This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 034 – Bros and Hos … AKA Our Little Bros Troy & Brian: We were ALL Teenage Fundamentalists! AKA My Old Kentucky Home; AKA Talkin Bout the Cult of Keith Green & Melody Green; AKA Go Cowboys! AKA The Longest Podcast Episode Title Ever!

February 28^th, 2024

Troy: …You’ve got a little thing in the corner of your shot there – what are you…

Sharon: Whose, Tracey’s?

Troy: You’ve got a blanket on top of your computer, yeah.

Tracey: It’s my laundry basket, Sharon says. [laughing]

Sharon: It’s her pathetic attempt to improve the quality of her soundtrack because she is trying to sound like the tinman.

Tracey: We already started recording so I guess I should warn you Brian…

Brian: It’s nice to see you not in a cupboard, actually Tracey, because last time we recorded you were in…

Sharon: She’s under a laun…she’s under a fucking laundry basket with towels around her!

Brian: I thought she had a towel around her head when I first came in on the recording, because it looked like she’s just jumped out of the shower.

[laughter]

Sharon: Exactly!

Troy: I thought she had one of those giant teddy bears, I really did. I thought did she have some sort of plushy on her screen?

[laughter]

Tracey: Oh my god you guys.

Brian: And just for the record, we were judging.

Sharon: As you should!

Troy: Totally! Great, well you let us know when you’re ready to start and we’ll kick off.

Tracey: Yeah, we’re gonna start, Sharon.

Sharon: We get to start! It’s our show.

Brian: Is the laundry basket … hold on, is the laundry basket thing intentional? This is what I’m starting to get out of it – is it part of the sound production? Is that right?

Sharon: [laughing] yes!

Brian: [laughing} Wow.

Tracey: Well, we don’t usually do video and I knew we wouldn’t be recording video. My son is home and my dog is home, so I had to go…

Troy: So you’re in the bucket.

[laughter]

Tracey: And I’m like, it’s just Troy and Brian, so…

[gasps of horror]

Troy: [in a horrified whisper] JUST Troy and Brian. Just Troy and Brian.

Tracey: It’s just around my microphone so I don’t get some of that tinny bounce back.

Brian: Oh my god. I’m hanging up.

…

 

Tracey: Hi, I’m Tracey.

Sharon: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

Tracey:  Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

Sharon: Seriously, seriously Tracey, I think this may turn out to be my favorite episode of the entire year.

Tracey: Well, I know that I am super excited and I don’t know if Troy and Brian – oops, I already said who they are…

Sharon: Ohh, you can’t keep a secret, ever! Ever!

Tracey: I know! Our guests today are the two and only (did you see what I did there, instead of the one and only)

Sharon: [laughing] Oh god…

Tracey: The two and only hosts of one of our favorite podcasts … – I was going to say Feet of Clay – I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist! [laughing]

Sharon: Troy and Brian!

Brian: Hi, I’m Brian.

Troy: And I’m Troy, and this is I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist, Not The Longest Name Of a Podcast Ever, Feet of Clay, Cult Sisters – yaay.

Tracey: Ever, ever – or sometimes, as I like to call you, Broy and Trian.

Troy: Nice.

Sharon: Yeah, she did that in a recent recording. Wait a second, I want to hear – Americans, we are anglophiles, we get this thing about accents, so I want you to say hello and introduce yourselves in your best, sexy, Down Under voices.

…

…

Sharon: Nothing? You got nothing?

[laughter]

Brian: [in a radio voice] Well, good evening listeners, this is love songs and dedications. Welcome to Feet of Clay, Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

Sharon: [laughing]

Troy: [in a terrible American accent] Well, hi everybody, I’m Troy, and I’m from Down Under and I just want to say I’m as happy as a peach ta be here!

Tracey: Oh my god, that’s great.

Troy: Didja like that one? That was totally – yeah that was my Kentucky accent.

[laughter]

Tracey: Yes, for listeners, I (Tracey) am about 45 minutes from the Kentucky border, and Troy keeps mentioning – have you been to Kentucky, Troy?

Troy: Umm, I’ve been to the fried chicken place. They have some sort of diplomatic immunity thing right, so when you walk into a KFC you are in fact, on Kentucky soil. I think that’s how it works.

[laughter]

Tracey: Oh my goodness. Yes, and for those who may not know, we actually have a Kentucky Fried Chicken museum that’s right there, almost on the border of Tennessee.

Sharon: Really.

Troy: Of course you do.

Sharon: One of our grandsons on our last trip, we were driving somewhere, I think he’s six years old, and he was like, dad, I wanna go to KkkFffKkk. What is he saying? KkkFffKkk – cos it’s now…

Troy: KfKa. Mmm.

Sharon: He was trying to literally say KFC.  KkkFfffKkk.

Tracey: KFC. [laughing[

Sharon: Yeah. Don’t worry, all that’s gonna get cut out.

Brian: No, I don’t think it should be.

Troy: I think that was good.

Brian: I was going to ask whether you guys also did the abbreviation KFC, or was it still the full  Kentucky Fried Chicken, and it sounds like it’s KkkFffKkk as well.

Sharon: Yes, it’s KkkFffKkk.

Tracey: Yep, they’ve shortened it.

Sharon: Yeah. I think they’re trying to get away from the word fried, because of all the bad health implications, you know? Doesn’t help the brand, but it’s great because you can still sell the same artery clogging, horrible shit, you just call it something different so it sounds like it’s good for you. Hmmm. I kinda remember that in all of our Christian circles, eh??

Brian: Nah, that never happened. I didn’t get any clogged arteries from Jesus.

[laughter]

Brian: Communion’s very light. It’s just a biscuit and some grape juice – how can that clog your arteries? Surely that’s good for you Sharon.

Troy: It clogs up your critical reasoning, that’s what it does. It doesn’t clog up your arteries.

Tracey: Ooooh.

Troy:  Ohh yeah, Troy’s clever.

Tracey: Very, very.

Sharon: Alright, I got a question for you. Lately we’ve been referring to you as our little bros. Two thingSharon: One, we really are your ultimate fan girls, I’m just saying. We are. But I was thinking that since we’re older than you – and actually, Tracey is almost an official grandmother, I think need to dub ourselves your ultimate fan grans.

Tracey: Ohh. I like fan grans.

Brian: Nice – Only Grans. Only Grans.

[laughter]

Troy: Visit my Only Grans page!

Sharon: Yeah!

Troy: Ah, I might not!

Sharon: Hey Tracey – wait, she needs an alternate income source instead of her filthy corporate job, so maybe – maybe.

Tracey: I think it’s a brilliant idea, a brilliant, brilliant idea and that I even know what you guys are talking about. How do you guys know about it??

Brian: How we know about Only Grans? Because we looked at your page. That’s how we know about it.

[laughter]

Troy: I liked that one where you were in the clothes basket. That was hot.

Tracey: Is it very, very hot. I could slowly start throwing things out of the clothing basket.

[laughter]

Brian: Because they’d be dirty.

Sharon: Dirty, oh yeah.

Brian: Dirty clothes! Ooh, look at my dirty clothes!

Troy: These are my dirty clothes! Pass me my dentures.

Tracey: [laughing] oh my god, this is great.

Sharon: [laughing] Alright, does it annoy you guys for us to refer to you as our little bros?

Brian: No, nope, we refer to you as our little hos, so it’s hos and bros.

Troy: That’s right.

[laughter]

Brian: So it’s totally fine.

Troy: I think it’s old hos isn’t it Brian, not little? We say old hos.

Brian: Oh yeah sorry, old hos.

Troy: Old hos and little bros.

Tracey: Old hos.

Brian: In fairness, it actually doesn’t bother me at all. I’ll throw to Troy to see if it bothers him, but you guys aren’t that much older than us. It’s just that we look so young.

Troy: [laughing] That’s right – just that we took better care of ourselves.

Tracey: Exactly I was gonna say Sharon – everyone wants to be the younger ones here.

Sharon: [laughing]

Tracey: What year did you graduate high school? Are you allowed to say that?

Troy: 1988 I graduated.

Tracey: Okay. Yeah.

Brian: I didn’t graduate. I got forcibly removed from high school before graduation.

Sharon: For real?

Brian: Seriously. I went and did an apprenticeship, so I was a pastry chef for many years, and then I went back to university in my late 20s.

Troy: For a little while, Brian made the buns at McDonalds.

Brian: I did.

Sharon: Really.

Brian: Yes, yes.

Tracey: They make those? [laughing]

Brian: Yeah, they’re not just created. They’re not like, manna from heaven, Tracey. Fucking hell. Unbelievable. You just need to get out of your clothes basket.

Tracey: I did not think that any human being had any part in making those.

Sharon: Someone has to make them. Oh my goodness.

Brian: Here’s a fun fact from that time, as I did start my apprenticeship at a very large factory which made all the KFC and McDonalds buns in Victoria, the state were I live, and a fruit loaf – I don’t know whether you call them a fruit loaf or a raisin loaf…

Tracey: Cake?

Brian: No. You might not have it over there, but we have bread here that’s got like, cinnamon and nutmeg and lots of fruit and stuff in it, it’s quite often had for breakfast. It’s a fruit loaf which is absolutely loaded with sugar, but the McDonalds buns had more sugar than a fruit loaf. So that’s part of their secret ingredient – fuck tons of sugar to get you addicted.

Sharon: Wow. Mmhmm.

Tracey: I can’t believe we brought it all back to KFC, as well.

Brian: It’s a word from our sponsors.

Troy: Well, living in Kentucky I thought most things would come back to KFC for you, Tracey.

Tracey: Most things would come back.!

Troy: Yee-ha.

Sharon: Could we get some sponsorship money – money, money, money. That’s what I want – not really.

Tracey: So, true story – when I left at the prime age of 17 to go be a missionary, and I went to be a missionary in South Africa – of course, as you do, we were driving out and the first thing we came to was a Kentucky Fried Chicken. I remember journalling it, being so disappointed, because I thought I was going out into the bush country, out past civilization, and there I was, faced with a Kentucky Fried Chicken. I was like, they beat me here! It’s crazy.

Sharon: Well, as we get started I just wanted to note I’m wearing I What The Fuck merchandise, my backsliding t-shirt.

Troy: We love it.

Sharon: It’s a baseball jersey shirt, or whatever this thing is. I love it. And Troy, my little blue cowboy hat is a nod to your obsession with the Dallas team.

Troy: Awww, is that what it’s for? That’s so kind.

Tracey: Awww.

Troy: Yeah, yeah, we got whipped totally.

Sharon: Yeah, you did.

Troy: I’m sad about that, but life goes on. Life goes on.

Tracey: Maybe the Only Gran will do some high kicks for us at some point in her Dallas cowboy outfit.

[laughter]

Sharon: I’m not showing the camera below the waist, because I am not fully dressed. [laughing]

Tracey: Oh. So before we….

Troy: Did you notice we went quiet then, when she said that. We were like – it’s probably true. Don’t get her to stand up.

Sharon: Yeah, I know.

Tracey: Actually she did call me and she said are we going to be on video, and I said well we’re not going to be recording it, but we will so that we can see them, and she was like shit, I have to not be naked. And I’m like, well, you can be naked if you wanna be, and you absolutely don’t need to put pants on.

[laughter]

Brian: I wouldn’t have judged. Look, we possibly would have joined in. it would have been fine.

Tracey: Well, as we started this off, I think it’s prime material for our new website that we should be going live with here soon.

Sharon: Only Grans!

Tracey: Only Grans. I think that’s so brilliant, I honestly think that’s so brilliant and it might be my retirement plan.

Brian: It possibly exists, to be honest. Only Grans. I’m not googling it because I’m on my work computer and it may set something off – actually I’ll do it on my phone while we chat. But I’m gonna through to you because I know we have completely sidetracked probably the first 10-15 minutes of our chat together.

Tracey: No, no, no. You guys are the main track, man. You’re the main track. So you realize when I look back it was almost exactly a year to the day when I was a guest on your show, I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist. I could not believe it was almost a year to the date. I was starting my Instagram account and I got this message from – I assume it was Troy, asking if I had been at Last Days Ministries and known Melody and Keith – so yeah, a year ago. A year ago! It seems like it’s been a full and busy year, for sure.

Brian: We knew it was a year because we celebrated it – Troy and I got together and had dinner and it was the one year anniversary that we had Tracey on the pod.

Sharon: [laughing]

Tracey: Oh, so nice!

Sharon: You’re so fucking full of shit.

[laughter]

Troy: But it was amazing, it was amazing really, seeing you guys those couple of times, and what you did for our pod as well. Tracey, your episode is still our number one downloaded episode ever. Remember, we’ve been going for years and years and years, and you came along and just went bang – number one. Sharon, your episode is not far behind as well. I think it’s the title – is Keith Green a cult leader? People go ooh, let’s listen to that one, whereas Keith Green Arranged my Teenage Marriage – yeah, maybe. But is he a cult leader? That’s more driving people to download. But yeah, it’s huge.

Sharon: You don’t need to worry, I’m not offended, I’m not hurt, I’m not wounded – much.

Tracey: Number One, baby! Sharon, number one, baby!!

Sharon: Number one baby.

[laughter]

Troy: Our story episodes where we tell our own stories – they rate the worst. People are like no – don’t want to hear from them.

Tracey: Oh really?

Troy: Yeah, which breaks my heart because I’m like, this is what I wanted to do. I wanted to tell my trauma stories.

Sharon: I jump around and listen to yours.

Troy: Oh, thank you.

Sharon: I skip over the others. I want to know you guys more, so at least one of your Only Grans is listening,

Tracey: Two, two Only Grans.

Brian: I just looked up Only Grans and it is a site, so it’s already taken. However, it’s a site that they say is wholesome, unlike Only Fans.

Tracey: I was going to say, I feel that we could do a deconstructed devil horns version and not have the wholesome portion of it,

Sharon: We could make it a z on the end – Only Granz.

Brian: Yes! Ah see, I like that. I think this is a go-er. If you need a manager, I’m your man.

[laughter]

Troy: I think that’s very 90s though, to put a z on the end of your word – Only Granz.

Sharon: But we’re old! Come on! Give us a break.

Troy: Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

Brian: In fairness, Sharon and Tracey are near their 90s.

Troy: Yeah, that’s right.

Sharon: What – say again?

Troy: Don’t say it again. Don’t say it again.

[laughter]

Brian: I’m not going to because I might get a hex put on me by you evil witches.

Troy: You’ll have to listen to it in post.

Tracey: Near their 90s. Hoo.

Sharon: Speaking of that, I’ve got a very important question to ask you guys. Who knows, maybe it’s even the most important of this session. I noticed in your new podcast graphic, why does only Brian have devil horns?

Tracey: Hmmmm.

Sharon: What’s up with that?

Troy: Do you want me to answer that Brian, because I did the graphic. Okay, so we used AI to create that graphic, so it wasn’t that we had some amazing designer do it for us.

Sharon: So basically you were taking money away from the artists, right? You were undermining artists in creative world.

Troy: No…no…I don’t think…no, it doesn’t do that, it actually creates it from nothing, you know? Don’t ruin it Sharon. So one of the things is I said give us both horns and haloes, and then when it created the image it only gave horns to Brian and not horns to me. But the image was really, really good, so I said oh Brian that can be because you always say you were a really shit Christian, and I was really full on. So when we were teenage fundamentalists I did have the halo. You had the halo but underneath it were the horns, so that’s the narrative.

Tracey: Ohhh.

Troy: But actually it was because the AI said I’m going to do it my way.

Brian: But the horns, in fairness – I think they were my doubt. My constant, gnawing doubt. I tried and tried to be a good Christian, I tried and tried to believe – I think I spent my whole time trying to believe, so I think it’s a good narrative and let’s stick to that – and I think the AI knows all.

[laughter]

Troy: The AI does know all.

Tracey: I think it’s a very, very good narrative. I think one of the main reasons we wanted to kick off our new season with your new season, is we’re very curious to hear what you’ve said that your season 5 (which is amazing, congratulations on that alone) – what type of shift are you expecting to take in season 5, and why? Or is that a spoiler alert for yours?

Brian: No real spoiler alert. We do have an episode coming out in a couple of days which will delve deeper into the whys and the hows and the whats, but I’ll let Troy speak as to the why, and I’ll speak as to the what. So there has been a shift – we feel like we’ve done four seasons, 90 odd episodes of focusing on the trauma, a lot of it, and also looking backwards. We thought it’s time to start looking forward. A lot of the chatter in our Facebook listener community is really about what do I do with going forward? How do I tackle A B and C? How am I parent after fundamentalism? How do I engage sexually after fundamentalism? All those sort of things, but also the curiosity of the things that really were taboo, and the things we were told were evil, as well, while we were a fundamentalist. So we want to explore a few of those things as well, we’re looking at things like certainty, and as a fundy, if there’s one things you’ve pegged against, it’s certainty. You know what’s going to happen next; you know what’s going to happen when you die. You know that God is in control. We want to explore the certainty of uncertainty, or the uncertainty of certainty. Both. Also looking at world religions – looking at Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism – all the isms. Islam.

Troy: Islamism.

Tracey: That’s what I was going to say – Islamism.

Brian: And Progressive Christianity as well,

Troy: I know. Fuck. But we have to make room for them – the ugly cousins.

[laughter]

Brian: We don’t want to give any airtime to fundamentalism, we never have wanted to, but we want to be fair in our approach.

Troy: Although we have a podcast called I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist, we don’t want to give any airtime to fundamentalism. Or at least fundamentalist versions of these other religions. That’s what we mean, we don’t want to open up the door and say here, try Orthodox Judaism. Hope you don’t like pork.

Brian: I mean, if you want to, go for it. It’s fine.

Sharon: Wait – you don’t really mean that, Brian.

Brian: Look, if people want to, go for it. I don’t mind. If people want to give it a crack, then give it a crack. I’m not going to judge. Yes I am. So we’re looking at that – we’re talking to people about those expressions and it’s exciting. We’ve already started recording, obviously, and we’ve got a few episodes lined up. It’s exploring those things. If we’re speaking to  progressive Hindu, for example, we’re asking how they express being a progressive Hindu, and it’s really interesting. Troy and I, in the start of these conversations, are just seeing the parallels between fundamentalist Christianity …

Troy: It’s full on, isn’t it.

Brian: Oh, it’s intense.

Troy: It’s fundamentalism is what it is.

Brian: People are wrestling with the totally…

Troy: They’re saying things like, what do we do with gay Hindus, what do we do – all this kind of stuff, and the role of women – and we’re like oh, this is going to be such a good series, because people are going to go oh, hold on, maybe this isn’t true after all. When you’re looking at the fact that these religions are radically different, yet they’re dealing with very much of the same things, especially repression and oppression, it shows you that fundamentalism is the demon here. It’s really good.

Sharon: I can’t wait.

Tracey: It’s amazing. So when you guys were deconstructing, I know one of the things that helped me on my path, one of my girls was taking figure skating which was right next to (at the time) Barnes & Noble – bookstores use to be a thing – and I went to the Barnes & Noble all the time during her skating and cleared the shelves on world religions, and world histories on Christianity and spiritualism, and all of that, and obviously was very surprized at what I found. Did you guys have much of a background as you deconstructed in some of these religions, or is it all learning afresh for you?

Troy: Some of them yes, some of them no. The one that was interesting for me was Judaism, because I thought as a Christian I knew everything about Judaism, because we have the Old Testament.

Tracey: Mmhmm.

Troy: And it turned out I didn’t know anything about Judaism. So some years ago, I actually did a course at a local synagogue, I went in and got into the whole Jewish thing for a number of years, I really immersed myself and at the end of it I said okay thank you, but that’s not for me. I really came to a huge understanding of their beliefs. I worked in a Jewish school for a little while; my wife still works in a Jewish school, and the Orthodox are quite off putting. I’m not going to apologize for saying that – they are quite off putting. It’s very similar to what we’re used to, but the progressive form is really cool. They’re really open – the progressive Christians are very much like the progressive Jews, it’s very similar, but the understanding of Judaism as a religion, and the fact that I had a complete misunderstanding of how they lived. I thought oh, they live by the law and all that kind of talk, and of course they don’t. It’s a very different life to what I was taught, so I think people are going to come out of that and go oh okay, I didn’t know that, or oh that’s interesting, but also the similarities and go okay, this is speaking something to me. That’s what happened to me. I don’t know if told you guys this story; I met an ex-Muslim fundamentalist in Singapore. I had said the line – and I’m not exaggerating, I’m not embellishing this story; I had said the line to people, as a backslidden Christian – I still believe in God, in Jesus, and the bible, but I don’t go to church. This woman, we were talking one day and she was letting me know she was a former Muslim fundamentalist and she said yeah, I still believe in Allah and Mohammed, and the Quaran, but I don’t go to mosque. I promise you that’s exactly what she said. I just looked at her, I was off my face high at the time, and I looked at her and thought – oh. Oohhh. And that was one of those moments that you couldn’t have scripted, you couldn’t have prepared it, but it was a real blow, death blow to my Christianity at that stage in my life because it was like – this is the same, only the names have been changed.

Sharon: So true.

Brian: Whereas, for me, I think the organized religion thing – it’s always been off putting. Even when I was in it I really struggled with it, and struggled to accept it. I didn’t fit that mold, so it’s not something I’ve searched for, or done research on since leaving. That’s it from me.

Tracey: But when you were in fundamentalism, I think our only teachings were how they were wrong – right? You got that big book on all the cults, so you got this cursory glance at all these religions, basically tied up in a big bow on why they’re missing the truth. I think that was like you were saying Troy, really stunning to me to start saying wow, how I believed that you believed was not at all. I ended up going into yoga for a little bit – probably not after my deconstructing, but during, as a pathway out. Part of that teacher certification, I had to read the Bhagavad Gita. At one point I’m like, oh no, I’ve just kind of landed myself – I always say we’re going to do an episode called First Cult, Second Cult because it seems like you usually end up in another cult, somehow. I think my yoga teacher was not expecting this from me, but I ended up writing a thesis on every passage in the Bhagavad Gita that was similar to a passage in the Bible, and it went on for pages. I made a grid and I compared the two, and it basically turned me off from that form of yoga. I’m not pursuing this for religious purposes.

Troy: That’s your second thesis, isn’t it Tracey, because you did another thesis. You’re a thesis writer.

Tracey: I’m a thesis writer, or a manifesto. I think it’s more of a manifesto.

Troy: Yeah, that’s what you called it, you called it a manifesto. I’m surprized that they had yoga in Kentucky. I thought it would have been banned. I thought there would have been legislation against it.

Tracey: You gotta get up into those hills, man – take your yoga mat up on those hills. Kentucky is a gorgeous State, by the way.

Sharon: But you don’t live there.

Tracey: I know, but…

Sharon: Why do you guys keep talking about Kentucky?

Tracey: I live on the border so I do have to go through Kentucky to get to the warehouse that’s a part of where I work and it’s a gorgeous drive. I just gotta throw it out there for you Kentuckians out there.

Troy: I think Molly from Cheers to Leaving – isn’t she in Kentucky? I think that’s where I’m getting it from.

Tracey: Yes. She is.

Sharon: She is. You know, I really am fascinated to hear the conversations that you’re going to share with us with all these folks who have moved into kind of the progressive form of their belief system. The interesting thing to me – I tend to be a fairly extreme person, so…

Tracey: What? What??

Sharon: I can swing from one side of the pendulum to the other, pretty hard, pretty fast, and there’s a part of me in walking away from fundamental and Evangelical Christianity that’s like, oh man. All religion is just bullshit. None of it’s worth it. I dabbled for a few seconds in Buddhism and I was like nah, this is all just the same shit. And I have struggled – what are you offering? Oh you’ve got a book? Look behind me – that’s my Buddha boy.

Troy: Yep.

Tracey: Within reaching distance.

Sharon: Oh look at that – all of us! There was this wonderful book…

Tracey: Wait – Brian, where’s your idol?

[laughing]

Troy: Coffee. Coffee.

Sharon: There was a great book called The Parallel Sayings of Jedas and … The Parallel Sayings of Jesus and…

Tracey: Jedas? Jedas?

Sharon: Jesus and Buddha.

Troy: Jedas? He lives in Kentucky.

Tracey: I like Jedas.

Troy: You’re not fooling me. [using a fake cowboy accent] Jedas? Jedas would you get back here with your sisters?

Tracey: That’s what they say in Kentucky, Troy. That’s the number one theme in Kentucky. Jedas!!

Sharon: You guys are getting me off track!

Troy: Jedus and Jemima!

Sharon: I’m trying to say something serious and meaningful here.

Tracey: Of course, of course.

Troy: Oh, sorry.

Tracey: But we’re grieving the Holy Spirit. We’re grieving the Holy Spirit. Go, go, go.

Troy: Yeah, with a tiny little blue cowboy hat on. Go ahead.

Sharon: A good cowboy hat and no pants, but you know, hey. So, the progressive thing – I struggled, and I’ll say I sometimes still struggle with this idea of why do you guys even bother? You’re just trying to make it – what, Jesus-lite? Or Islam-lite? In order to be in any way progressive or tolerant or truly loving of other humans, you basically have to abandon the foundation of virtually everything in your “sacred text”. So now you just have to try to explain away, or ignore, or reinterpret, so why even bother? That was my pendulum swing all the way to that side.

Troy: I think that’s fair enough, Sharon.

Sharon: Yeah, but I do see that for many people, there is value. I think some of it is sense of community, some of it is sense of looking to something external for the moral compass rather than believing or trusting that it could be exclusively within you. So I’m having to learn tolerance in that way.

Tracey: Tolerance.

[laughing]

Sharon: Acceptance. I gotta start with tolerance, alright? I’m just being honest with one of my struggles.

Brian: Yeah.

Troy: I think it’s fair enough, Sharon. I really do. I went through a similar time where I wanted nothing to do with any other religion or religious things, and I came across the book Religion for Atheists by Alain de Botton, I don’t know if you’ve ever read that book, and he looks at the value of religion – he’s an atheist, and he looks at the value of I think it’s Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism, as – like you were saying. Helping people to be reminded of morality and ethics, and he draws out the value of this. I found that a lot of the things that missed from Christianity and my time as a fundamentalist, I could still take some of those things on board without committing to a community or anything like that. So I think there is some value to it, but I don’t commit to any one thing. I’m in a place now where I think it’s quite probably and possibly there is no afterlife and all those kinds of things as well, but I’m open to the fact that I could be wrong about that, which is very different to how I was before. I was very sure, whereas now I’ve learned. I’ve learned my lesson. But the other thing I think, the only reason why we’re doing it is – it’s going to sound like we’re trying to patronize people who listen to our podcast, and I hope it doesn’t sound that way – there’s a lot to learn here, that we can actually reflect on our own experience as well. We made it clear to people in our first episode – just because we open the box and look inside, doesn’t mean we’re saying this is good.

Tracey: Okay.

Sharon: Mmhmm.

Troy: Doesn’t mean we’re saying this is right, and doesn’t mean we’re saying it’s wrong either. But we’re gonna have a look.

Tracey: Curious, yeah.

Troy: And these things we had definite answers about, we’re gonna try and explore, and see if we still have definite answers.

Tracey: I think that’s fantastic.

Sharon: That’s great. I can’t wait. Tracey and I…

Brian: Jack was in the box. Jack was in there, so we let him out.

Tracey: Is that another KFC/McDonalds jack in the box?

Brian: It is.

Sharon: Do you guys have Jack in the Box down there? The fast food place Jack in the Box?

Brian: No. actually we don’t have Jack in the Box. We have jack-in-the-boxes.

Sharon: Jack-in-the-boxes toys. No, I’m talking about…

Troy: We only recently got Carls Jnr. Carls Jnr is here now – we’ve got that.

Sharon: Oh those are shit. Those burgers are shit. So Jack in the Box has one thing on their menu. It’s called, or it used to be called the Monster Taco, and it is so bad that it is unbelievably fantastic. They take this corn tortilla and they put a schmear of – I don’t know, can you call it meat? It looks like it might be cat food pate inside it, folded up, put the whole thing in deep fat frying, fry the whole thing, comes out, it’s all greasy, they put a slice of American cheese in it and some little shreds of lettuce and salsa and oh my god. I can’t say it’s quite as good as the best orgasm you ever had, but it’s pretty damn close. Just saying.

Brian: Wow.

Troy: Well, it is a monster taco, after all.

Tracey: You had me at schmear.

[laughing]

Brian: You’ve made it really appealing with that smear of cat food.

Sharon: Yeah I know, it’s really good! Any time we’re travelling, if there’s a Jack in the Box, I tell Dave we gotta go. We gotta go drive through. I think it’s cos when I was in high school and college, that was the go to place after classes.

Tracey: So it has nostalgia for you. But I love what you guys said about opening the box, because that is something we weren’t allowed to do as fundamentalists, right? You weren’t allowed to explore, you weren’t allowed to ask a lot of questions and dig in deep, it was that fear that was going to come upon you, so I think that’s great. One of the things that has come up in our community Facebook as well, and I don’t know if you guys are going to tackle it, or your thoughts on it, is death. How do you bring comfort to people who have lost a significant loved one in their life, or facing their own mortality? There’s not a lot of conversations on that, and I find myself – all of the things that were so easy to say to people in your Christian fundamentalism, those are not there. So I don’t know what you guys are thinking about that.

Brian: We are. We are doing a little episode on death, and actually near death experiences as well. We’ve got an expert coming to speak about that, to speak about the process of death and also some of the beliefs around death as well. I know that is one really big thing that people struggle with; what’s next? Over time – it’s taken me a long time to get there – I’m comfortable in the fact that for me, there’s nothing else. That’s it. We die; we return to dirt, and it’s okay, and life just keeps recycling. I don’t believe in an afterlife anymore. I’m open to the fact that I could be proven wrong, and I guess I’ll find out in probably 20-30 years, but the reality is – who knows? Who knows. But for me, I see no pointers in that direction.

Troy: Whereas I’m hopeful, to be honest. I was – I went through this hardcore atheist stage, and I don’t say that patronizing people who have been through that, because I may go into that again. But I’m hopeful. Some of the stuff I’ve been listening to and reading about near death experiences and things like that – it’s quite compelling. I realize it could totally – even probably is just my emotional need, all that kind of stuff. I’m not for a minute saying this is the new answer or anything, so please don’t cancel I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist, but I’m hopeful that there is something, but I’m also aware that there’s probably not. So let’s open the box and have a look.

Tracey: Yeah, one of my ideas for a true business, if my Fan Grans doesn’t work out, is redoing the whole funeral parlour death experience. I know in the United States it’s bad, and a couple of years ago a family member and I had to into this funeral parlour home – if you weren’t depressed before you walked in there, you were depressed in the midst of that. I was like, what happened to nature, and finding inspiration in the things that we have in life, that they put these old statues and these old carpets, and they try to make it look like an old church with old wallpaper – it’s just bad. So I’m like, I think we need to redefine death and do it differently. I’ll let you know if I open up a chain of – they wouldn’t be called funeral parlours because even that name just sounds like what they are.

Troy: Would you have monster tacos?

[laughing]

Tracey: Yes.

Troy: That should be the food at Sharon’s wake, by the way. You gotta have monster tacos.

Tracey: Should be totally the food.

Sharon: Oh, monster tacos and margueritas. For sure.

Troy: So, we’ve had trouble getting someone to come on and talk about death, haven’t we? To actually talk about the process of dying. We’ve had trouble finding someone that’s willing to come on and talk to us. That’s been a challenge, but we’ll get there.

Sharon: It’s interesting; my husband Dave just forwarded me – I haven’t opened it and looked at it yet – but a news article he saw about something going on in the States now, called Death Doulas. Have you heard of that?

Tracey: Ohh.

Sharon: Doula.

Brian: I know a birth doula.

Sharon: Yeah. One of our daughters in law had a baby a year ago and they had a birth doula, but this was referring to a death doula. I’m gonna read it. I’ll find it and I’ll send it to you guys.

Troy: I think Rachel and Molly did an episode with a death doula.

Tracey: We’ll have to look that up, and we’ll put it in our show notes when we find it. That’s very interesting. The other question I have on that as far as the religions, but witchcraft. That’s something that everyone will know that Dawn Green came on our episode and kind of blew up our Last Days alumni page.

Sharon: We love you Dawn! We love you Dawn!

Tracey: We do love you Dawn! And so brave to come out of what we’ve come out of and talk about having a practice that’s very different than what everybody thinks it is, right. But I know that I tend to be a mystic. I’m a mystic, I was a Christian mystic, I tend to like the mystical things – I think I’m like you Troy. I’m not convinced there’s not anything, but I do – even in gardening, this whole cycle of life and just regeneration and that whole principle that’s everywhere, so I don’t know if you guys are going to cover witchcraft?

Sharon: Like Wiccan. You’re talking about wiccan witchcraft.

Troy: I don’t think we will, because witches burn in hell. So I don’t think we should do one on that.

[laughter]

Troy: We didn’t think about that, did we Brian?

Brian: We didn’t. It’s not on the agenda yet, but we may. I think that could be good. There’s plenty out there. There’s plenty out there – I mean, look at you two.

[laughter]

Troy: We could get Daniel Radcliffe to come along and talk about it.

Tracey: You could totally get Daniel Radcliffe.

Troy: He knows all about it.

Tracey: But it truly is one of those things that there’s so many stereotypes about people that thing that, right, but there is a spiritual practice that gets you back to nature, and it’s not quite Wiccan, and it’s not quite witchcraft; I think they’re saying it’s one of the more growing spiritual practices out there. So just throwing it out there.

Sharon: It’s very nature based. That’s something I didn’t understand either. It really is saying we’re looking at one with nature to understand that we’re just part of nature. We’ve artificially removed ourselves from it, in our species, in the last 8-10,000 years; before that we were just another animal.

Tracey: Yeah.

Brian: I used to live in the hills in the city we live in, and up there there’s a lot of self-professed witches and warlocks, and all that that live there. Being amongst that community – they are just normal people. Most of it is – it’s a paganism, it’s worship of the earth and nature. It demystifies it by knowing the people. Some of them (not gonna lie) are a bit strange. But there’s also strange people throughout every aspect of my life.

Tracey: Everywhere.

Brian: I think they’re just generally strange people.

Tracey: Even in the podcast world there’s strange people.

Troy: I know, there’s like, grandmas in clothes baskets and all kinds of shit going on in the podcast world.

Sharon: Brian, you used the word worship – they’re out there worshipping nature. Can I pivot to another topic to ask you guys about?

Brian: You can, but we can’t guarantee we’ll answer it straight – I mean…

Troy: That’s right. We may talk about Kentucky.

Tracey: I was going to say, he’s from the hills – Brian did you say you were from the hills?

Brian: The he-ills. I aren’t from them but I lived in the hills for a while, yes.

Tracey: Well you would feel very at home in Kentucky. That’s all I’m going to say.

Troy: That’s where you were handling the rattle snakes weren’t you, Brian?

Brian: I’m only here for the ark.

Sharon: No one here lives in Kentucky! Why are we still talking about Kentucky?

Brian: Because Tracey’s 45 minutes from Kentucky, and Molly lives in Kentucky.

Sharon: Yes, she does. Hi Molly.

Troy: And the Colonel came from Kentucky.

Sharon: Oh god.

[laughter]

Brian: And Ken Ham. Hello.

Sharon: And Ken Ham.

Tracey: And you wanted to do a special trip to the Creation Museum and the Ark, so that’s why we’re talking about it.

Troy: In Ken-tuck-y.

Sharon: I do, I do, but only if our little bros will do it with us. We need to wait and do it with them.

Tracey: I think an episode of Bros and Hos would be amazing,

[laughter]

Troy: Isn’t that what this is?

Brian: This is what this should be called.

Tracey: That is so what this should be called.

Sharon: AKA Bros and Hos. Alright, I’m putting it on there. That’s what it’s gonna be. Alright, back to my attempt at a serious – well no, it’s not serious. So, worship. I’ve done a little bit of thinking of what that whole worship music and experience was for us when we were all deep, deep in the fundy side of things. Of course, for all of us Keith Green’s music had a big, big draw. Just that whole power of music to touch a part of our inner self in a way that nothing else really does, and wondering how much of it was organic and genuine early on – in the 70s with the guitar, singing Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God, versus what it morphed into as a perhaps intentional tool for manipulation, thinking of how you’re going to order the songs in a service, and kind of back to – any and all of that that you guys want to comment on. I’m interested in your perspectives.

Brian: I think I’m cynical; however I’d probably cut them a little bit of slack, in that I’m not sure how intentional the move was towards making it manipulative. However, I do think that’s where it is now. I think people try new things; in the times when I led worship and Troy did the same, (he a lot more successfully because his voice is better), but you could move people into a place by intentionally manipulating it – and sometimes you were intentional in thinking that. However, I do think that you would experiment with different things, it would take people to different places, and you would employ those methods. And it evolved, it evolved for churches until it hit – now it’s a formula. You have large churches like Hillsong and other mega churches where it’s a formula you must employ because you know that you can just get people straight there. For me, music has always been an incredibly important part of my life. Way before I converted to Christianity, music was something that took me to another place. I related to it; it helped me navigate stories and themes of my life, so I always loved music. It was always going to be a powerful hook for me – and even to this point now, I get up in the morning and hey Google, ask it to play some music. So music still is a place that takes me somewhere else, and it’s (for lack of a better word) a spiritual experience. When I’m seeing live music, I really connect, and I really feel something and feel like I’m taken to another place. I feel like they’ve harnessed that really well in megachurches, because they bring that experience, which they know is going to connect people, and they contemporise it with the lyrics. Explore the lyrics – most of them are very me-centric. It’s pointing back to you, it’s not actually talking about worshipping a God, or praising a God, it’s talking about I am this, I am that. So that’s where I think it’s become a very different thing from the original intent, which was maybe a little bit more pure back then. I don’t know – I’m cutting them some slack, but in short, I always found music powerful and I think it is used as a tool. Troy.

Troy: Brian, are you saying that if the modern worship scene was a little bit more Christ-centric, you’d be okay with it?

Brian: Yeah definitely. I’d be back there in a heartbeat.

[laughing]

Troy: Yeah that’s right, cos that’s what it needs.

Tracey: So before you start Troy, Brian – were you a head worship leader, as far as the one who would be speaking and getting everybody in the spirit?

Brian: Only in a youth group setting. Not in a large church sort of setting. I did have one amazing moment where I was at a camp, there was a couple of hundred kids, we were really getting into worship, real excited, jumped on a chair and then fell into the crowd off the chair. That was a beautiful thing.

Tracey: That was your Christian moshing moment.

Brian: Oooh yeah.

Sharon: Troy?

Troy: Fine.

Tracey: Sorry to cut you off, Troy.

Troy: No, it’s FINE. I was thinking about this topic a couple of days ago, getting ready to talk with you guys. One of the things is talking about Keith Green, and the influence he had, and I think we were primed by just general society for someone like Keith to come along. I was so into Van Halen and so into The Police, and so into all these different bands – Led Zeppelin and Rush, and we would sit there and close your eyes and listen to the music, cos a lot of those albums had stories, they’d be thematic albums, and I was totally doing that with my non-Christian music, before I became a Christian. I think one of the things when Keith’s music came along – I already knew how to do that. I already knew how to lie down and listen to the music, or to listen to the words and learn all the words, and all the things that you do. I think in that sense it was utilizing something from a societal perspective that was already there, having these rock and roll idols, and all of a sudden we have our Christian rock and roll idols. I know that’s not news, but we all realize that’s exactly what was happening. But I was thinking – and I want to throw this back to you guys as well – because we didn’t have the real Keith. We only had his music. You think about that right – we didn’t see the bouncing guy, we didn’t have the arranged marriages, we didn’t have any of that. All we had was Oh Lord our Lord How Majestic is Thy Name in all the Earth and all that kind of stuff, and You Wanna Go Back to Egypt, and yeah my church is shit! Keith if we were with you, you’d tell us! All that kind of stuff. And I just wonder how different the experience is – I mean, I know it’s going to be radically different, but I just wonder how different the experience was for you guys to actually – you could break out of that at times and just see the real Keith. Was he like, a worship leader? Like we would have in our church? Or was he still that super-idol, because to us he was more than human. I think that’s fair to say, hey Brian, and it wasn’t just the book. It was the music as well.

Tracey: Yeah, the music. I’m gonna jump in and say mine, and Sharon probably has a lot on this as well. I personally – I think when Keith was really himself, expressing his heart, he was at his best. Going back and pulling some of his music before he was a Christian – so similar, right. Still that same kind of story, passion, he’s just really pouring it out, and I think that resonates, whatever kind of musician you are. I saw Youth With A Mission come in and I went on tour, a part of my second term was we went on tour, it was after we read Charles Finney and we were supposed to be having – what were they called? These Enquirers meetings, and I could feel from Keith that pressure and Brian, to your point of now it’s like a formula, it’s almost like now he approached it of I have to achieve this result. I don’t think he was ever as good when he was in that frame of mind of now I’m on here, I am now a preacher that needs to have results like Charles Finney, if it proves that I have the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s where I think there are more of his contrived songs, and his songs that to this day, don’t do much for me. But when he was really himself, and bare-hearted, I think he was amazing and we loved it when he led worship. That was a shorter time period, I think Sharon will probably have a lot more color to that.

Sharon: Well, right – I first met Keith as Keith. He played a couple songs on the piano in our living room, the night he first stayed at our house, but I remember he was playing one called Pardon Me, which was a parody about Richard Nixon and the whole Watergate impeachment thing going on. And he probably played something Christian-y. But then he was talking, and he was bopping around, and the intensity and everything else. I knew Keith for a couple of years before I knew his music, before there was an album, and before there were tours. So that is the lens through which I could see his music, was having known him already. When I visited in 19 – I guess it was 79, when I was 17 and dropped out of university and went to the California commune – community – which was multiple houses in a suburb of Southern California. Worship was all of us sitting around crammed into a living room, sitting cross legged on the floor, Keith sitting on the floor as well, with a guitar, playing. And us singing and praying. It was this sincere, we’re trying to connect with the divine – not the divine Keith, but the divine Jesus. There was a lot of – I mean, I can look at it now and see the condemnation we were all under, in the sense that we were never going to be good enough. Our hearts are black, and we are to weep at the feet of Jesus – there was a whole lot of shit going on like that, but there was a sincerity that had nothing to do with a commercial endeavour of an album or a concert hall, and the songs – very rarely would he play one of his own worship songs.

Tracey: Yeah.

Sharon: I’m trying to remember. Sometimes he’d play them, but usually it was other stuff he was playing.

Tracey: It was other stuff, yeah.

Sharon: Do you remember that, Tracey?

Tracey: Mmhmm.

Sharon: Yeah. And it would normally be he’s teaching a bible study too. We’d have worship time and then a bible study.

Brian: I think it’s often the way though – maybe I’m being too gracious, but when things start off grassroots and fairly raw, and then they start to get a bit more of a following, you start to see a bit more polish, and then it gets a bit more popular, and it gets more polished and they go – oh, as we get more polished, we get more popular. We’ll polish a little bit more. So I think you see that in so many aspects of life. I imagine that the temptation to keep polishing to a point where it is so ultra-professional – which again, is what you see in the megachurches now. I mean, these guys are just switched on. They know which buttons to push to get you to raise your hands at certain times, and manipulate the hell out of you, and where to place the altar call and the offering, and all that sort of stuff. So it just gets more and more and more polished to a point where it’s so successful as a formula, and again it’s just like lift and shift, chuck it in the next church and you’ve got one ready to go. Just add people.

Tracey: I think that’s where Keith is different in that, in that he did not want to be so polished. His struggle that I watched him was he really wanted to be anointed.

Sharon: Right.

Tracey: At that point he was a big follower of Charles Finney, so he had an idea of what that looked like, so I could see him under that pressure. I think any time we’re under pressure, you cease to be the genuine you that really is the kind of gift, and just this mouthpiece of this prophetic anointing to get the results that Finney got.

Sharon: And what that would look like for Keith would be 100s or 1000s of people coming forward, falling prostrate on their faces, weeping and weeping. That would be the measure of whether or not the Holy Spirit was working. Do you think so Tracey?

Tracey: Oh yeah, I mean, after Winkie Pratney had done that tour with all of us, and Keith beat himself up because he didn’t get those results. I think…

Sharon: But then it was us! What sin did we have in our hearts that it didn’t happen.

Tracey: Exactly. But it was the whole community – why are we holding sin in our hearts that’s not getting this results. I think that’s where he began to get bolder in being able to call out sin, because that’s kind of how the results happened with Charles Finney. Then when you look back – if I listen to Songs for the Shepherd or there’s certain songs that I still – the music arrangement, the cry of the heart, I’m moved by those. Then there’s those other songs that literally just the shame and the guilt and calling out the sin, and to this day it’s like, those are shit. But I think it was generally a reflection of what he believed.

Troy: The Prodigal Son Suite was the hook for me into Keith’s music. It still is – it’s a great piece of music, it tells an archetypical of story, you don’t have to get all religious to see the value in it, but what I was going to say before is I think, if I was listening to this podcast and I was still a Christian (and let’s face it, they’re not listening) – but if I was, I would be thinking yeah, that’s right ladies. We have to get back. It’s like a reformation, like a revival. We have to get back to the heart of it all. No more of this super polished stuff and everything, and this is what Keith was about too, and this was what we were about at one stage – finding that pure, more right version of Christianity because that’s when it was all right and good. But I don’t think so.

Sharon: No.

Troy: I think it was rotten from the core.

Sharon: You are right. You are right, Troy. It was rotten from the beginning.

Troy: Yeah, and it’s all dressed up in this nice stuff and these nice feelings, and this ideology and the zeal and all the kinds of things that make a good cult, right? I heard Hillsong people saying, and no one outside gets it – meaning people that have left. No one outside gets it – it was more than just all the money and the music and everything. What they’re really talking about is what made it a good cult. And they miss that, that community and all the things that were going on, and I think yeah, it is. It’s rotten from the core. It all needs to be pulled down and burnt to the ground – metaphorically. So when we think about coming back to the original question that you threw about the music and everything, I think it’s the church tapping into something that is already there. Taylor Swift released her concert tickets here, the country went insane.

Tracey: Insane.

Troy: Right? Australia. It was news items, I was sitting in business meetings and I’d walk behind people and they’ve got the website open trying to get tickets for – usually their teenage daughters. It was just absolutely insane. That’s the power of music, that’s the power of that image, all that kind of thing, and I think that’s what Keith tapped into. But for me, I wonder why did Keith do that but Petra didn’t, DC Talk didn’t – don’t get me wrong, they had an influence, but no one seemed to draw me in the way that Keith Green did. Maybe it was because of that zealot aspect, I don’t know, but these other Christian artists – you never hear someone saying Rebecca St James started a commune. No one says that stuff, right? It was something different about what you guys were in.

Sharon: Keith had a need, I think. He had a need to be someone. He had the need to have an audience. If he hadn’t become a Christian it would have been a different kind. He was trying to do it in the secular world – he was driven to want a following and to figure out what brought that following. I don’t know that it was an intentional, conscious thing, but that’s who he was. That’s who he was and what he did. What you just said about Taylor Swift and the fact that Keith was able to tap into it – okay, so Taylor Swift has tapped in in a way that others in her generation haven’t. She’s taken it to another level, like Keith took it to another level. That has something to do with who that person is individually, it has nothing to do with whether or not they have an “anointing” of God, in my opinion. But I remember in probably the mid-90s, going up to – I don’t remember if we went up to Pennsylvania or somewhere, but we went to a U2 concert, and I was still in my I’m trying to be a committed Christian. I did love the music of U2. I remember being in this big outdoor stadium. It was their PopMart tour and it’s night time, and they played the song In The Name of Love. When the chorus is going, everyone in that stadium, tens of thousands of people, are on their feet with their hands in the air, some with lighters – I don’t know if we had cell phones back then, that’s how old it was, but they’re singing, and then the band stops and it’s a Capella, and it’s tens of thousands of people singing the chorus, In The Name of Love. I remember feeling like, this is worship. This is worship, and I was confused because it didn’t feel bad, but my brain’s trying to say, who are they worshipping? Are they worshipping U2, is this false, is this counterfeit, is this an abomination to God? But what I felt in my emotions and my brain was the same sense of connection and like, a different dimension of – I don’t know, euphoria is too strong a word, but it’s just this opening up.

Tracey: Transcendence. Like a transcendence.

Sharon: Yeah, like a transcendence. Exactly. I felt that, and it was communal, with all these other people because we’re all focused in singing the same thing. I think that that is a human experience and has nothing to do with a religion or this or that, but if you experience that transcendence and that communal feeling, and someone at the same time is telling you it’s because of this invisible God, and you should believe, your experience is seen through that belief that’s being imposed on you. That’s my theory about some of the power of music in Christian circles.

Troy: But there’s this one person, and that’s what I think that Keith had that was a little bit difference. Because at least from the outside with his music, and we didn’t live on the commune, but the way he was able to use his music to draw you in – but we also looked to him. Don’t get me wrong, we weren’t worshipping him. It was all about him leading us to Jesus and all that kind of stuff. I think there’s a couple of people from the secular world – Michael Jackson is one, there’s a kind of devotion that people had to him (and still do). The closest person I saw in my experience of Christianity to the way that people were drawn in, devoted to Keith, was maybe Carmen. I think a lot of people connected to Carmen in that way, at least in our part of the world they did. There was just something about Keith that he – I don’t know. It was more than just using the music. It was also…yeah, there was something about him.

Tracey: Yeah, no, I know what you’re saying. Even Sharon, when you were saying a following – all musicians usually want that, right? They want to be followed, they want to be popular.

Sharon: Right.

Tracey: I don’t know that we have a great answer but I do think that there was something about Keith and his intensity when he was really expressing his heart, that is different than a lot of experiences with other musicians. Even now in Christendom you’ll hear the anointing of Keith Green – there’s an acknowledgement in a lot of Chrisitan circles that they see it as that anointing, that anointing doesn’t come along all the time. And yet to all of your points, when you can point to secular artists, it also happens in the secular sphere, doesn’t come around. Freddy Mercury, that’s another one for me. It’s like, what did Freddy Mercury have that not everybody had?

Troy: Charisma.

Sharon: Charisma.

Tracey: What was that?

Troy: Charisma. This is it, it’s charisma. Whether it’s Michael Jackson, Keith Green, Freddie Mercury, Taylor Swift, Beyonce – there’s this charisma that some people have. They just are able to channel that or market it – that’s what Keith did. If it hadn’t been for his music, Keith would have been a little cult leader in Lindale Texas, and that would have been the end of the story. There wouldn’t have been a podcast, so thank God for Keith.

[laughter]

Troy: But it’s true! He had this charisma and he used media, and it was very modern media of the day, to get that out there, and we all got drawn in. But I do want to come back to what I said before; you guys had this experience of the real person, and I think you guys have a very different experience of Keith Green than we did, but the fact that you can tell the humanity I think is really, really powerful, and I don’t use that word flippantly. I think the fact that you guys are out there saying okay, let’s set the story straight – no, here’s what he did, he possibly killed everyone in a plane, let’s look at Melody’s story and listen to her and see how he pushed her around. I was listening to your first episode, because you were kind enough to give it to us in advance. And it’s a great episode.

Sharon: Thank you, I did want to ask you about that in a minute, so if you want to go for it now, do it.

Troy: Yeah, you were talking about Keith being young and getting discovered, so he had a taste of the adoration then had it all taken away from him as a teenager, and that really – you know, impressionable years and all that. So I totally get that. And I think all of us that read No Compromise, if you had half a brain, even back in church, were going – that, that and that – but then you just sort of pushed it out and go nah, it’s Keith, and you run with it. And then later on when you’re able to actually deconstruct and really look at it, you go ah yes he was this, he was that. So let’s talk about that episode and that interview, because there was a lot of things in that interview, and your reflection on that interview that I think really show Keith Green and Melody Green and Last Days Ministries for what it was.

Sharon: Mmm.

Brian: It was a really great episode. I agree with Troy, it’s tapping into that humanity. I do think that for people to be so successful in these spaces – absolutely it’s about charisma, but you’ve gotta be able to see yourself in that person, to a degree as well. I think the vulnerability of people letting you in to a certain degree – even though Keith a lot of the time was quite self-righteous and blamey, you could see yourself in him. You see that with a lot of successful people that have a following, whether it’s in Christendom or outside. Some people absolutely they follow you because they want to be you…

Troy: Cos you’re HOT.

Brian: Actually, a little bit of trivia – I love trivia. So Taylor Swift, right, her upcoming tour. My daughter lives in Queensland in Australia, she’s flying to Sydney to see Taylor Swift. This has happened every place she’s had a concert, the whole city is booked out, you cannot get accommodation. The 2000 Olympics in Australia generated about 5 billion dollars for the economy. This is people coming from across the globe – insane, huge thing. Taylor Swift is going to generate 1.2 billion dollars for the Australian economy through the tour. So this is – that’s popularity. That’s something Keith didn’t do. Maybe if Keith was round he would pack stadiums – probably not. But the reality is I think people have to identify, and that’s where Keith did it well. That attraction was there because people could see he was a bit of a normal guy. That’s the bit that we saw – Troy and I reading the book was, this was just another guy chasing the heart of God, and we could be that guy too. I think he was deified to a certain degree too, because of his death, and that’s when we really hooked onto it too. I remember as an early Christian, 89-90 – Keith’s been dead seven or eight years. I read No Compromise – I read that before I read the bible in its completion, and I remember having a conversation with one of my brothers saying oh my God, why did God take Keith? It was all about Keith being the central character in the narrative, why did he take him, or maybe he needed him up there – all that sort of stuff that you’re thinking about. And you wouldn’t think that about anybody else – why did God take them? It was a very different sort of connection and a very different person, but let’s go to Melody, and your episode.

Tracey: So first of all, I love still to this day many of Keith’s songs. You’re right, there was definitely that double-edged sword – there was a sincerity about him that was real, he struggled, he shared that. I despised the book No Compromise from day one, because we lived it and there was so much that was colored in such a way to perpetuate that deity aspect. And Keith is not responsible for the book No Compromise.

Brian: It does often happen – you think of funerals that you go to that you know that person deeply. It’s pretty rare that you would get up at a funeral and go uh, you know, Tony – he was a bit of a fucker, actually.

[laughter]

Troy: My friend did that. His father used to beat him, and he got up at the funeral and just ripped into his dad. But even then knowing that story, I was like oh that’s a bit harsh. You know what I mean? I thought it was the wrong thing to do, but who’s to say, right? But it does happen.

Brian: Oh yeah. That’s what happens though, people die and you want to remember the good stuff, you want to honor them, so any of the bad stuff gets erased from history. Except in the case of Troy’s friend. But most of the time I’ve been to too many funerals and it’s only the good stories. It’s the funny, the heartening, the connecting stories.

Tracey: It’s true.

Brian: But you know, some of those people were fuckers.

Troy: And I think that coming back to that interview with Melody, that cemented her, you guys talked about the chains coming out from Keith’s grave. I think if she turned around and said Keith probably did this with his – what I think is ADHD, by the way, unapologetic, I think it’s totally ADHD, because I’ve got someone close to me and I’ve done a lot of reading on it, I’m not an expert but I think Keith had ADHD. What you call the bounce is hyperactivity and all that kind of stuff – please, if you really want to see did Keith have ADHD, go have a look at some of the symptoms. But I think when she thinks about the fact – and she even said in the book, why were that many people in the plane? And you guys were talking about her saying calling out to Keith what do you want to call the baby, all this sort of stuff, as if she knew something was coming. I think Melody, when that happened, she was cemented in, because it’s too great – especially after all this time – it’s too great a confrontation is maybe the word I’m looking for, to say perhaps my husband was a cult leader, did all these things, killed the kids, etcetera. All that together. I think it’s just too much for her, and I don’t think she ever will come to the point. He stole her whole life, and even from death, stole her whole life. She’s had to tell this story, and YWAM swept in and – I daresay, maybe not, but I daresay she’s got so much regret about what’s happened even with you guys and people like you. It’s just a schmozzle, and she said this ruined my life. I think that’s where she’s at, and I think she’s gonna die. Tracey – Sharon and Brian don’t believe this, but if she comes back in the next life, she can start again.

[laughter]

Troy: But for now, this is done for her, and I don’t think you’re gonna see her change. I just don’t think it’s going to happen. I don’t say that harshly; I say that full of compassion. I think that woman has been destroyed.

Tracey: Right. Full of compassion because it’s so hard. Yeah.

Brian: I think she’s enjoyed the ride a bit, let’s be honest. I mean, she might have got swept up in it, but I think she’s capitalized on it, and you can’t look past the memorial concerts and things like that. Maybe part of it was in her grief she was taken advantage of and was able to look past that a bit, maybe I’m a bit more cynical around that, I think people do take advantage of things in their grief, or they are taken advantage of, but it’s continued a hell of a long time past that, so…

Tracey: A helluva long time!

Brian: Yes, 40-odd years.

Troy: Maybe you’re right in that. Because you and Sharon are hard-hearted, and Tracey and I are more soft.

Sharon: That’s right. I’m going to agree.

Troy: That’s what’s going on here, and we’re the better people, Trace, we’re the better people.

Sharon: Your names start with Tr, Brian and I end with n…

Troy: Start with Sh…

Sharon: What was that? I missed that.

Troy: You said, our names start with Tr and Brian and I start with Sh – no.

Brian: Well, I’m often called a shithead.

[laughter]

Sharon: No. Brian and I end with n. We end with n. Brian gets the devil horns, I usually get the devil horns, so yeah. I’m gonna talk about the thing with Melody but why is it Troy and Brian, Tracey and Sharon – how come you two go first and we’re second?

Tracey: Cos we’re the better people, right Troy?

Troy: That’s right, because we lead with our heart and you guys lead with your hard hearts.

Sharon: [laughing] Out hard hearts.

Brian: We just keep it real. We keep people accountable, we’re happy to be last – last shall be first, first shall be last, so essentially Sharon, you and I are first.

Sharon: Alright!

Troy: But seriously though, you guys are probably right. I get that.

Sharon: What’s probably right.

Troy: That you’re right about Melody, that she’s enjoyed the ride and she’s gone on this for too long – maybe that’s part of the mix too, it’s just too late.

Tracey: It’s too hard, yeah.

Troy: It’s too late to turn around now. I don’t know.

Sharon: The thing is…

Tracey: I think she’s definitely enjoyed the ride, until she didn’t. When you’re in those communities like IHOP Kansas City, and Last Days, you have a servant – community. I was going to say class, a servant class. And I think she definitely benefitted from a servant class being around.

Sharon: Slaves. They’re basically slaves.

Tracey: Yes. And I think when she’s been away from that, some of this has hit her much harder, because she’s had to do other thing for herself that she didn’t have to do. So that’s my hardness of heart.

Troy: Do you know what’s going to be really interesting, when those kids come out and tell their stories. Her daughters.

Tracey: Yeah.

Troy: That’s going to be fascinating.

Sharon: If.

Troy: Mm. It’ll be a good one though.

Sharon: So, I think that Tracey and Troy, they have a softer compassion. I don’t think that Brian and I are without compassion for Melody, and way more than one thing can be true at the same time. When we were (the four of us) four-way messaging I was thinking about this, I was recognizing that, that yeah I could hear from Tracey and Troy a really soft compassion for Melody and that is a beautiful thing. I said in that message that yes, of course I see how Keith controlled and abused her. And yes, I absolutely see how YWAM manipulated her and used her, but I also saw in person, first hand, in private, her character, her behavior. Some really significant self-centeredness, a coldness to the feelings of others, and some – what can only be described as greed and ego. That was there.

Tracey: And some cruelty. I’ve heard people describe her with cruelty.

Sharon: Yep, there was some of that there as well. So yes she was a pawn of YWAM, absolutely she was a pawn, but she was also the queen of her own chess board and she was damn happy to be the most powerful player in that game.

Troy: And that’s why Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters longest podcast name ever, is in fact such a powerful, powerful podcast, because you guys have that insight. We only have interviews and books and music, and our own experience, and it’s so good what you do. You just tear down this idol – Feet of Clay, this is it. Both of them. So when you say things like that, I have to go – okay. Because I don’t know, and you do, and that’s what makes your podcast so amazing, and this is why we all tune in.

Brian: Just a little bit about the name – Troy, just before people start calling us out, Feet of Clay, Confessions of the Cult Sisters, we are I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist, an Exvangelical Podcast. So…

Troy: Yeah yeah, but that’s just like a subtext right. We’re actually just I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist – and that’s what I think these guys should be. They should just start saying Feet of Clay – that’s it. Feet of Clay.

Sharon: No!

Troy: But the whole title is Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters yada yada…

Tracey: It’s the Cult Sisters that gets the search engines going.

Brian: Ah. It’s the SEO.

Troy: Ah, okay.

Sharon: You taught us that, little bros. You taught us that.

Troy: Yep, the search engine optimization. Good job.

Brian: I would have another sub-line that says Only Grans, and you watch it take off. It will be nuts.

[laughter]

Tracey: I think you’re so right. I think I’m gonna have to ask my dear AI what kind of graphic would they give the Only Grans.

[laughter]

Brian: I can’t wait.

Sharon: Oh my god.

Tracey: Might be coming!

Sharon: Merch, Tracey. We can have a subtext of merch, a whole subcategory. I think we can do that.

Tracey: [laughing] a subtext of merch.

Troy: Interestingly, when I tried to make our graphic originally, cos I was using the Microsoft one (as you would, right?)

Tracey: You would.

Troy: The Microsoft Image Generator, and when I asked it to do things for the devil, it refused. So somewhere in there you’re saying you’re not allowed to make devil imagines, but when I said put horns on it, no problem.

Tracey: Okay, I’ve done a couple of AI things and it has refused anything really sexual. So I have to – I think I did naked and it refused that.

Troy: Yeah, I did naked for us too, because it would have been funny for us, standing up – we would have pixilated out the genitals like Rick and Morty do, but no it wouldn’t even go that far.

Brian: Wow, you would have seen my man cans in full flight.

Sharon: Oooh.

Tracey: Alright Sharon, were you trying to wrap up so we can give these beautiful Aussies their day back?

Sharon: I know, I could go on for ever and ever with them, but I want to be respectful of their time and their lives and their families – hey, do you guys get offended if somebody confuses you with kiwis?

Brian: Um, no, I mean – you guys are Russian, right?

[laughter]

Troy: I think it’s the other way around isn’t it? Kiwis get offended – like Canadians get offended if they get called Americans; kiwis get offended if they get called Australian.

Sharon: Ah okay.

Brian: We do have a camaraderie between us and the kiwis. The kiwis – New Zealand lays around about 2000 kms off the Australian coast to the south – southeast, to be exact. They see themselves as a really different identity, which they should, because in many ways they’re more progressive than Australia. They’ve got a treaty with their indigenous peoples there, they’re a lot more progressive in many ways socially, as well, so I think they want to separate themselves from Australia – we’re really still struggling to have its identity. That’s my take on it. Plus we have taunted them many years, calling them sheep shaggers. That is probably the biggest fight we have with them, because – you can look it up. Sheep shaggers, for those that don’t know what that means.

Sharon: Sheep shaggers. It didn’t foster goodwill. But you know I listen to your voices, Brian and Troy, and I do think of Jermaine and Brett. So it makes me laugh and smile to imagine the two of you in a music duo, similar to Flight of the Conchords.

Brian: I do love Flight of the Conchords.

Sharon: Would you consider, since you both were worship leaders and singers, would you write a song and record it together? A parody song?

Brian: Please don’t confuse me as a singer. I was never a singer. I cannot hold a tune, I can just get a crowd going.

Sharon: You can just do the low voice, you can do the low voice narrative like Jermaine does.

Brian: I can, and I can do that well. That’ll be fine. Yes, we will consider it and will you manage us?

Sharon: Oh brother, you got it! I’ll make it happen.

Troy: Get us onto HBO.

Brian: That’s right, we need a US – that’s where the money is.

Sharon: We’ll bring you on a US tour!

Brian: Perfect. Done.

Sharon: Hey, Flamy Grant’s doing a concert here at my farm in Florida in October. Maybe you could be the opening act? That’s how you could get started?

Brian: I thought Melody was doing support.

Tracey: That would be great also.

Troy: That would be great, like HIV.

[laughter]

Troy: Great like herpes.

Sharon: Oh man.

Tracey: Great like herpes.

Sharon: And it’s forever.

Troy: It’s forever!

Sharon: So I guess as we kind of close this – shall we do the while every head is bowed and every eye is closed, what else has the Lord put on your hearts to share with our listeners?

Tracey: I mean, you never led worship, Sharon. You should probably let them do that since you never led worship, ever.

Sharon: That’s true, but I can – that was not worship, that was an altar call.

Tracey: Oh yeah, yeah.

Brian: Well, rather than asking for the offering, we’ll give out our Patreon details.

Sharon: Perfect!

Tracey: That would be great.

Sharon: Please do.

Tracey: Yes please. So we will shout out to listeners, Sharon and I are Patreon members, so we do have to say this. Obviously it was a year ago that we came on your podcast. You have been fantastic. I mean, you’ve just been all the things that we’ve talked about as far as sincere, and just open hearted, you’ve great mentors, you’ve been on tap for lots of questions that we’ve had. Honestly, we would not be doing what we’re doing today if it wasn’t for you. Listeners, we’re not just blowing smoke up their you-know-whats. You have been really great friends, and we are so honored to know you and we’re so honored to be able to listen to your podcast, and we’re honored to be Patreon members because we think you’re doing a fantastic thing and your season five sounds phenomenal. That’s sincere and genuine.

Sharon: We love you.

Troy: We’ve got the commune starting up, ladies, so we’re really looking forward to you guys coming and moving down here.

Sharon: We’re only fit to cook and clean.

Troy: That’s right!

Tracey: I mean, once a commune girl, always a commune girl. I am still pro-commune [laughing]

Sharon: Me too.

Tracey: As long as I can be in control.

Brian: The good thing is you don’t have to run the print workshop anymore, you just have to press send on the newsletter. We have made it a bit easier for you so you can spend more time cooking and cleaning.

[laughter]

Troy: Amen. But you guys have done so much for us too, like you guys – you’re there, I know there’s been times I’ve so overshared in that chat and told you what’s really going on in my life, and you guys have just been wonderful, so I think this is a friendship, right?

Sharon: It is a friendship, and when you are friends and you are connected, and you don’t have to self-edit, that is the friendship, that is the true fellowship where we can be authentic and vulnerable and real, and what’s so funny is that connection that I feel with you two and with some others – it’s like what we were promised…

Troy: Hold on – what others?

[laughter]

Troy: Who else? What??

Sharon: No one else is on your level, I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Let me go back to being faithful.

[laughter]

Troy: Yeah, yeah, keep going.

Sharon: But it’s a level of connection and friendship that we aspired to when we were in the Christian bible box, but we could never get to because we always had to hold some parts of ourselves of not being worthy, and how wonderful to abandon the mantra of all Christian hymns which is basically God is great and I am shit, and God is  great and I am shit – no, we are great. You guys are great, and your friendship, I’m serious man, it means so much. It means so much to us.

Brian: Aww, and likewise.

Troy: Yeah, us too.

Brian: It’s great the only thing you had to abandon today were your pants, Sharon, for the podcast recording. But we agree, there’s a real connection and I think it’s something you only get when you get it, when you understand each other, you understand what you’re trying to do, what you’re trying to communicate, and that genuineness you try and bring across. So, thank you to you two. You owe us nothing! I just looked at the stats – one thing I do want to say to your listeners is go and listen to Sharon’s episode, it’s a couple of thousand downloads behind Tracey’s and I reckon…

Troy: So lift hers…

Brian: Lift hers, and then they can…

Troy: Sharon must become more while Tracey becomes less.

[laughter]

Brian: Yes, that’s right. So get in there, listen to it, let’s see how we can do it. That’s the challenge for you today people, get in there and listen.

Sharon: That’s hysterical.

Tracey: But I’m fine with staying at number one.

Sharon: Of course she is.

Brian: You’re fairly safe, in fairness, you’re fairly safe. A couple of thousand ahead, but it is a challenge to your listeners, if they were committed enough they could definitely do it.

Sharon: Well, she deserves to be ahead because it wouldn’t be happening without Tracey. She’s the impetus behind this whole thing.

Brian: You’re impotent?

[laughter]

Troy: The key is don’t open Sharon’s episode because that will give her a bump, you just open Tracey’s – oh sorry, the other way round. I’ll edit that, okay.

[laughter]

Sharon: Sharon’s the one at the editing helm, so I don’t know.

Troy: I’m 54 this year! I’m 54 this year. You know what I’m trying to say – open Sharon’s episode, don’t open Tracey’s, and that way you’ll bump up her numbers.

Tracey: You’ll bump it up.

Sharon: You guys are so funny. This is like this after glow – I keep trying to be respectful so you guys can sign off, and we just keep talking but this is actually fun.

Troy: Hey, I want to show you my Dallas jersey before we go.

Sharon: Oh do! Yes!

Tracey: I’m glad that you clarified that. I wasn’t sure what he was going to say, Brian.

[laughter]

Brian: He’s gone. He’s gone to his – it’s weird.

Troy: [sounding distant] Did you think I was going to show you my rash?

Tracey: Yeah, I thought that was…

Troy: Have a look.

Sharon: Look at that!

Troy: My Dallas jersey. It’s a real one.

Sharon: Wow.

Troy: And then I’ve got my Dallas hat, so I’ve got this one, and this one, I’ve got key chains and I’ve got all kinds of really good stuff.

Sharon: I’ll go to a football game with you if you come here Troy.

Troy: Yeah, I’ll come. I will. I’ve already said to my wife that I’m going to go over, so let’s do it.

Sharon: And Brian, at some point you’ll need to prioritize friendships over your fun other vacation time, but we’ll give you a couple year’s notice.

Troy: I know, fucking Sri Lanka.

Brian: I am really – it’s something that I’m really organized with holidays, so not only do I have this year’s holidays planned and booked and already paid for, but I’ve got next year’s already planned, so I am very organized, so yes, a couple of year’s notice would be amazing.

Tracey: Wow. So in demand.

Sharon: So what year would work for you Brian?

Brian: Have to be 2026.

Tracey: Wow.

Sharon: 2026.

Tracey: We’re going to be really old then, Sharon. God.

Troy: They’ll have colonized the moons of Europa by then Brian, that’s just so far away.

Tracey: Yeah, it really is.

Troy: So did you hear that Molly has left Cheers to Leaving?

Tracey: Yes. We were very sad.

Sharon: Well, I get it. I was going to ask you Troy about something I noticed, as of course I’m doing the editing, so we all spend time prepping for an episode, which you gotta think about it and organize it and some of the material is more intense than others, and then we have our time recording it – and of course, this with you guys is just wonderful and I find it encouraging and uplifting and just great. Some episodes that we do, it’s heavy subject matter and it’s tough. Or we’re interviewing people and we’re hearing stories of really hard stuff. Then I notice I go in and edit, and now I’m spending hours with the material.

Troy: You’re soaking in it.

Sharon: I’m not necessarily listening to the whole story because I’m dealing with the sound stuff, but still it’s like you’re in it for hours. I found that I had to recognize that it was feeling really weighty, really hard, and I think that’s a different experience than if you simply prepare and record versus prepare record and then edit. I was just curious Troy, what your experience has been.

Troy: That’s why I had to stop. It was like – what’s that Palmolive dishwashing liquid – you’re soaking in it. I totally got to the point where I just had to stop in August last year and went I can’t do this anymore, and we had to find editors to be able to do it, because I knew I couldn’t do it. You ask Brian, even now the editors will send things back and I’ll say to him, can you listen? Because I can’t listen to it again. I’m sort of like, two times with each episode and I’m done. That’s as much as I can go, so Brian and I are sharing that now. He’ll listen to the stuff, and find the gaps, or find the mistakes and send it back to the editor. That made a massive difference. If I’d had to keep editing, I don’t know that I could have done the podcast, and I think it’s probably fair to say I couldn’t have done the podcast. Three years of soaking in my trauma and other people’s trauma just got too much. That was also the difference in going this new direction, right, in saying we’re just going to look forward. One of the things we said with our episode when you listen to it, we mentioned you guys and said there is still a place for the trauma, and there is still podcasts need to be doing that, and we actually recommended your podcast because you are still in that place and telling those stories, and it’s 100% super important.

Sharon: Well, thank you.

Troy: And we’re not saying for a minute everybody should now be moving forward and not looking back – no. but that’s us. That’s what we’ve gotta do.

Sharon: I’m glad for you.

Tracey: No that’s really good. Gotta take care of yourself and that’s something I know I remind myself regularly. Even though I’m not doing the editing, just getting in and reading all the Instagram messages and staying in there, there’s a lot of stories that come through there that’s like, this could make you break down, and making sure that I’m taking time to cut away from it all so I’m not steeping in the subject matter is very important.

Troy: People get paid for this shit, and we don’t. That sort of support – there’s government grants out there for people to do this, and we’re doing it on top of fulltime jobs, and families, and all that we’re doing. Let’s be real, this is a work.

Sharon: It is.

Tracey: Alright you guys ready for me to hit stop?

Sharon: Well, we have to sign off.

Brian: You have to sign off, but I just want to acknowledge Tracey’s commitment to recording in weird situations. When we recorded our episode with Tracey she was inside a closet. Thankfully she’s come out of the closet. Today she is recording from what looks like underneath a laundry basket with a towel draped over it, because that’s what it is, so next time I look forward to the creativity of where we record. It’s going to be enlightening, to say the least.

Tracey: Yes it is. I still don’t know that people quite understood that I was literally in a closet when I recorded with you, and how many people wondered if I was trying to come out as a gay woman, but…

Troy: The irony of that – should I come on this show or not, should I be telling this story – I’m going to do it from the closet. The irony.

[laughter]

Tracey: So great.

Sharon: Alright, well, Tracey, thank you for putting your stuff out there; Troy and Brian, thank you for finding Tracey.

Tracey: Yes.

Sharon: Thank you guys for connecting, thank you for kicking this whole thing off, thank you for being our friends, thank you for doing this episode with us, and we love you both so much and we look forward to some day we’ll be in the same place – we’ll meet here, there or in the air – is that what we used to say?

Tracey: Yeah, but because only Troy and I are going in the air we need to meet here.

Troy: That’s right, because you two don’t believe in the afterlife.

Tracey: Because you don’t believe in the afterlife, so we need to make sure we meet here. We’ll facetime or stream it when we do.

Brian: We’ll invite you for BBQ at our warm place, and you guys can come over.

Sharon: Nice. Get me Tim Minchim tickets. I will come to Australia for sure if you can get me Tim Minchim tickets.

Brian: He’s directing a new play.

Troy: A new show here – Groundhog Day.

Brian: Groundhog Day, yeah.

Sharon: I mean, I’ll buy ‘em. You don’t have to pay for them, I’ll pay for them, but you gotta find them for me, okay?

Brian: We love Tim Minchim too.

Sharon: Alright,

Tracey: Alright, so we will put all the connections in the show notes and we are going to sign off now.

Sharon: Bye bye. Say goodbye Tracey!