for his children. You know, that’s a good question – we were all in our 20s, there was a lot of good looking people, right?

S: Yeah.

T: It’s interesting on who I ended up marrying, but I had always from high school wanted someone with blond hair and blue eyes.

S: Really.

[laughter]

T: My spouse would have blue eyes, uh, but not the blond hair. I don’t know – we went to the school so there was a certain amount of bonding that happened in that school.

S: Yeah, I can see that.

T: He was very well respected and I just could see us leading ministries together, so it seemed like God’s will.

S: You wanted a man who had a path forward in leadership in the kingdom of God.

T: Yes. Yes I did. That was very ,very important to me.

S: It was ambitious of you.

T: It was probably ambitious of me. I think it was also evolutionary, that we are drawn to the leaders of the pack. I don’t know – I mean, you picked the leader of the leaders so what the heck!

[laughter]

S: No, no, no, I did not pick the leader of the leaders. It got picked for me.

T: It got picked upon you.

S: Remember, my crush was on one of the artist twins.

T: Yes.

S: My big time crush.

T: Aw, and they were so sweet. It would have been a good choice.

S: You know what though, it’s the path. It’s the path we had, so…

T: It’s the path we had.

S: If I could go back knowing everything I know now, would I go ok, let me undo that and be with someone else? I mean, I’ve got my kids. They’re fabulous. I don’t want to undo that.

T: Right, you can’t do that, and that’s such a weird question. I think there was a movie I was watching where that question came up to somebody as – would you…

S: It’s A Wonderful Life.

T: No, it wasn’t It’s A Wonderful Life – and she was asked that question too, and it’s like no, how do you go back and undo your life, right, especially with your kids involved. I think it’s also hurtful to children to hear that. I don’t know – I think in the heart of every child is a desire to be born of love, right, to be born of that love.

S: Yes.

T: So I do try to be careful with that, because I did love my spouse. Passionately. I was very all in. I was all in.

S: And I was as in as I could be, because it was about loving God and loving Jesus, so at the time would I have said that this was not love and not – I don’t think I had the awareness, I think I was so blinded with everything for the kingdom of God that I didn’t even really know who I was.

T: Right. To be able to know that. And my sister who had come to live with us as a family would often say to me, you’re not even happy. You pretend that you’re happy, and I would get so angry because I was like, I’m NOT pretending and I look back at that now and she could see that I had become somebody that she had not known. But I was so not in touch with that because I had convinced myself – what is that scripture, I delight to do your will. So I was like I’m doing God’s will, so of course I delight in it, so of course I’m happy to be a living sacrifice. That’s all I ever wanted – to be a living sacrifice.

[laughter]

T: And since God didn’t give me Matt Schoenfelder…

[laughter]

S: Oh my goodness.

T: So Kathleen – I remember, because she was very holy usually in her demeanor.

S: Oh yes that’s right, let’s bring it back to that.

T: So we were at the café and we’re at Grublets , which was a special treat to be able to get a brownie, and I felt like I just had to say it because then it was like, how am I going to trust that I ever hear anything from God right, if I felt like God was – and it wasn’t that thing of you are going to marry him, but I did feel a witness in my spirit, Sharon.

S: Oh my god.

[laughter]

T: I felt the witness in my spirit. Then he went off and got engaged and got married so fast, and I mean, honestly – confessions of the cult sisters – I really thought he missed God.

[laughter]

T: Oh we might have to cut this out because this might be too hard for our dear friend who then we would become friends with and we would all live together, but I really did – I was like, I think he’s really missed God in this.

[laughter]

S: That’s hysterical. Well, I just think that it’s so humorous to think back on us in our teens and early twenties, and how the weight of all eternity hung on any and everything we would do, right? We were so blinded, which is actually why I can understand and have compassion for those who are still just locked in that bible box. They’ve convinced themselves that this is absolutely – I have joy and peace and all these things. Why? Because the bible says I should.

T: And we convince ourselves.

S: Exactly. Yes. We convince ourselves.

T: But I think it’s very interesting that – I have so much pride and arrogance – I wasn’t missing God, it was him that missed God. I was still like – [laughing] – I felt pretty confident in this.

S: Wait, what did Kathleen tell you?

T: So Kathleen actually laughed at the table, in not a mean way. It was one of those oh um, and I was saying I gotta get this out because if I felt so confident in that how can I ever hear anything from God. She laughed and she was kind of like, oh Tracey…

S: Did she know that he was already interested…

T: I didn’t tell her until they were married. I think this was something I had done after they were married.

S: Ohh, I thought you were doing it like, while he was still single.

T: No, no, no, no – noooo I actually humbled myself to tell her this terrible thing when they were already married. She was good, she laughed and I didn’t expect her to because I expected more of a chastisement, or something of what sin – because you know, usually it’s sin that’s making you miss God. I never felt settled on why I could feel – because everybody else that I did like – this is the mind of the fundamentalist Dave – I felt like I got a no from God. Which now I see as my intuition, my inner whatever – nope, not him. So there would be a couple of other people and I’m like nope, nope, nope. But never Matt. I never got a no. [laughing]

S: Maybe deep inside you were ok with polygamy. I mean, it is biblical, you know.

T: It is biblical. So yeah, that’s pretty hilarious now. I mean, now you look back and go of course, you have all these young people, these young hormonal people in their late teens and early twenties, of course you’re going to have all kinds of feelings.

S: Of course.

T: And then you got off the market before you could even let that horse run for very long.

S: Oh yeah. You’re right. I was off the market.

T: But in Woodland Hills did you not have…?

S: No, I didn’t.

T: Ok.

S: No I didn’t. I…

T: So when the artist – did you try to flirt?

S: No.

T: You didn’t have any time to like…

S: No!

T: Do any flirting.

S: No, I did not flirt.

T: Or godly flirting. Because there’s definitely a godly way to flirt.

S: No, I didn’t even do coy, like subtle. No, I didn’t at all. Because – I don’t know. I think I was very naïve and young in that way. I was not the type of – that wasn’t me. I wasn’t sexually motivated. I had little girl ideas of romance but I was really focused on Jesus, so I didn’t.

T: I mean, I was focused on Jesus but I did like it if you got paired up with somebody. But you didn’t have any time to do that.

S: But at that time there was Keith and Melody, there had been another couple, Jerry Bryant – this was back in California – who had married Cindy, this was like a second marriage maybe for her, maybe for both of them. Then Wayne and Kathleen – I think they might have gotten engaged while we were still in California, or maybe it was right when we had got to Texas. But that was it. There were no other couples. We were just a bunch of single people working crazy hours, feeling guilty like little worms, all for the love of Jesus.

T: All for the love of Jesus!

S: So there wasn’t really a culture of pairing up and getting married.

T: And no one tried to come work beside you, or you didn’t feel like there was anybody like…

S: No. There was never anybody like that.

T: Huh. Cos you’re a little hot hottie.

[laughter]

S: Well, thank you. I think.

T: It’s that elder grabbed that right up.

S: Yeah.

T: Oh that is too funny.

…

S: So we are getting closer. We’ve just crossed into Van Zandt County and the little town of Van – the high school mascot was the Vandals. The Van Vandals, and of course football – huge. We used to think oh isn’t that awful, it’s like they worship football. It’s like their god is football, if you’re in Texas.

T: I still think that.

[laughter]

S: I remember there was a nursing home in Van and when we first arrived we would go visit them every Sunday. We would go there and of course there were elderly and disabled people, and there was one young gal that was – you could tell – now I can look back and see she truly had some mental and emotional issues, and physical issues, but Tracey, I remember hating going there. I hated it. We were supposed to be witnessing and having church and songs and….

T: Did you sing?

S: Yeah we would sing. We’d go with guitar – this was when we were all still living in the ranch house. This was really early on in our Texas time. It was just depressing and miserable and it felt so contrived, and then I felt so guilty like I must not be a good Christian because I’m not liking this.

T: Yeah, we went also. I don’t think it was part of my first term at all, so it must have been my second term. When you stopped going there was probably still a small group that continued to do that because I remember going a few times myself. It was just a depressing home. It was very, very depressing so I don’t know how much that was mixed in with – what can you do every Sunday? We weren’t connecting to people – we had a mission, right.

S: Right!

T: So it’s all this thing like can we get anyone saved.

S: Yeah.

T: Of course in Texas, everyone is saved.

[laughter]

T: Which I never really put together back then, so when you come back now and you’ll start to see it’s a very highly Christianized area.

S: Culturally Christian.

T: Yes. Well, look at you, culturally Christian. I mean, oh, oh, I’m showing my spiritual arrogance.

S: I’m totally showing my spiritual arrogance, aren’t I.

[laughter]

T: You’re totally showing your spiritual arrogance! That’s how we did – they’re Christian in name only, not really Christian like us.

S: Oh come on Tracey, they weren’t, come on.

T: I know, but how do you tell the gospel message to someone who grew up probably more churched than we did.

S: Yep, yep.

T: It’s definitely a weird dynamic in there, they need to get saved and they probably absolutely think they’re saved.

S: But you’re right; it really wasn’t about human connection. It wasn’t about true compassion and care for the individual, at all.

T: No.

S: It was about, let’s get some notches in our bible belt.

T: Yes, and then I think it was overwhelmingly depressing because they’re there to talk and they want to have relationship, and…

S: That’s not what we were there for.

T: We were not there for that.

S: Alright, we gotta find a place to eat before we get to our destination tour.

T: Yes. We already tried gas station tacos and we decided nope, we’re going to try something else.

S: It had a good review. We didn’t know it was a gas station. We pulled over and we’re like oh, ok – which we still would have done except there was a huge line…

T: Barbeque in two miles at Dukes. That looks good. Barbeque at Dukes.

D: Check it.

S: Oh, check it. Ok, I’ve gotta get off. Bye.

…

S: Ok, wait, where did my little mic thing go. Ok, we’ve just pulled off of i20 onto – we should get a picture of that – onto 110 – oh there it is. It’s the Youth With A Mission, the Journey Coffee House, we’re just passing it. I will say the sign is a little faded and worn. Ok.

T: We’ll have to get coffee there.

S: Well you can get coffee there.

T: I would totally get coffee there.

S: I think that’s the devil’s drink.

T: I do not. I think they’re going to witness to us.

S: Oh that would be fun!

T: Yeah!

S: Oh that would be really fun.

T: Yes, wouldn’t that be really fun?

S: Alright, we will definitely stop there.

T: I told Dave to put on his [indistinguishable]

D: [laughing]

S: Wait a second, I remember this road.

T: Of course you do!

S: It’s been 37 years since I’ve been here and I remember this curve. Oh my gosh. Wow.

T: The Youth With A Mission café – that was here seven years ago.

S: That wasn’t here when I was here.

T: No, it wasn’t. Oh and there’s the Community Christian Fellowship.

S: Now that’s a newer…

T: CCF.

S: Did they build that when I was here? There was a building.

D: That’s a newer building.

S: That doesn’t look like what it was. And this is the old Agape Force on the right, isn’t it? Tracey, is this the old Agape Force? Yeah yeah, see the Western Town?

T: Yeah, the Western Town.

S: The Western Town store fronts.

T: They actually did CCF.

S: Oh my god. There was a Christian school here, my poor youngest sister got sentenced – she came and lived with Keith and Melody and foster daughter Dawn, and she went to eighth grade here.

T: Did Dawn have to go here though? Dawn went to Van but I wasn’t sure if that was later or if she was already in high school.

S: My sister was younger than Dawn.

T: Oh that makes sense.

S: I – wow. Wow. I remember I rode – we rode the horses, my sister and I rode Rose and one of the other horses all the way up to the Agape Force school for the harvest costume party. Remember, it couldn’t be Halloween.

T: No, it couldn’t be. I don’t even think we at Last Days recognized Harvest though.

S: No. But the school did.

T: I did later on, when my kids were older. But that was even controversial.

S: Wow. Oh my gosh. This is a trip. How many times I drove this road.

T: If we had gotten off just a little bit before we would have come up right at Last Days and then come back around here.

S: Yep. We’ll drive the other way after this.

[silence]

S: And is this – wait, was this Twin Oaks on the left? No wait, was this Wilkerson – what’s on the left here.

T: I don’t know, I think Twin Oaks…

S: It’s somewhere else, Twin Oaks is more towards Tyler.

T: I think it’s on a different… I don’t know, we’re coming up on something.

S: What is this? There was Dale Brown’s house?

D: I’m taking a right?

S: Yeah, you turn right here.

GPS: Turn right on Farm to Market Road 1253 north…

T: This is the Brown’s house.

S: This is where I got married! This is where my wedding was. Oh my god, we’re going to have to – I don’t think they’ll let us go in there, but that’s where my wedding was. Wow.

GPS: Continue on Farm to Market Road 1253 north for half a mile…

D: Garden Valley church – bible church?

S: That’s a new thing.

T: It’ll be interesting who goes there. All these other – I thought that said a singing sermon, I was like oh, you can go to a singing sermon!

S: You know, Father Heart was named after John Dawson’s teachings.

T: John Dawson’s, yeah.

S: John Dawson the dickhead. [laughing]

T: Great. So my cousin – another fun fact that you don’t even know – my dad’s cousin’s daughter, so we call her my cousin, went off to Youth With A Mission and worked with Beverley at Father Heart for years. That was where she served her Youth With A Mission.

S: Wow. Ok, we’re now at the four-way stop sign which is Garden Valley Texas. Before you turn here babe…

T: It’s Farm Road 16!

S: Yeah, FM16 but before you turn – on that far corner, that was Miss Tiny’s house. That was the first schoolhouse for girls that we bought. We were like, buying up everything right.

T: Miss Tiny’s was a bit further in.

S: Oh ok I got it wrong.

T: We’ll take you to it.

S: I got it wrong.

T: They demolished it, so it’s gone.

D: This guy’s right on my tail.

S: Ok, a guy’s right on your tail. We gotta keep going.

T: Cos he’s got farm living to do.

GPS: Turn left onto County Road 442, then your destination will be on the right.

T: Yep. Look at that.

D: This guy keeps coming in.

T: Maybe it’s ****. Maybe he’s tormenting you. I don’t know. He really is close to you.

S: Ok.

D: Here he goes.

T: He’s so pissed at you!

S: Yeah. Here we are. Alright, by the way, when we’re on this tour with other people they’re all Christians. We’re going to be very respectful. We don’t want to offend anyone.

T: This time.

[laughter]

…

Keith Green music plays

T: Ok. Recording.

S: Oh wow, do you smell that honeysuckle?

T: I do. I smelled it when I came seven years ago. It’s very, very pronounced.

S: I’ll take a picture of it before we leave.

T: You and I are sitting here in the Garden Valley Cemetery – what’s straight ahead Sharon?

S: Behind us is the headstone for Keith and his children Josiah and Bethany, and 30 feet in front of us is the headstone for Leonard Ravenhill. So major old times.

T: I think that was by design that Keith’s headstone is – the front of the headstone would be facing away from Keith’s grave but they engraved it on the back so you could see Leonard Ravenhill from Keith’s tombstone.

S: Got it. Yeah. So we have spent a couple of hours – more than a couple.

T: More than a couple of hours!

S: Three and a half hours visiting first the Last Days Ministries old property which changed hands to Teen Mania, then now JAMA – what does it stand for again?

T: Jesus – ohhh, something.

S: Jesus Awakening?

T: Jesus Awakening Mission for America?

S: I don’t know, we’ll figure it out.

T: I keep remembering it then I forget it. It’s Jesus and it’s Awakening, it’s Ministry and it’s America. And Global.

S: Something in there.

T: And they were very gracious.

S: They were very gracious.

T: I think that they continue to have people that used to be at Last Days Ministries come for a tour so they’ve always been very gracious to open it up so that we could walk.

S: And of course there’s a lot of new buildings and missing is the ranch house and other buildings that we were used to. The ones that remain, the cafeteria, the dorms, the office building, the warehouse, the print shop have been bricked over and gussied up, so they definitely look different than the little bit more humble abodes that we were in.

T: That’s actually – we had a lot of pride about that, because in this area where there are a lot of other ministries we had a very simple sign, a little brown sign, we had the old dirt road that led up to the old brown ranch house, and then the dirt paths all went to the metal buildings – the metal print shop building, the office building, and then our biggest build was the worship cafeteria, which I’d forgotten that we had an architect on staff. Did you remember that?

S: Tracy Hansen. Yep. He designed it. You know, each thing though – when we went to that cafeteria worship center, it felt smaller than what I remember it, what it was in my memory. I was like, wow this is interesting that it seemed so much bigger to me way back when, and I wonder how much of that is I was still – I was like, 17, 18 years old – well, 17 when I first went to California, and turned 18 in Texas and still that kind of juvenile mindset. But it definitely – yeah, everything felt smaller to me than what I recalled. How about you?

T: Yeah, I don’t know how much that is because we had so many people crammed around us. That would tend to make you maybe think it would be smaller, but it was just so many people everywhere. When you look now at the size of that – at one point there was 150 people, and we would come in and I think maybe that’s why we remember it a little bigger. I took a picture of it, in the cafeteria there’s these little booths that you could have some privacy if you were eating and you didn’t want to be eating at the big tables. I had many one on ones and some pretty heartfelt, a lot of tears in those booths, and they looked tiny to me. Tiny.

S: Yeah, they felt bigger than – you know what else Tracey, that’s the building that you got married in.

T: That is the building that I got married in!

S: How did that feel to be back there?

T: I was so glad we could get inside of it, because when I came seven years ago I could only do the perimeter of the property, I couldn’t go through it so that’s the first time I’ve been in the cafeteria since – how many years did we discover it was? 37 years?

S: Well, 1987 so what is that, 37 years ago.

T: So I haven’t been inside of there since I left and there was this little fireside room that I remember having to repent because at the time when we were courting we were in there alone for too long and may have had some PDA – public displays of affection.

S: It was private! Private displays of affection.

T: So that was really cool to go into that room and then to come out into the big area – I think the cafeteria line was probably the most the same for me.

S: Yeah, the stainless steel, the food service line.

T: I don’t think they replaced that piece of equipment and that did seem smaller to me. I think we may have had maybe something else attached to the end of that line, and then there was a drinks segment over afterwards, but we spent a lot of time going through that food line.

S: Yeah. You know, I just thought of something. It’s almost like metaphorical. Everything seems like in reality now. It’s not that it seems smaller; it’s like we’re seeing it in the size it really is. In our minds way back then, and at the time, everything seemed so big and important and grandiose. And now the perspective is – wow, we were a bunch of idealistic and yet quite arrogant people, I think.

T: It’s a weird combination, right, because I find that to be true still in people who are still in the fundamentalist mindset. Your highest goal is to be humble. You’re trying to attain this level of humility, but there’s such an arrogance that can’t help because you’re the only one to have the truth, and then of course here we were sitting in East Texas, which is a very Christian – as you would say, a very cultural Christian environment.

S: Right!

T: Churches on literally – we passed three or four churches already.

S: I know.

T: And ministries – there’s ministries down the street, but we really thought we were set apart.

S: Well, we were Tracey.

T: We were set apart. So yeah we have this pride in our humility. We had the smaller sign; we didn’t pave our roads; we wouldn’t spend God’s money, so even walking around…

S: Ok yeah, but I gotta say this. The other thing – both looking at this one, thinking back on it when it was still Last Days Tracey, I’m thinking holy shit, there was a fuck ton of money. The money! The money! And yet we were living with barely getting any spending money, and having to pay for an extra glass of orange juice. The dichotomy. The contrast. And driving around, going back to the old Agape Force property, which is now Mercy Ships and driving all through that, and then Twin Oaks Ranch which used to be David Wilkerson and is now YWAM – still you know what astounds me Tracey is the money.

T: The money.

S: The money! The tax-free money. God I wish we could have visibility to what that really is, right?

T: I so wish we could. That’s what I said in the van as we were driving by. The property in this area is gorgeous, and also we’re here in the spring, so the wild flowers are carpeting all of the fields, there’s a nice breeze in the air. The property is just vast. I would love to be able to look into the finances of what it takes to keep this up, what it took to purchase some of these facilities, are they carrying debt, how are they getting their donations? I asked a couple of questions from some of the people that we were with – how are they doing? I do think that in this time of deconstruction where so many people are looking for something less organized in their spiritual life, I wonder if these are going to come to an end at some point.

S: These big, giant, mega things. Yeah, I don’t know. Hey, you know, there was one bit of information that I did not know about and I don’t think you did. We noticed that there was this like, water treatment, sewage treatment area, whatever – utility structures and I didn’t remember those having been here before. I pointed them out to someone and they said oh yeah, that’s actually the reason why Last Days had to close down, as far as when they shut down. Melody and her husband at the time, Andrew Sievright – in I guess, 95/96, whenever that was. And I said wait, what are you talking about? And the person said, and actually made a phone call to someone else to verify.

T: Did they verify it. I didn’t know that, I was like we’re going to have to vet this.

S: No, no, they got on the phone. You were talking to somebody else but I was there, they got on the phone and yes, so what happened was that it was so out of code and needed to be upgraded, and the County gave them a year to get this done, but it was like, a few million dollars or something like that to get it done, and they were already on the edge in not having enough finances that they could not afford to just get the septic system up to code, and that’s what caused them to leave. But that’s not what we hear. That’s not what – oh it’s God’s timing. It’s just God’s timing. Ok. Well, whatever. But it’s like – the whitewash that goes over things, instead of just being transparent and saying you know what, this is just not economically sustainable, we can’t do this because of all this so it’s time for us to move on. No, we’ve gotta spiritualize it, we’ve got to make it God leading us and – anyway.

T: Yeah, and the amount of – I mean, you have property now, so you know the amount of money it takes to continue to upkeep grounds, and even to build, is very, very deep pockets. We did hear that some of those donations were starting to dry up because it had changed. If you were people that were receiving it at that time, it had lost its edge. Of course, Keith was the big draw for a lot of the financial support. That is why Youth With A Mission’s model is so insidious and yet successful, because they have been able to pump fresh tuition through their gates that people are paying to come and get this training and go on these mission trips.

S: Not just any people! Young, gullible, impressionable, vulnerable people. That’s where the money is coming from, and that’s just sad.

T: Yeah, and Last Days Ministries never really had that as their model, to put that many people through.

S: No.

T: You can see from the surrounding areas. Like I said, I look around, and I think we saw on the Youth With A Mission some areas that were not kept up like they used to be kept up, right?

S: Oh definitely.

T: These are some vast and sprawling pieces of property, and I have – and maybe it’s just my cynical side – I think the newer generations and where they’re pursuing spirituality, I think there might be an end to this.

S: That would be wonderful.

T: I really think there might be an end to these types of ministries.

S: And yet on the drive here I saw this flag that says Jesus is my Savior, Trump is my President, God and guns. So there is a different militancy that’s growing. We thought we were God’s Army and we were twisted in some way, but now this whole shift to Christian Nationalism that we would not recognize. I don’t think the historical Jesus would recognize this.

T: No, no, the historical Jesus wouldn’t recognize it. I do think that type – and it was guys, it was a terrible truck with some pretty awful big flags flying out the back of the bed, and one had Fuck Biden. In the midst of Jesus is my Savior.

[laughter]

T: Maybe they went to your school.

[laughter]

T: I don’t see that type funding these types of ministries.

S: Nope, they’re just gonna buy $65 bibles from Trump.

[laughter]

T: Exactly. That’s a whole other rabbit hole.

S: Ok. I want to bring this back – I know I’m rambling and going off into crazy stuff, but…

T: To crazy stuff.

S: What was – there are three places on this day that have been kind of – I don’t know, profound, or just made me think and feel in a certain way. They were where the old ranch house used to be; Dale Brown’s old house, which is now Living Alternative’s Father Heart ministries, and then here where we’re sitting right now at Keith’s grave. I was going to talk a little bit about those, but how about for you? Was there anything in particular for you?

T: Well, absolutely the cafeteria worship center, because that is where I got married. That’s the last place I saw my father alive.

S: Ohh I did not know that. Wow Tracey.

T: He had come and – we’ll put a picture up, but it’s kind of built into a hillside so the top part are these guest rooms or hotel rooms, so my dad stayed there for the wedding, and of course my husband at the time, his parents also stayed there. My sister stayed there; we had relatives coming from all over. That was my dad’s first time on the ministry property, and he was impressed. I think he was more surprized that everyone was super nice and super friendly to him. And then we went in to the service which we’ll put the show notes in our – the wedding that never ended. He did walk out of the wedding and that was the last time I ever saw him alive. But just being back in that cafeteria building and seeing how it’s changed, and some of the things that were the same, and – yeah. That was pretty profound for me. Then definitely the ranch house tree stump. That’s all that’s left is the tree stump, so I’ll let you talk a little bit more. We both lived in the ranch house, so even though I came after you, that was where a lot of us were living in the early days. That was one of my first jobs I ever had; cleaning out the horrible stuff out of the cans that had been rotting there since 1900 I’m sure. And then obviously this grave site where we’re at, but it was really good for me to see the Brown’s house. We were very fortunate to be able to go in and our ICT had many picnics there. I took a picture of the outdoor grill area; we used to be able to go to the swimming pool, it was just always this really welcoming stone home, because we didn’t have homes, right. We were living in dormitories in three high bunks and if you were – like, you married, you still lived in a back room, or in these little tiny framed houses so this was a very welcoming stone home. So, yeah. Those were my three.

S: Well, I guess sort of the chronological order – oh there was another one, it was the runway.

T: Oh, we didn’t get to walk on the runway. It would have been helpful.

S: No, but we drove. I would have liked to have done that, but anyway. So standing on the site where the ranch house used to be and orienting myself – I remember it like it was yesterday. The walking out that front door after Keith had – it was like, 10 o’clock at night, and Keith had said ok, you and Martin. You guys are now going to be in a special relationship – which is of course all about having prayed and believing this is what God wants. I mean, Keith and Martin having done that. And I remember walking out that front door, in the dark, with that porch light on, and me just saying, I don’t know about you, but this just feels really weird. I can envision it like it was yesterday, Tracey, so standing there looking down the hill where the entrance was, and the cedar trees that were on either side of the house. And then, remembering three weeks after that, sitting in the living room of that ranch house, on the couch, Keith saying he wanted to talk to me, and basically saying you know, you’re ready to get married, and setting that whole thing in motion. That was kind of surreal to stand there again and remember that’s what happened. Then when we went to the Brown’s house, and walking into that room with that fireplace – it was … I remember the feeling of kind of like deer in the headlights and dissociation. That’s what I remember. I know a couple of people were like, oh you got married there, and expecting me to be happy and joyful, and I’m like – this is just so strange. So strange.

T: No, you were definitely overcome. We had people around us who were gracious to give us the tour, but I knew that you could have used a moment there. You could have used a moment there.

S: But it’s alright. I’ve got the tools to take care of myself.

[gentle laughter]

S: Then let’s see. Oh, before we had – chronologically we had gone there before, we went to the Brown’s house but then drove part way down the old runway and could see the tree line where the plane had…

T: It’s not very far.

S: No. Where the plane had gone down. Remembering that day, and then now we’re here at Keith’s grave, not only Keith but Josiah and Bethany.

T: Yeah.

S: And Tracey, I’m looking at the gravestone and realizing he would have been 70 years old right now.

T: Seventy years.

S: Seventy!

T: I would so love to put into an AI app to just see what would 70 year old Keith be like?

S: Oh my gosh, yes.

T: Right? Because you know when I hear that I’m like, oh wow, all old, but we’re only ten years off of that.

S: I’m only six years off of that!

T: We’re not far off of that, and that still kind of surprizes me.

S: Seven years off – I can’t even do math.

T: Yeah, when you get this old it’s hard – the brain starts to rust out a little bit. But yeah, I think one of the most profound things is – I’ve always had a good memory. I think you have a good memory.

S: Meh.

T: I have a better memory, I think, than…

S: You have a better memory.

T: ..than you do. You always hear these older people say I don’t feel that far away from that younger version of myself, right? In many ways I feel miles away because of everything we’ve been through, but the feelings, the emotions – I will say, when you’re in a high control community like that, the emotional impact is so intensive and so deep that there were places like the booth – I would say the booth. I remember having a conversation before I was going to get married, and my hair was falling out, and I was crying to another brother just some of the emotional angst I was in, and different parts of walking between the buildings – we had so much intensity. I had so much angst and intensity, so that property is a reminder of the places I was carrying all that. We’ll go by – we haven’t gone by there yet, but Miss Tiny’s is where I spent most of my time. It’s called Miss Tiny’s because before Last Days bought it, a little woman lived in there. Very crooked floor, little crooked house with a very crooked floor – maybe, probably a crooked lady. I cried – I spent so much time in tears and angst during my time here. That was, I think, the first time I had come back seven years ago was one of the most stark reminders of [inhales sharply] I don’t have that heaviness. I don’t have that sense of introspection. I don’t have the sense of the weight of the world and the sins of the earth on my head and my heart, and I’m just such a warm – it’s like I for the first time am going, this is such a beautiful property. There’s flowers blooming. I literally did not notice flowers before.

S: You know what? That is so true. I’m driving around going this is really pretty. I don’t remember it as being pretty and I think you’re right. It’s a reflection of what was going on in us. We were with a number of people today that got us access to the property and also to the Brown’s house – very gracious, very gracious. One was a former brother at Last Days and he’s still in the area and still a believer, and just a lovely, lovely human being. There was another woman who was also – she had been at another sister ministry here, way back when.

T: Way back in your days.

S: Yep, way back in 79 as well. She also is still a believer, and also has gone through some revaluation of a lot of the things – the crazy stuff that I think all these high control ministries put people through.

T: Yes. Without accountability – I will just throw that out there, but continue.

S: Right. Without accountability.

T: We’ve had to work this through, but there’s never been any published accountability.

S: No!

T: Of hey, we got this wrong. Never.

S: No. Nobody’s ever admitted to it. But a thing I found interesting when we were driving through one of the other ministry properties – she pointed to a hillside and she said with such beautiful sincerity, it’s like, no matter what happened, all the other bad stuff and the good stuff – no matter what, out there under the stars, I know what happened between me and Jesus and nothing can ever take that away. You know Tracey I resonated with that, because I had those experiences too. That sense of the presence of this loving, powerful source of all of creation and everything, and the other thing that I have also experienced is after beginning to question the – what I now call the bible box, the whole fundamental Evangelical Christian paradigm – questioning that, and being terrified to question, and pursuing truth and trying to understand and trying to understand myself, I have had those same experiences. I no longer label that Jesus. I believe that that transcendent connection, whether you want to call it Universe, The Universe, or consciousness, or source or whatever – I believe that those experiences of profound truth and love – I believe they are emanating from within us, from the part of us that is connected to everything else in the universe.

T: Yes.

S: And so I get that, right, I don’t take away from it from what she was saying, and I also have experienced it beyond the it has to be Jesus thing.

T: Yeah. So we didn’t get to walk – out before you get to the runway, to the left where the ranch house would be if you walked over into the field, there was a pathway in there where I used to go, where I would have my spiritual orgasms with Jesus.

[laughter]

T: And I would dance, because I would envision that I was going to be a ballerina at Jesus’ feet, and that was going to be one of my expectations of heaven, that I would be able to dance.

S: Uh huh.

[laughter]

S: You can pole dance now though, I know you can!

T: I can pole dance. So those were profound times that have vivid memories, because it’s out in these beautiful fields, you can smell the air, but it was still tinged for me, with I am so unworthy – right.

S: Right.

T: So that connection…

[sirens sound, coming closer]

S: Wait, wait, is that the police coming to get us? Hold on. We’re fairly close to a major road here.

T: Which is unusual to hear sirens out here I think, because we’re kind of off the beaten path.

S: We kind of are. They’ll pass in a moment.  And then you’re going to try to remember what you were saying.

T: I can remember what I was saying. I mean, it’s not hard to forget spiritual orgasms.

[laughter]

[sirens sound closer and closer]

S: Wow, they’re getting closer. Are they coming for you.

T: Maybe we broke into the cemetery.

S: Well wait a second, you know I did go down in the corner and pee.

T: You did!

S: I did pee in the corner.

T: It’s the pee police. They’ve found you. They’re moving… so May out here in East Texas is beautiful. It’s really beautiful.

S: But this is April.

[Sharon laughs hysterically]

T: Ok. So May is also beautiful, and April is just getting ready to be beautiful. I think I came last time in May but it’s the same. It’s still beautiful.

[laughter]

S: Oh god.

T: So I think – we didn’t have time really talk about where this other person came from, but there was enough hints that it was also coming from trauma, which is something I’ve seen in all of us.

S: Yes.

T: We came from not feeling the most loved and connected in our nuclear families…

S: Right.

T: And we were then ripe to be in this environment that we were going to be accepted and that God who loves us – some of those experiences were the first time we ever could connect with that.

S: Right. You’re right.

T: And it was important, and it was life changing, but to me as I see it as a pathway to still go forward because it isn’t built on me having to just be so empty of all my humanity. And so I think those are real experiences, but there were also a little – still have abusive tentacles to them.

S: Oh yeah, because we were still never worthy.

T: We were never worthy.

S: The difference now to me, in connecting with the idea of whether you  want to call it divine source or cosmic consciousness or whatever, is that I’m enough. I’m ok. I’m complete. I’m not something that needs to be cleaned up and fix, in the sense of the essence of who I am. Traumas and wounding and adaption – yeah, there’s stuff that can get better and more healthy, but it’s not because I intrinsically am worthless.

T: Correct. And that was the definition of why we loved so much, because he dared to love us who were so bad.

S: So unlovable.

T: Yeah. And then it made us emote I think in all these spiritual orgasm ways.

S: Right.

T: But those are definitely real experiences and I do think we both try to be gentle with people who are trying to tell us that part of their story. I think we did a good job, trying to be respectful.

S: I think so.

T: Of people’s experiences. We may have said a little too much at one point.

S: I did at one point. There was another person who’s very much active in ministry, and very enthusiastic about how Keith and Last Days really, really helped this person, and was kind of gushing about how wonderful it was that we worked so hard and were able to provide things for free, and that helped this person’s life to be impacted for the good. Of course, I’m just thinking – yeah ok, six days per week, 10-12 hours per day, you had to pay for another half a glass of fucking orange juice and the control and the use – being used – it’s like, nah. I don’t think it was an even trade. I don’t think it was an even trade.

T: No. What did you say to him? I was talking to somebody else, and I could – I tried very hard to use my very – I don’t know what you would call them skills, to try to weave myself out of very confronting type of conversations and weave it back so…

S: I just said – well, the person had heard me saying earlier when we were in the old print shop, talking about the hours we worked, and sometimes staying up for 48 hours straight. So in this case I just said well, I’m really glad that it helped you.

T: Aww see, that’s good.

S: That’s all I said.

T: That’s good. So we did get to go into this big cavernous – it used to be a warehouse, and now it’s brick – I think it’s very interesting that they covered the metal buildings with brick.

S: They’re all covered with brick, yep.

T: So they all have a façade on them that looks much more impressive than it did in our…

S: Is that a bit more metaphorical as well?

T: Yes, it is. It is a bit metaphorical in our ragtag days. But yeah, standing there and in our mind’s eye, of course, thinking I would love to print it out and then like, you know with AI put back the equipment that we knew and where it went so that we could get our bearings of where we were and how – you know that pathway, that red dirt pathway between…

S: Right.

T: At one point the ranch house and building, because that’s where we went, back and forth, back and forth, and then eventually to the cafeteria – it’s like this triangular pathway we would do at all hours – which is why we weren’t seeing the pretty flowers growing because we were working so hard. You know, I think that there are people that are former Last Days Ministries people who do not like to hear us speak negatively about it, because it’s like – yeah…

S: Oh yeah!

T: You could hear it in some of the group today – of yeah but you know, we meant it for good and all of this. I think one of the reasons we do this is – no, this is taking advantage of young people. Yes no one held a gun to our head, and yes we had some good times, yes we bonded in some relationship but when you step back, there was a few at the top, and there was a hierarchy of leadership that happens at every one of these ministries that we’re driving around.

S: Every one of them!

T: Every one of them! And there are good, precious souls who want to do something bigger than themselves, and who want to make a contribution and they get exploited. We can see it clearly, and I guess that’s what disappoints me about some of my generation now, is ok, sure, our journeys – they are what made us who we are, but you don’t get to gloss over the exploitation that has been done to these precious young people, and continues to be done. You don’t get to gloss over that.

S: No.

T: We have a voice, we experienced that, and I want to see that stop. There’s other ways for young people to really make a contribution to this world.

S: I agree.

T: And it doesn’t have to come on the backs of this high control and manipulation and indoctrination. It doesn’t have to come on the back of that.

S: No, it doesn’t.

T: That’s my soap box.

S: Ok. You know what?

T: What?

S: I’m getting hungry.

T: Ok.

S: How about we pause – no don’t…

T: I’m not, I’m just getting ready.

S: Ok. So how about we’ll pause this, and I’m sure we’ll have more to talk about either later tonight or tomorrow, before we leave.

T: I think we will, because we haven’t even gone by Miss Tiny’s.

S: Oh shit, my cleavage is showing there.

T: Ooooh.

S: Oh well. Woohoo.

T: I will definitely try to get that in, folks!

S: Oh god.

[laughter]

T: I’m going to pause it.

S: Ok. She was doing a selfie.

[laughter]

…

Keith Green music plays

…

T: Alright, we’re going.

S: We are. You gotta come closer.

T: I do!

S: So, this is our second day.

T: Is it only our second day? I feel like we’ve lived three days.

S: Yeah, well…

T: In these last days.

S: Well it’s actually only a little bit more than 24 hours really.

T: Wow. We’ve packed a lot in, Sharon.

S: We have. And we’re on our way back to DFW right now, to drop you off. I’m staying.

T: You are staying.

S: I’m going to try to catch the solar eclipse. I think we’ll have to hightail it to Arkansas but hopefully we’ll get away from some of the cloud cover, but we shall see.

T: Yes. And then I’m flying to my job in another part of the path of totality.

S: Yep.

T: So we’re heading out. This has been such a mixture of deep emotions, really just gratitude at seeing some people that we haven’t seen in many, many decades.

S: Yeah.

T: And I think – I’m going to ask you what your overarching feelings are. So we did the property and we have to talk about that but today we spent some time meeting people we haven’t seen in so long. And I’m just so proud of so many of these women who have come out of everything that we’ve come out of and talked about, and are doing so well, and have crafted a new life for themselves, and are just thriving. It makes me very, very happy to see that. I think we all could relate that we all had to come out of some stuff to make that happen.

S: We did. You know it’s interesting – you just said that, the three women. Thinking of all the folks we were with at Last Days, I’d be interested to tally and see of those who have deconstructed, or gotten into a more healthy spot – what percentage are women and what percentage are men? It almost seems to me like men are hanging in there with the old belief system more than women, but I don’t know.

T: Yeah, that may just be our own experience with the ones we’re in contact with. But we didn’t know – when we meet old friends from a long time ago, we’re not quite sure where everybody’s at. So even people who may still declare a certain amount of faith – they have definitely allowed the old…

S: They’ve gone to the bush god.

T: They’ve gone to –

S: They’ve gone to the bush god!

T: Understanding some freedom and grace and empowerment, and for women, that’s what’s missing. So…

S: Yeah. Hey, I wanted to circle back on something we mentioned in our talking earlier this morning when we weren’t recording.

T: I know, we should have recorded. We have our most profound conversations when the recording is not on.

S: Yeah. Well, it was reflecting back on some of the conversation yesterday when we were touring the old Last Days property and some of the other ministry properties in the area, and we had a mix of folks with us who were gracious spending their time to guide us.

T: Yes. Very graciously.

S: And I think all of them were still believers, but different degrees of extreme – I’m going to say different degrees of extremism, or moderation.

T: Moderation is  a good word, yeah.

S: But one thing we heard from a couple of folks was the idea of looking back and going you know, I need to just not focus on the negative, because there’s good stuff. We need to move on past the negative. That’s something that we hear a lot.

T: A lot.

S: And it occurred to me this morning that I think people – they feel very uncomfortable, right. They’ve got this picture of the past, or what happened, and these giants of the faith that they look up to and this ministry that did all this great shit, and the idea that things were not ideal – or way not ideal.

T: Way not ideal! And they’ll acknowledge that.

S: Yes, they’ll acknowledge it but they very quickly need and want to move on.

T: Yes.

S: It’s just too uncomfortable to spend time considering it, giving it space. It’s a – and let’s focus on the good!

T: Yes, which is why people who are with us I think really are uncomfortable with our podcast, because everybody is very eager to get on and move forward – and there is a balance to that, right, as far as spending so much time and dwelling in the negative is not healthy…

S: Right.

T: And so I think where we come from it’s like, well I don’t think we’re living in the past and dwelling on the negative because we did move on, and we did come out of it and not look back for a while. And yet being able to unpack our own trauma of what led us there, and then the things that were very unhealthy. You can have both of those existing at the same time.

S: Yes, and there’s a difference between I’m dwelling in it, I’m steeping in it –[GPS speaks] oops, you got the directions babe? Doing alright? Ok, there’s a difference between that like, I’m just going to steep in it and focus on it, and dwell in it and make it my life – you know, that whole root of bitterness bullshit, versus ok, I’ve moved on but I need to acknowledge it, and there should be accountability, and there should be a warning about these exact same things continuing to happen.

T: Yeah, and we’ll get that via messages that come to us via Facebook or Instagram, it’s like – why can’t you just be grateful. A lot of people say, why can’t you just be grateful for the past, and it’s that double edged sword. Of course in our marriages we’re absolutely grateful for our children, we wouldn’t be who we are without them; we’re grateful for the friendships – I mean, today, some of the people that we haven’t seen in so long, there’s such a bonding there, and yet at the same time those very unhealthy, extremist, control, exploitation, indoctrination didn’t have to happen.

S: No, it didn’t.

T: So you can absolutely call that out and say we need – I mean, it took us years to unwind that shit.

S: Right. And you had mentioned this morning there’s this scripture that gets quoted – hang on…

T: We might have to pause.

…

S: Ok, we had to pause for a moment for directions and traffic, and thankfully my wonderful husband Dave continues to be our chauffeur.

T: Yes, and we are in some traffic from – I guess the upcoming eclipse. Or maybe it’s just Dallas.

S: It might just be Dallas. Ok, I was starting to say that this morning, one thing you mentioned was people will often quote that – ok yeah, bad things happen but God…

T: Works all things – you forget your scripture, my dear.

S: Oh yes.

T: All things work together for good to those who love him and are called according to his purposes.

S: Right. To which I said, ok alright, so let’s just say that. All things work together for good, so the bad stuff God uses and it works together for good. Then why even bother stopping any of the bad stuff? Then we really – it’s all ok, isn’t it.

T: Yeah, and you’ll notice – at least I’ve noticed it, usually that’s when the quick brush aside comes, because that’s a lot to think about. You have to start to put those things together and say well no, no, no, I wouldn’t agree that you don’t ever stop bad things, or no, no, no, I wouldn’t agree that you wouldn’t try to improve things. So what do you do?

S: Oop, hold on. Hold on again.

…

[GPS speaks]

T: So we’re in my favorite place Dallas, and there’s all these signs to Waco. It always reminds me how close we were, and we even had a conversation this weekend about maybe David Koresh had come to visit our property, but we haven’t been able to vet that. So right now we consider it rumor but we’ve been asking around if that could be true.

S: Yeah, and several people have a vague recollection, so… alright – sorry this episode folks, is so start stop, but you know what, it’s real, it’s raw, it’s recorded live without editing.

T: Without editing!

S: I don’t even know what you were saying Tracey.

T: We were talking about our conversation this morning and about how uncomfortable people are with recognizing the deep harm – and I would say deep harm that happened, and to your point earlier about women, I don’t have the stats on it either, but I think just the nature of the toxic belief that women in these organizations do have it harder than men.

S: Yeah, I agree.

T: So we’ll meet with some men, and it’s almost like, just be grateful, be grateful, be grateful for everything that we had. Well, I think mature, non black and white thinkers can look at that and be able to parse out – yes, it wasn’t all, all, all bad, or we wouldn’t have stayed.

S: That’s right.

T: But because there were nuggets of things that we learned and experienced, does not excuse the deep harm that was done to many, and the deep harm that we participated in.

S: Yep. Alright Tracey, we got just a couple of minutes here to wrap up. What do you want to say? You are posting some amazing things on Instagram.

T: Yes, so we have posted a lot of the visuals. I think some of it is to the point we have moved on; we have been able to glean the good, so we’re smiling. I think there’s the one artwork where it’s from Asleep in the Light, where can’t you see all the people sinking down, and everyone’s drowning, and you and I are in front of it. We were so excited to see this original piece, we’re like look, look, let’s take a picture. And then I’m looking at the picture going oooh, we’re a little too smiley.

S: Too happy while all the people are drowning.

T: Too happy while all the people are sinking down because it just doesn’t have that weight with us anymore; it doesn’t have that pull.

S: Right.

T: But we are posting as we’ve gone through. We ended up finding a treasure trove of all the old LDM magazines and the tracks, with some pretty amazing artwork. The artwork is – wow, that’s kind of clever.

S: You know, one thing I want to do, because so many people have commented how the magazine – the Last Days newsletter would come into their mailbox and they would just be under this dreaded cloud of guilt and shame. I kind of want to take a few of those articles and comment on them, like, line by – maybe not line by line, but pull out the more egregious bullshit and say yeah, here’s the crap, people.

T: So in that, and I want to make this important point before we get there – what I also noticed as people were trying to brush aside, we were just young. How many times this weekend did we hear that?

S: Oh, that’s right! Oh we were all just young.

T: We were all just young; we were all just naïve. But no one has really taken responsibility for – not just how we treated each other, but what we printed.

S: Yes. Yeah.

T: Ok, we were young, and the way we dealt with each other and there was high control in the environment, but we printed – what did you say, a shit…

S: A shit ton.

T: …ton of propaganda and literature, and we were sending these out by the hundreds of thousands to the millions.

S: And we are sorry, people.

T: And it’s awful stuff!

S: It is.

T: So it’s not just, oh we were tough on each other. It’s like, we have printed some just horrifically legalistic – I don’t even know what you would call it, but I was looking through the artwork and going man, this is rough stuff.

S: It is rough, so I just want to say to those of you who received the newsletters and tracks, many of which actually passed through Tracey’s and my hands as we did the mailing machine – we’re sorry. I wish we could take so much of that back. And for those of you who are the children of our generation who were your parents – they did a lot of what they did because of what we did. We’re sorry.

T: Yeah, they were discipled by this message. And some of those are still not pulled. So we did get several of those, we’re going to go through them. We’ll post a few of them just because it is our history, and we’re not afraid to face it.

S: Right.

T: That’s what I see about so many people, they just put their head down and go oh, it’s just – we just need to brush it aside. No. I want to look at it; I want to read it; I want to remember what I was thinking when I was mailing these things out and not just be able to say oh well, we were just young and naïve. We were just young and naïve.

S: We were young, we were naïve, and we were arrogant, and we were wrong.

T: Yeah. But this has been great, thank you for – thank you God, the world, for having an eclipse because I think that’s what brought us together.

S: [laughing] The timing, anyway.

T: Thank you for being in the pathway, right Dallas, because we could hop, skip and jump to Garden Valley and spend time – and most importantly, thank you to your dear husband Dave…

S: Yes, my love, thank you.

T: Who has driven us, sat with us, and had to listen to this ad nauseum, and he might be on the bandwagon – ok, you guys are living in the past too much, let’s move on, let’s get out of this. So thank you for just waiting for us, as we met people and gone through this – we really appreciate it, a lot.

S: Yes. We do. And thank you dear listeners, and – [laughing]

T: This is our eras tour, so we could do…

S: Errors?

T: Not errors. Eras tour – so this is part of as we unpack and continue on this series it was really helpful for us to get freshly acquainted again with everything, and some people. So – we did it!

S: Alright. Say goodbye Tracey.

T: Goodbye! Tracey.

S: Alright folks. We’ll see you another time.