This transcrpit has been edited for clarity.

Episode 033 – We Discuss a Recent Interview with Melody Green

February 14^th, 2024

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T:  Confessions of the Cult Sisters. And welcome to our second season!

S: Yeah! Saying season two – it’s kind of a mind blower for me. All this started thanks to your creative determination, Miss Tracey.

T: Awww, but we can’t forget about our launch party, courtesy of Troy and Brian from I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist podcast!

S: Yeah well right, we will never, never, never forget Troy and Brian.

T: They’re our little brothers! We call them our little brothers.

S: They are! Our little bros. Okay, so last year we figured out that in less than nine months we recorded over 30 episodes, and we also realised that that once a week pace was just a little too sizzling for us old ladies to sustain in the long term.

T: [laughing] Yeah. So we are even starting off this season by doing our every other week plan.

S: That’s right. And our kick off this season two episode one – it’s actually based on something you sent me back in November. The truth is Tracey, we were both like – just chomping at the bit, really wanting to discuss it then and there, but there just was not enough time to do a good job of it.

T: Yeah. And we did a good job. We tried not to talk about it so it would be fresh for this podcast, and at that point we were bumping against the holidays. So we agreed to prioritize this immediately for season two.

S: Yep. Okay . Tracey, I gotta be up front with you, and of course our listeners. I have got lots and lots and lot of emotions and thoughts about our topic today. What is it the kids say – really big feels. Is that what they say these days?

T: I think it’s all the feels.

S: All the feels! Okay man, I got all the feels, and then some.

T: Yeah. So back in November I sent Sharon a link to what was then a brand new interview. I think it was posted on October 31^st, with Melody Green, that had just been released.

S: Ooh, it was a Halloween thing.

T: It was a Halloween thing!

S: Spooky.

T: I found it in the early part of November, but it was released on October 31^st on another podcast. Sharon, do you know how I stumbled across it?

S: No. How did you find it?

T: Well, we were will often say that our name, Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters is a very long name.

S: Sooo long. So long!

T: [laughing] So if you’re ever trying to search that you’ve got a lot of words to type out. I found a quick hack – you guys can all use this; that if you want to go into the podcast platforms and find us really quickly, you just search in Keith Green (much shorter) and our podcast is usually one of the first ones to come up. So I did that one afternoon. I typed in Keith Green and there was a podcast that showed up that was one I had not seen before, and it was an interview featuring Melody Green.

S: And of course we are going to put the link to that in our show notes, if you want to go in and listen to it personally.

T: Yeah. I was surprized because we kind of haven’t heard from her in recent social or in the news or anything, so immediately I was very interested in what Meldoy was going to be sharing in October of 2023.

S: Yep, yep, yep.

T: So of course, I immediately listened, a lot of times I’m doing that while I’m driving two and from work, and then I sent it to Sharon.

S: Yes you did, and of course I listened to it right away as well. And I guess as one would expect of course, that interview included a super positive pitch for Keith’s music, and Last Days Ministries literature, and Melody’s book, and of course since you and I Tracey, we believe that all of those things can actually cause great harm. Yeah. That’s also part of why we wanted to do this episode.

T: Mmhmm.

S: Alright, so going back to this. As I said Tracey, I recognize that my emotions about this have ranged from one end of the spectrum to the other. Listening to Meldoy in that interview, I felt all kinds of things. I felt empathy, I felt frustration, pity, anger, sorrow, compassion, vexation, longing – all the feels.

T: All the feels.

S: So two things. You’re going to probably have to help me regulate a little bit while we do this, if you hear me getting too intense say something to me sister. Talk me off the ledge.

T: Well, definitely the same-same here, but I want to recognize that you had a much closer relationship with Melody than I did, so I totally get that and understand that you have maybe even more feels than I do. But listening, I actually found myself having a lot more compassion for her. I guess one of the main reasons is I can’t imagine – I often say 30 years and then you tell me it’s 40 years because it’s been such a long time – I can’t imagine still holding on so strongly to those beliefs that I held as a teenager, at this phase in my life.

S: Right.

T: So it’s kind of staggering to me.

S: It is. It is staggering. As I sit here right now, recording right now – how do I even feel about recording this? We’re gonna talk about the stuff she said, and we’re gonna talk about things in her life, and I feel conflicted. I feel like I could sit right across the table from her and talk to her, just sitting here – like, hey, Mel, come on.

T: Wouldn’t that be great if she would come on, and we could sit across the table from her?

S: It would, and I’d really love to talk with her privately, but she’s just not been open or willing for that at all. Anyway, hearing her voice again, it made me think back on my relationship with her, which started in the late 1970s and lasted until I was kicked out of Last Days Ministries – that was in the beginning of 1987. I know we’ve said some of this before, I kind of hate repeating it, but there are newer listeners and this can help maybe put the level of our relationship into context. So in the years before Keith was killed, I and my then husband (who was one of the “elders” at Last Days), we spent significant time with Keith and Melody. We had dinners together; we went to the movies, we hung out for game nights, we’d – you know, hang out at their house. That was just ongoing, ongoing time we spent together. We even took a European vacation together, not to mention all the daily interactions with producing and printing and shipping out the literature and the albums and the teaching tapes, which went out to hundreds of thousands of people. The operations side of that was mostly with Keith. That was mostly with him, but as far as us as couples, we were in their will to raise their kids if she and Keith died. Then in the years after the plane crash, Melody and I – we worked together on the content of the Last Days magazine, and we even co-wrote articles together. Even on a really personal side, in 1985 Mel was there with me during the labor and delivery of my first child.

T: I know! I know, we have those pictures and we can post some of those because that definitely is a much closer relationship than a lot of us at Last Days had with Melody.

S: Yeah, I mean, we were way more than just mere casual acquaintances.

T: Mmhmm.

S: And I think about so much that has happened, right, in the decades since then. The wisdom I’ve gained; the ups and downs; the pains, the traumas, the triumphs, the insights that is part of the course of life. When I think about that and then I look back on our time together at Last Days, I’m not really sure it was a two way friendship, or a mutual relationship. There’s probably a variety of reasons for that. One thing is Melody always did seem a little closed off to everyone. Let’s be fair – she’s 15 years older than me.

T: Oh wow. Yeah.

S: So at the time, I’m in my 20s, she’s in her 30s so she probably didn’t really view me as her peer, and I can understand that but I think also another really big part was because the Last Days Ministries belief system and this whole fish bowl of commune life – it did not foster any real authenticity of the individual self, for any of us – right?

T: Correct.

S: And if you can’t know and embrace yourself for who you truly are, you certainly can’t create close connections with others.

T: Wow. Yeah. There’s so much to that, and we’ll unpack it a little bit more as we go on. Spoiler alert, for those who plan to listen to Melody in that interview – one of the things that really jumped out at me, and it goes along with the intro that you just gave, is I can still hear a lot of that pain in her. We’ll get into more of the reasons why that is, but Sharon in all that, I know you’ve reached out to her in years past. I know in the beginning when all this stuff was going down at LDM and then more recently, I think just a few months ago – I’m not quite sure how many weeks. Have you had any response at all from her in that?

S: Nope. Nothing. Nothing at all. To be specific on the recent side of things, last October I messaged her again, both by email to the main LDM website, you know the official contact thing, and then personally on Facebook. I did get a response from the Last Days administration person, whoever that is.

T: We don’t know who that is, right?

S: No. I think the person and the name Joy sticks in my mind, but I don’t remember for sure. Part of it was I had requested that they discontinue the two remaining articles that I could remember had been written by me, then there was a bunch of follow ups back and forth for a couple of weeks. I was finally able to confirm that they did in fact remove those from the website. So guess what Tracey, I didn’t even tell you this. A week and a half ago or whatever, as we were starting to prep for this episode, I went onto the site just to be sure that those articles were in fact gone. When I was doing that I discovered another article by me that I had totally forgotten about, so a week and a half ago I emailed again asking for that also to be removed. As of this morning when we’re recording, that last one, the kind of hidden one – it is still available so if you go on there and you search my name, which back then was Sharon Bennett, it pops up. But anyway.

T: Oh wow.

S: So that was the business side of that correspondence but on the personal side? No. I haven’t had any response from Melody. Not from all those years ago and still not in these past several months. I mean, Tracey, it’s been over 35 years. That is a LONG time to be stuck, right?

T: mmhmm!

S It’s a fucking long time to be living in such fear of speaking to someone who you once trusted enough to raise your children. That’s a lot of fear, isn’t it?

T: It’s – or something, right?

S: Or something.

T: You and I have talked about that as far as reaching out to her. I had a couple of immediate thoughts when I saw that new interview. I think honestly my first one is oh, maybe she knows we’re out here and she’s trying to come out and set her record straight, right? Because I didn’t know if she’d have any references to us.

S: Yeah, yeah…

T: And then she didn’t make any reference to us.

S: Let me just say, I’m pretty sure she’s aware our podcast exists, but I seriously doubt she’s ever listened to any of the episodes, is my guess.

T: Yeah. I mean, you reached out to her you told her, right?

S: I did. I told her. We’re doing this podcast.

T: And we do know that – well, we did make a splash on the LDM Alumni page which we mentioned in a couple of past episodes.

S: We got kicked out!

T: Which she is still a member of.

S: We got kicked out again!

T: And we know of people kind of closer in her circles that know we’re out here, and for me, I was especially hoping that somebody would let her know that we did an interview with Dawn Green.

S: Right, right.

T: And I was hoping that if she listened to anything, she would at least listen to that episode.

S: Yeah. So for those who are not familiar, Dawn was the foster daughter of Keith and Melody. She lived with them starting in California when she was about ten years old, and then of course lived in their home as their daughter onward through adulthood. I think it’s important to point out again, Dawn is the only living person who experienced Keith Green as a parent.

T: Mmm. You always make that point – that is something really to think about. Of course, those are episodes 15 and 16 from our season one, and we will link those in our show notes. But when we released those episodes, I couldn’t imagine not being curious, right? If I were here I would have been so curious to at least click in and see what are these people saying. I wouldn’t have been able to stay away from that.

S: Me either. Me either. But – I don’t know. Do you remember Dana Carvey, when he would do his impersonation of George Bush Senior?  And it was like, na ga ga. Na ga ga. Remember that?

[laughter]

S: Not going to happen! Not going to do it.

T: So Dana Carvey – you’re dating us, first of all, because I think that is way OG Saturday Night Live.

S: Ohhh and the church lady! I totally forgot – isn’t that special!

T: I have seen clips of the church lady. But I was not watching Saturday Night Live Sharon, because that was really worldly and we didn’t have a TV for a while, so that’s just always able to be called out by you, which probably means you were sneaking some worldly stuff again.

S: Yeah. Schneaking. That’s me! Schneaking.

T: You’re schneaking. Oh, we need to do our own parody of two fundys and one person is always sneaking, and of course that would be you.

S: Of course that would be me, yes.

T: Of course it would be. One of our former cult sisters, who was with us at LDM, we had a good long conversation not too long ago, and she mentioned that she was still very hopeful that Melody would begin to start seeing some of the more toxic aspects of – what did you say, that new acronym that you created last season. Was it STOS?

S: Wait, what is that?

T: You’re – and I had a really good image of this up on Instagram – The Shit ton of Shit.

S: Oh. Yeah. The Shit ton of Shit.

[laughter]

T: The fucking toxic shit. So there at least is some hope out there that maybe there is still time for her to start seeing some of this.

S: That would be amazing.

T: It would be. I think of another book review we did on Shannon Harris. When we read through that just saw her honest outlook of everything that she stood for, and she grew out of that – that was awesome, and I think, how powerful would that be if Melody from her platform could write a book like that. Especially now in this environment. At this recording the IHOP Kansas City is still going through quite a scandal, of which Melody was part of at one point.

S: I don’t want to send us down too much of a rabbit trail, but in 50 words or less, what’s your understanding of Melody’s previous relationship with IHOP KC? I know she was in Kansas City for quite a number of years.

T: Yeah, in 50 words or less, and I think there are people who might know more than I, but I think as Last Days Ministries was really ending m y ex and I followed the prophets of Kansas City at that time, of which Mike Bickle was the head and lead prophet. She was really drawn to that. I think even the community they were building at the time, there was going to be a similar school to the one like YWAM had, the one like Last Days Ministries had, and personally I think it was the community aspect and the similarities that drew her, as well as the platform of being so connected to kind of the leading edge to people within the prophetic ministry at that time. That’s my perspective.

S: Okay, okay cool. Thank you for that.

T: Yeah, so…

S: Back to what you were saying though, about how amazing would it be if Melody put out a really honest book, or a really honest interview – that would just be so powerful. Thinking if she even just started down that path of honesty and self-reflection, but I think she’s still far, far away from anything like that. Not only on this recent interview, but also her public remarks from the stage in July of 2022 which was the anniversary of the crash – I mean, this super pro-YWAM, telling people to get training, go onto missions – it’s clear there’s still this closed tunnel vision, this immature circular logic going on.

T: Oh yeah. I’m going to remind listeners who may not have heard back when I said that in the past, that it really was that public celebration of the 40th anniversary of the plane crash, held at the Tyler base of Youth With A Mission that was down the road from Last Days Ministries that really got me spurred to get this podcast started. After all these years, after all the broken marriages in the circles that we’ve travelled in; after all the things that you started saying at the beginning – growing older and wiser, and raising kids, and just learning about love and life. Us going through divorce. She went through a divorce. I was not just surprized, I was stunned that they went so hard on the more toxic part of Last Days Ministries and Kathleen Dillard that went so hard on the more toxic parts of Keith’s personality. Ugh. The veneration that was in what they shared, and not even understanding the exploitation, the control, the harm – I honestly was not expecting that. There’s a great Instagram account that talks about all these songs that go hard and shouldn’t (it’s hilarious) – we often all did go hard on things and shouldn’t, but this was one of those. They went hard on that and they should not have.

S: Oh I know. I could barely sit still watching it. I’m just like, going holy shit, you’re kidding me! Oh my god, I can’t believe they’re saying these things. It’s like they are totally stuck in a time warp, and I’m not talking about the wonderful Rocky Horror version.

T: [singing] Let’s do the time warp, again.

S: Oh yeah baby. Hey Tracey, so let’s give listeners – because I made a couple of quick notes, so let’s give listeners just a little flavor of that crash anniversary message that was in the summer of ‘22 – your inspiration for this, and to me it was just dripping with spiritual elitism and this just shitting out shame on everyone else. So here’s an example. Melody said something to the effect of, why am I following Jesus? I tried everything else. And she said, I know Satan is real. And I’m thinking to myself oh my god, I mean, what? It’s the perfect combination of ignorance and arrogance. I tried everything. No you didn’t. No person on earth can fucking try everything. It just didn’t happen. And I know Satan is real? I mean, I’m watching this grown woman and I’m thinking, you believe in leprechauns too? It’s just mind boggling.

T: Yeah, and it’s even born out of that, I know when Kathleen went on and talked about how basically Keith Green didn’t honor any boundaries and just pushed, pushed, pushed, as a way of evidence of being really sold out to Jesus and the fruit of the Spirit, and I was like, oh my god, I cannot abide by this where you are venerating someone who clearly has other issues going on. Then the thing I think also really stood out to me was Melody went hard on pronouns. So in the middle of this Keith Green 40^th anniversary she starts calling out this younger generation like, they’re trying to tell you that you should be using pronouns, and they’re asking me what my pronouns are and clearly I’m Melody Green, and it’s just this kind of angry rant in the middle of this speech.

S: And mocking. There was mockery in her voice.

T: Mockery, which then circled around to the ultimate message of the night, which was no compromise. No compromise, no compromise, no compromise. And it was no compromise on the stuff that’s been so toxic and so harmful, and I was like, I can’t sit silent anymore and have this stuff be seen in this historical kind of rose colored glasses of how awesome it all was.

S: I suppose we should probably put the link to it in our show notes as well, for those who feel they want to try to stomach God knows how many hours of nausea.

T: You can put it on a higher speed and flick through to other stuff. That’s how I get through things.

S: Yep. Just one last thing on that – it did crack me up, both Kathleen and Mel were like – they were almost a little bit laughing. They’ve gone to these super-secret places and they’ve done these super-secret things for the Kingdom of God but they can’t tell us, because – that’s how important they are, and we clearly are not, and I was just like – wow. The blindness they have to their self-importance is just – it’s laughable. It’s laughable.

T: Yeah. It’s laughable, and I think if people are listening and they’re like wow, that’s really harsh, I mean, it is basically someone picking up a hammer that was used so destructively on other people’s lives, and still talking about how great it was. It’s laughable, but it’s also chilling because it continues to happen in so many spaces. That’s why we’re doing this.

S: Yep. You know Tracey, before we go into discussing this latest interview, because that’s just talking about the thing that got us kicked off, that anniversary of the crash dog-and-pony show they did, but before we go into this latest interview that was just released in October of ’23, I just want to do this. Hey Mel, if for any reason you are listening to this, with all my heart I want you to know that I do wish you well. I do. And I know that you have suffered losses beyond what I can possibly comprehend. My heart breaks for you in that, it really does. I wish for you healing, and connection, and fullness of joy. More than one thing can be true at the same time. As Tracey and I are examining the past, and the present – you hear us. We are calling out the specific things that we think were and are and continue to be destructive. Destructive to countless others, but also destructive to yourself. Please remember that we hold ourselves just as accountable for having been a part of these beliefs and behaviors that are damaging and they do not reflect a reality of love. With all my heart, I know with Tracey as well, we invite you to look more closely inside yourself and please don’t shy away from those tiny cracks, those little pinpricks of light that are trying to pierce the wall. I know they’re there Melody, I know they’re there, and I know that’s part of probably why you’re afraid to talk with me. But I will be here for you. Tracey will be here for you. We will be here for you if ever you want to connect.

T: We get it. We’ve had to face these things inside of us. It’s not just our perspective on this past. There are so many. There are so many currently in the IHOP Kansas City folk, there are so many Youth With A Mission stories – I mean, more and more continue to come out with a simple google search that will bring you to some pretty eye-opening stories. We’re going to have also some more to share on the whole Youth With A Mission stuff. So we get it, and it is hard, especially when we’ve talked about facing our children and seeing the harm we’ve done to them, so we know it’s hard. But without further ado Sharon, I think we should dive in then, on what we got out of listening to this most current interview that Melody did. So I have three main things that struck me as I was listening to this.

S: [laughing] I know! And when you told me that I was thinking wow, I have a lot more than three.

[laughing]

S: So Tracey, I’m following your lead on organizing this discussion.

T: I mean, just listening to you open this up with the depth of relationship you had, of course you’re going to have way more than three and there is so much to unpack. But I did try to step back – we talked about before that unpacking these topics can be like that spider web of so many interconnections that can get us spun around so I did try to organize it into three topics to make it easier for our listeners to follow along with us.

S: Right.

T: So number one, I was struck by how factually correct it was, because it has been 35-40 years, and we’ve gone on record in telling our stories, and listening I’m was like you know what, she follows the exact timeline of events. I don’t have any issues with the facts of how she laid them out. There were no big contradictions. But in that I think what then also jumped out is how there was no self-reflection on that. It was literally a regurgitating of the timeline of events, again with those rose colored glasses of wasn’t that amazing.

S: [laughing] Yep, and not even a hint, not even a hint of understanding of how fucked up the structure was; the control, the manipulation, the harm.

T: No. And then the second thing that really jumped out was her own personal pain and trauma. I mean, again, you mentioned it from the beginning. I think all of us have had boatloads of compassion. I can’t imagine experiencing the losses she’s experienced. So we’re not trying to take that away from her at all, but the amount of personal pain and trauma that still resonated through every one of her stories kind of broke my heart afresh a little. I mean, my other thought was I don’t know if she’s ever really gotten into some serious, secular grief counselling – some real stuff that we know sometimes Christian counselling just reinforces the same old story; just pray harder, believe more…

S: Right.

T: And it did break my heart that she seems to have such a gaping hole still.

S: Yeah. I agree. It’s slightly possible that she did get some competent secular therapy but if so, she doesn’t even mention it in anything I’ve heard of.

T: Yep. Which then brings me to the third point that really stuck out to me, is there is so much apparent (and maybe it’s because of everything I’ve learned and grown in throughout the years) but when she talks, it’s such apparent cognitive dissonance. I mean, literally dripping in her stories. I don’t think she’s intending that, but it’s just so eye-opening to me, so on the one hand…

S: Yeah, it’s the Christian double-speak.

T: It is! I guess when you’re in it you can’t really see it. On the one hand she’s doubling down on how Jesus is the only one who can get you through the stuff she’s had to go through, but then she goes on and I think she talks pretty damningly on how that healing that supposedly was promised – it really didn’t come to her the way that she needed or expected, and that was palpable for me. And heartbreaking. Absolutely heartbreaking. It’s also obvious that she has built Keith up in her mind to be super-human.

S: Yeah. Super Christian.

T: And then telling her stories – that to most of us who have gone through our healing journey are clear red flags, we’re like, whoa.

S: Oh yeah.

T: She tells those without any hint of embarrassment or shame and actually defends some of those stories as marks of a godly man, and that was very telling to me.

S: Oh, you’re so right. Oh my god.  Alright well, yes, I’m going to try to fit my stuff under your three topics. As we discuss these things I do want to be very clear about something. I believe that Melody, like many of us, was both a victim and later a victimizer. When you listen to her own words – if you’re reading the book No Compromise, and if you’re listening to this interview, you can hear clear evidence of the excessive control and emotional abuse that she experienced from Keith.

T: Yes.

S: It is so sad to me that all of that behavior, all of that mindfuckery has been normalized and glorified in the name of being sold out for Jesus.

T: So glorified! That’s what was evident at the 40^th anniversary – it’s like, HOW can you guys want to perpetuate this? Ohh. So Sharon, as we go through these two kind of overarching topics…

S: You mean three.

T: We have…oh, what did I say? Two?

S: You said two. Can you count, woman?

T: I’ve taken a bucket away. I’m done! I’m taking the buckets away.

S: No, we’re doing three. We’re doing three of them.

T: We’re doing three. We did make some notes of some things that Melody said in the interview. They aren’t all word for word quotes; and obviously if you guys have read the books, if you’ve followed her story from any point or angle, then you’ll understand what we’re saying.

S: So we’re not going to say, Melody said quote, such and such, right. We just need to say something like Melody talked about, or Melody was telling this story or that sort of thing, right?

T: Yes.

S: Okay, so that’s what we’re going to do. Good point. So your first bucket Tracey, is that in the interview, Melody was generally factually correct in the things that she shared.

T: Yes, so factually correct. She goes into the history of how she and Keith eventually got saved, and one of the things she talked about is that Keith was really into reading only the red letters in the bible.

S: Right, but this is before they got saved though, right? This is before they got saved.

T: Yes, I would say it was part of that journey – the journey of they’re searching and Keith Green – how old was he at the time?

S: Oh my god, what was he, 19, right? I mean, he was a kid. He was a kid.

T: He was a kid.

S: And he was into that interpretation that fell in line with Godspell and the hippy culture of Jesus Christ Superstar, and Melody talked about how Keith viewed Jesus as “a” master, not “the” master. Actually, he had it right then, then he went on to get all fucked up about it. And the other thing Melody said in that was Keith was following Jesus; I was following Keith. Now, that’s a direct quote. I was following Keith. I have a sense that in some ways she was dragged along on so much of Keith’s wild ride and I’m not sure that all of this was really what she wanted.

T: That was something that many of us felt even at Last Days and I think that’s one of those – she said the quiet part out loud. I think that’s actually very telling of what was going on inside of her.

S: Mmhmm.

T: One of the aspects of that – one of the things Keith Green is known for saying is all these other religions – they point to Jesus. Buddhists like Jesus; Muslims like Jesus. So Jesus must be the good guy.

S: I’m not sure that’s true, but okay.

T: Maybe it was more true in the 70s when it was kind of all, everyone’s searching and Jesus is a good prophet. Recently – I mean, like last year, mid-2023, there was this very weird clip that was making the rounds on social media, and it was titled Man Uses Logical Thinking to Come to Jesus. It doesn’t quote him as being Keith Green so I guess whoever pulled that clip wasn’t quite aware of his reputation, and it shows this clip from when Keith Green was on the 700 club years ago, basically saying the same thing – well, they pointed to Jesus, and this religion pointed to Jesus, so Jesus must be the one. That’s how he used logical thinking to come up with that.

S: [laughing] Logical thinking. What it is is absolute juvenile thinking, right?

T: Oh my gosh.

S: Here we are laughing, just laughing at the ridiculousness of it. I’m sure you’ve seen it, there’s this great meme out there and it shows this extension power cord thing, so it plugs into the wall and it’s got multiple outlets on it, and the idea is you can plug a whole bunch of things into it – except, instead of it being plugged into the wall, it’s plugged into itself, and it’s perfect, right?

T: Oh yes.

S: Because the caption is when someone says the bible is true, because it says so in the bible.

T: Yes. I’ve been listening to also a lot, some of the clips by Dan McClennan. We’ll definitely put his links in our show notes. They’re short little snippets that really go into some historical misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the bible, as we all lived it, knew it, and many people know it today.

S: Yeah. And Bart Ehrman – he’s got incredible in depth debunking as well, so we’ll put a link in for him too. Alright. Melody does talk about the early formation of the Last Days community and helping people, and that’s the good part of Jesus’ message, right? That’s the thing that was good to do, like the Beatitudes, and the Good Samaritan – that’s kind of back to the red letter stuff, but it’s interesting also how far that is from today’s religious right.

T: Oh, so far!

S: And Melody’s more aligned herself with that, than with that original idea, but anyway I’m jumping around too much.

T: No, I think that is really important because as she was talking about that – you know, you can hear – and I think Sharon, you and I have also been guilty of sometimes when we reference that time period, there is a fondness that comes out of what we’re talking about. Because in that teenage heart that we had, we were wanting to make the world a better place. I think that’s why so many people are drawn to Youth With A Mission, and IHOP Kansas City, and all of these. You have this desire to do what Jesus did. You have two coats, give one away. If people don’t have something you should reach in and give it, so I tracked with her on that. I understand that that was a lot of that youthful innocence and zeal, and then – then it went awry.

S: Yeah. It did. It’s kind of pointing back to the red letters – or at least, some of the red letters, yeah?

T: Yes. One of the red letters. Or you could take the Thomas Jefferson approach, where he went through and took out all the really bad, toxic points of the bible. Because I would contend that there still are some red letters I would probably cut out as well, even though Jesus said them, but that’s another topic.

S: Well right, okay but I’m going to say this. The people who just want to focus on the red letters – why? We know those are the exact words that Jesus said because he wrote them down himself, right?

T: [laughing]

S: Oh wait, no, no, not that. Okay, we know those are the exact words of Jesus, because someone who was there with him was taking dictation as he said each word. Right?

[laughter]

S: Not that either.

T: Dong, dong, dong.

S: It’s because his actual disciples memorized what he had said and then wrote it down right after he died and ascended to heaven, right? Nope. EEeh. Not that either.

T: Dong, dong, dong.

S: The fact is, true historic biblical scholars agree, that the so-called four gospels – they weren’t written down until at least 40 to 70 years after Jesus died.

T: I have to say that rocked my world when I first learned that.

S: As it should.

T: We are going to get into an in depth episode where we talk about how we learned all that stuff. But I think what strikes me is that juvenile thinking that you mentioned, that we were such young teenagers, and that made perfect sense to us.

S: It did. It worked back then. Anyway, I could go on and on…go on and on…go on and on… Okay, next. Go to the next thing.

T: Yeah. So we have to also remember it was the counter-culture time, back to that time of the fondness of trying to have all things in common, and standing against the whole materialistic of our parents, and every generation wants to rebel, so you have all that going on, but then LDM morphed – way morphed – into a business to churn out literature and albums, and you were with it from the beginning where you watched that change.

S: Yeah.

T: I think in one of our episodes you talk about how it was like this Evangelical association, and then it was like a business.

S: Yeah. It did become very much like that. And I do want to say one other thing going back to that whole idyllic, hippy, we’re going to help everybody – there was truth to that. That drew us but also it was conditional. There was still an agenda. Because you’re not there to help other people just for the sake of genuinely making their lives better. No. you have an ulterior motive. You’re there to get people to believe, to convert. I say this – Christians who are saying we’re feeding the homeless because we’re doing what Jesus asked us to do. Okay, maybe you are, but if you knew for certain that these homeless people will never “accept Jesus” would you still go out there and spend all that money and all that time to help and feed them? Or would you move onto someone else who’s more likely to buy into your belief system?

T: Hmmm. I think of the scripture casting your pearls before swine.

S: How does that apply?

T: That we’re actually taught, don’t waste your time on those people who aren’t going to yield fruit.

S: Ahh. Right. I’d always thought of that in terms of trying to convince someone with an argument that doesn’t want to listen, whose heart is hard, but yeah.

T: I remember when I was first searching out Jesus, I think I did have a genuine desire to help people. I would say it was the methodical conditioning and teaching, and brainwashing of the fundamentalist message that began to twist that for the agenda that you talk about.

S: I think you’re right.

T: You can hear that in Melody’s interview. There’s definitely the agenda that was the overarching theme of all of that.

S: Right. Another theme you hear her talk about is lots of examples of Keith’s lack of boundaries and abusive control. She talks about how he got rid of all her books without her permission. Before they get married they have a huge fight, because Keith wants a cross on their wedding rings and she doesn’t, but guess what, Keith won. And Keith telling Melody she needs to go talk to this person who is crying, and just so much directive control. Again, it’s all kind of glorified in the name of wow, look at this fiery prophet for God.

T: It’s SO glorified Sharon. I think when you did your interview with I Was A Teenage Fundamentalist with Broy…Broy and Trian – Trian and Broy…

S: [giggling]

T: I think that probably that was the first time that a lot of people heard of that bully side of Keith. I don’t know how people responded to that, but when you start hearing these stories and hearing Melody sharing those stories, and it really reinforced that concept of how he just steamrolled over people – and he steamrolled over Melody. To this day, according to that interview of October 31^st, 2023, she doesn’t see that as a red flag or a problem.

S: No. No she doesn’t – or if she does, she does not publicly admit it because it would hurt the brand.

T: Mmmm.

S: It would hurt the brand. Yep. So Melody also shares snippets about other things that Keith thought and did, and again the world is not black and white, and some of this stuff wasn’t bad. Some of this stuff was even admirable, right?

T: Correct.

S: His thing about the gospel should be free. That totally fits with what Jesus taught – the red letters again (or not). Do you remember her talking about him giving a check, giving money to that single mom?

T: Yes. I think you reinforced that all the time, because you knew him more personally than many of us did, that he was generous.

S: Yeah. He was. He was. And then the black and white of not charging for concerts. That really was sincere from his heart. He was like, if this is ministry, you cannot charge, and we shouldn’t be making a ton of money, and I believe that that was sincere from Keith’s heart, and I believe that that was a very good thing.

T: It’s what drew a lot of us to that ministry.

S: Now – did it stay that way? Maybe not, but it began that way, for sure. Now, something I didn’t know, or maybe I had no recollection of and it was just like, oh my GOD for me, was when Melody talks about Last Days Ministries gave YWAM between $200,000 and $300,000 to fill the gas tanks for the Mercy Ships. I’m listening to that and I’m going – holy shit! Wait, wait, wait, what? You know me, I’m always numbers, so in today’s dollars that would be between $640,000 to just under a million dollars. News to me.

T: Yep. So when I saw that, it also reinforced why Keith Green and Last Days were so important to Youth With A Mission. They were not going to let this go easily. I did try to reference up Melody’s book No Compromise, because I think she did talk about the Anastasis there. I could only find the record of giving $28,000 so I don’t know if there was money we didn’t know about, or if in her memory (like the fish), it grew. I don’t know. But I do think that Keith was generous and he was a cash cow for Youth With A Mission, and particularly Loren Cunningham had his eyes set on Keith Green.

S: You know what, for us to have that cash – whether it’s $28,000 or $300,000 – that’s a big range, but the only reason we would have had chunks of cash in the bank is because the labor at Last Days – we had people working six days a week, 10-12 hours a day, not getting paid anything, or getting a tiny little stipend, or pocket change.

T: And I have to add this little story in because I don’t think I’ve told it before. At the time that all this cash was flowing in – I think you talk about how he bought air conditioned tractors – we were rationed on certain food items, daily. Orange juice and milk was one of those. So we had to keep a little index card and if we ever had a half a glass of juice or a glass of milk that was not part of our daily ration, we had to pay for that. We had to record that on an index card and tally that up every month and pay the ministry for the juice and milk that we were drinking, from the hours that we were working that we weren’t getting paid for.

S: I know! Oh my gosh.

T: The thing about that is it was such a control mechanism over my life. I has so much guilt every month because I was like, am I stealing from the ministry, did I have a glass of milk and not record it, so I would always try and round up and pay more.

S: And if, if the whole ministry was existing on a tight budget that would be one thing…

T: Correct.

S: But there’s tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to give away and there’s lots of money for air strips and lots of money for airplanes – okay, I’m going down that road again.

T: But it’s the heart of how you view your people, right? I know you say Keith was generous, and I know there was a time where Melody was at the home. I recall a story – I don’t know if you’ll remember it – from you and your ex talking about how Melody in particular really resented that we all felt like we should get unlimited orange juice or milk. That was actually a topic at a leadership meeting.

S: Ohhh right. I remember that. I remember that, yeah. Well, whether it was $28,000 like the book says, for the Panama Canal crossing, the fees – which that would be $90,000 in today’s money – or whether it was this $200 to $300,000 to fill the gas tanks for the Anastasis. By the way, did I ever tell you that we actually toured and stayed on the Anastasis in our European trip with Keith and Mel?

T: I think I remember that when you guys came back and reported from that trip.

S: Yeah, they were at the tail end of the whole refurbishing, but it hadn’t sailed yet, so another little side note. Regardless of how much money it was, or what exactly it was used for, I think about the Mercy Ships and it goes back to that same sort of thing. Yes they are offering medical help and it is legitimate good work that makes a huge difference in the qualify of life for the people in the here and now, here on earth. But the real agenda is to convert them to believe what the YWAMers think they should believe. I know they’re separate from YWAM now, but it really is still the same core thing. It’s like a timeshare visit – oh come on, we’re going to give you this wonderful weekend getaway, not because we care about you but because we want to sell you something.

T: That is so true. That is so similar. Oh wow. One of the things I realized too that she never mentioned in this interview. You have this whole story looking back with rose colored glasses, she never mentions her failed marriage, the divorce that she had, and anything that she learned from that. I thought that was a very interesting edit that didn’t make it into her interview.

S: This, Tracey, this is where I’ve got these feels. These big, bigtime feels. I mean, I do feel sad for her. I feel sorry for her. We both know the agonizing pain of a broken relationship and a divorce. We both went through it. Not fun. Awful, awful.

T: Spoiler alert: Sharon, you and I are going to do a deep dive into a series on divorce. Stay tuned for that.

S: Alright, but I am also fucking, fucking furious with her, at her silence and her hypocrisy. She continues to inflict condemnation on Christians who divorce. She encourages people to stay in broken, horrible, unhappy, abusive marriages. She offers no consolation to those who feel they have failed. And why? Why not be honest and transparent? Melody, why won’t you talk about going through this divorce? Why won’t you talk about it? I’m just like – what are you trying to hide? Do you feel shame? Do you feel fear? Do you feel that you failed, but let’s just deny it? Of course I’m sure she’s talked with people in private, but you are fucking promoting don’t get a divorce literature, that you’re selling, that you’re making money off of, that you’re telling all these other poor people, and they’re struggling and you just keep your mouth shut about it and pretend it’s all okay? I’m sorry, this just pisses me off beyond words I can come up with.

T: Yep. Yep, yep, yep. That’s what’s pervasive in this sphere that we do find so objectionable. I’ve talked about, in episode 20 when I talk about being upset with the church, they edit out and refuse to address any of the things that they feel they have failed at. One of the things I wondered when you mentioned is she ashamed, is she embarrassed, I’m sure she is. I think back to the Anastasis in the story, she talks about this guy who was going to fill the Anastasis gas tank up.

S: Oh yeah, he was telling YWAM at the time that he was going to give all this money.

T: Yes, it actually reminded me of some of the characters that would be round Mike Bickle at the time because I think he had a big personality and he was really seen by Youth With A Mission as some great philanthropist, and he was going to give a huge chunk of it also to LDM, and…

S: Wait, wait, you said Mike Bickle?

T: I said, if you followed the prophets of Kansas City, Mike Bickle would hang out with Bob Jones (who is not the Bob Jones of Bob Jones University), but in the telling of this story they seemed very similar in their sleaziness and boisterousness, and not having the real character behind what they were promising. Melody freely indicates that she did not see him as a fraud.

S: Mmhmm. But Keith did. Keith saw that the guy was sleazy and didn’t believe him when he was promising to give money, right?

T: Yes. Keith did. That’s what – if you follow (not to go down that rabbit hole too much) but IHOP Kansas City, if you start to look live to some of those things, it’s obvious to most people that there is something not right with these people. And so, later – and most people don’t know this story because Melody has stayed silent on it – she got sadly taken by another conman who would then be her short-lived husband Andy Seawright – we can say his name right, Sharon?

S: We’re going to say it. And it wasn’t short-lived, it went on for years. It went on for years, but I think it went bad very quickly. Yet at the time, all the announcements about it, she was so sure. God had told her. God – this was a match made in heaven, and all the YWAM leadership affirms this is God’s will, this is God’s will.

T: Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. And that is part of (I think) why that gets edited out in these types of stories, and it gets edited out of other people’s testimony, because that cognitive dissonance – they cannot square this with the stuff they believed, and lived experience. So instead of allowing that to really break you down and have you face it, they just edit it out.

S: Right. Just pretend it never happened.

T: Which brings us to – this is only our second bucket.

S: Holy shit.

[laughter]

T: I was sure there was going to be a three in front of that.

S: Bucket two.

T: And this is the hard one, it’s that personal pain and trauma. So Melody talks about how she goes out to California for the Anastasis arrival, and that was previously scheduled to be Keith Green meeting the Anastasis, to which he made a generous donation. All the YWAM leaders are there, and she talks about her deep relationship – I think this probably meant a lot to her since it happened so quicky, within weeks of the plane crash.

S: Mmhmm, yeah. I mean, the human compassion for her loss and suffering – I’m sure she got support and shoulders to cry on, and arms to hold her, and that is so important. We need to be connected when we are in times of great grief, and at the same time…

T: And…

S: And, YWAM was absolutely coveting, and I think manipulating for their own benefit, building their own kingdom. So it’s very interesting timing when the question comes up in that whole swirl of fear and trauma that we’re all going through – okay, who should lead Last Days? I’m just starting to wonder about the timeline. Was this right after her visit to California Mercy Ships, and did the YWAM leadership start stoking it then and there?

T: Oh yes.

S: So there’s another aspect of dealing with the pain and the trauma. Alright, so Keith was a bully. He was overbearing, and Melody was absolutely under his control. I mean, you have the belief system of the wife submitting, and all that, but Keith was on steroids, male dominance. It makes total sense to me that she wouldn’t want to ever be under that again. I mean, you and I Tracey, our marriages, our first husbands were different than Keith, mine had some same strong, intolerant type of personality and behavior, but both of us are like, we got out from under that. We stepped away from our belief system, but there ain’t no way in hell we’re going back under the control of another human being. Just not going to do it again. So I get that for her. I get that she would never want to be under that kind of control, and my now ex-husband, at the time many people looked to him as being the natural next leader for Last Days but he had some very similar personality traits. You know, the black and white, the harsh, the judgemental, so I have this sense that her need to be the leader and get control was more about not wanting to be abused anymore than it was some sense of calling or aptitude for actual leadership of this organization.

T: Oh yeah. And as we’re talking about this just now, to think about the most vulnerable time in her life, and everything we’ve learned about grooming and exploitation, of which we now also know that Youth With A Mission was masterful at that. Loren Cunningham was masterful at that. They absolutely pounced on her vulnerability here.

S: Yeah, they did.

T: And I think you’re exactly right. I think they also were aware of some of Keith’s foibles and were able to really swoop in. I never really put that together about this visit to California just two weeks after the plane crash.

S: Yeah, me either. That was new insight for me, listening to this interview.

T: Mmhmm. And how absolutely that’s the classic sign of a manipulator, is to exploit that vulnerability. As we’ll go on, she suffered tremendously for that choice, and of course those under her, we suffered as well.

S: Mmhmm. So you know Tracey, the things that happened after that, they really do fall in the category of this pain and trauma, but instead of addressing that and working through it in a healthy way, it becomes this pivot point to double down on Keith’s message and the sold out for Jesus, Jesus only, Jesus always. I think that’s the unhealthy – well there’s so much that’s unhealthy.

T: Yes.

S: But that was the coping mechanism she used, rather than some self-reflection and honesty. And I get it, you and I – we did the same thing, but I think this is where we can really look at how that happened for her, right?

T: Yes, it’s that point of vulnerability, we talk about you and I having our childhood trauma, that was our entry way into that message, and then of course Youth With A Mission is not quite as controlling of an aspect as Keith was, and just bolstering her up to be this godly leader, and she does double down. When I heard the whole interview, I thought one of what I would call an insight that just seemed to jump out at me, she had talked about when Keith tried to lead her to Jesus and how she really wrestled with betraying her own Judaism, because she was raised Jewish, and how that was such an important aspect of her identity, and it was a real struggle. I thought about where she’s landed now, and it struck me. I think in all this, when she decided to double down,  for her to have those cracks we all have, to really face those and address those, I think she’s going to wrestle with that sense of betraying Keith because he is known as this icon of Evangelicalism, and also betraying Jesus, that she would not be able to face those things for fear she would be disloyal. I got it, I understood that internal turmoil and wrestling.

S: Something just occurred to me with what you’re saying. I have a very close friend who had a parent die when they were in their early teens. That would be a very traumatic thing. But as time has gone on, this person has been able to look back – with the help of a therapist also, but things that happened in that family, both before the parent died and after the parent died, with the remaining parent, were really, really emotionally abusive. I mean, horrible. And it’s been really hard for my friend to be able to look at and say yes, my parent did me harm. Because that parent is dead and it feels disloyal. It feels like I’m a bad person – you don’t speak ill of the dead. And it never occurred to me, but there may be that aspect, kind of like oh my god, chains reaching out from Keith’s grave that Melody is still entangled in and can’t get free of, because he’s dead.

T: Yeah, because he’s dead, and reinforced by the Youth With A Mission leaders who basically say this is now your purpose, this is your purpose out of all of that. How do you face that Sharon? How do you basically let that all fall away? It’s tough.

S: It’s tough. It’s very, very tough. One of the things she was talking about in the interview was about feeling afraid for her kids to go on the plane, and I thought that was kind of interesting. She said it in a way that was different than what she said in the book all those years ago. What do you think on that?

T: I think that’s exactly right, that also was something I noticed. We talked earlier about that cognitive dissonance, that you’ll hear her say something that I think is a reflection of really what’s happening, and then she will double down to give that reason of why it’s Jesus. I think there may have been something in her that was similar to what you shared Sharon, in episode 14 of the plane crash. You just laid it out, as far as many people didn’t trust him in the plane, they didn’t want him near the pilot seat, they understood there was a recklessness about him, and deep down that was maybe something that was resonating in her, I don’t know that I want my kids to go on a plane with Keith, which would be very, very, very hard to live with. But I think she was trained and has been trained to push that voice down and say no, I’m being silly, and all the stuff we also learned. I noticed that also in her No Compromise book, when she talks about Keith playing to her for the first time, the song to Josiah and listeners, if you don’t know that we’ll put a link to it. I know that I’ve listened to that recently and it’s a terrible song. It’s a terrible song for your child to basically be hated by the world and beaten up, and persecuted and martyred for Jesus.

S: And yet we’re going to cheer that, because that is the ultimate, isn’t it?

T: So cheer that. So I think she kind of shares, she was a little bit horrified by that song (as a mother’s heart would be) and immediately she pushed that down. I’m not spiritual enough, the spiritual feelings would be – so I see Melody giving us glimpses of those cracks, and how she’s filling them in as fast as they happen, with the brainwashing, ultimately.

S: In the book – I went back, because something she said in the interview, I was like, is that what I remember reading in the book? In the book she seems to indicate that Keith is the one who brought it all up, before they go out to the plane. He says, if I don’t come back – whatever, raise the kids to be godly women or something like that. But in this interview, this last October interview, she says that she asked it, and kind of hinting that there was a significant premonition, or she’s suspicious. Again I went back to the transcript of the interview, I went back and found the section in No Compromise, and yeah they don’t really jive. Why? We can speculate, there’s also the part of me that’s why does it matter? It doesn’t matter. The difference between what she says in the book and what she says now – all of us, including you and me Tracey, our memories shift. They’re never totally accurate. Also they can often morph because of the story that we want to tell ourselves, what we want to believe is true, and what will help us to cope and feel better about ourselves, or better about our belief systems.

T: Yes. And I hear throughout this interview where I talk about that cognitive dissonance being so palpable, I hear her vacillating in that throughout the interview. This is so terrible, it’s so painful, but God had a purpose. I see her doing that back and forth, and our hope is at some point she will give herself permission, go to counselling and get permission, because I think as those cracks really start to allow to form, I think she would find some more freedom than she has currently.

S: I know she would. I know she would. I wish that for her. I hope that for her. She mentions the giant raindrops and the sense of God’s presence, and God crying, and as you’ve said before…

T: That’s something that Paul talks about in our episode on the plane crash in his memories. We were all noticing that, and we were looking for signs. It makes sense that in one of our moments of deepest grief we’re looking. We’re looking for comfort, right?

S: Yeah, you do. You do. And she also said what so many Christians say in the face of tragedy; God is in control, all our days are counted, the hair on your head is numbered, but here’s the cognitive dissonance. I mean, you can’t heal, because if God’s in control then this is what he wanted? He wanted this, or he didn’t want this? Which is it? It’s a crazy maker.

T: It is, and I think with her older, wiser self, I can hear that battle more than I’ve heard in other interviews, I’ll just say that.

S: Yes.

T: And I get it. We’ve heard all kinds of crazy things that the Christian community has said about why God had to take Keith Green. And if you’re the one that lost your children and your husband – those are shit answers. They’re just shit answers.

S: They are!

T: So then you have to go okay, but why? Why??

S: Ugh.

T: I think in the end, because she was thrust at the helm of things which was really bad for her – the age all hurt people hurt people, we have had a lot of grace and understanding of that, but there was a whole ministry that ended up bearing a lot of that hurt that wasn’t healed in her.

S: Yeah. She says in the interview – she talks about having been mad for a very long time, but I don’t think she said who she was mad at. She used the words, my life was ruined. I was stunned to hear her say that – my life was ruined.

T: Yes. That’s where we’re saying listeners, we’ve heard some explanations of that time in this interview that we’ve never heard before. Of course, we were living with her during this time so we could see her struggling. We could see the pain. If I had a chart to write up I would say she is angry, and yet again, it’s like she’s not allowed to be angry. She’s got to get up on that stage. I know that Sharon, you’re the first one to say she also wanted that, but I think we can understand that she was also groomed. She was groomed that this gave her purpose to handle all of that, and when she wasn’t on that stage, and when she wasn’t being buoyed up by that leadership, she was an angry woman who was really struggling to find healing and took it out on a lot of us.

S: Yeah, I want to stay on that thing of anger for just a little bit. She said it took her three years to stop crying every single day.

T: Every day.

S: That is grief. That is incredible grief, but the problem is she’s got this anger and in the belief system, you have no right to be angry. God’s in control, right? God will do his will.

T: Correct.

S: So you can’t be angry at God, and Keith is dead so you can’t be angry at him, although she has admitted being angry at Keith – but ultimately you can’t be angry because God has allowed this for his higher purpose and glory. That’s what’s so fucked up about it. It doesn’t let her experience the reality of her grief and anger in the way she should. The fact is, her husband did a fucking stupid thing and killed himself and their two children. Keith did that. Keith did that. But she just can’t have the full human experience, because she’s got to wrap it all up in this I love Jesus stuff and I want to obey Jesus, and that’s where my heart breaks for her. That’s where my heart just hurts for what she’s gone through.

T: Yep. I think there were some of us watching on – in the environment we were in you can see this, as people talking about the IHOP KC environment as well, that you can’t talk right, the silent environment because you’ll be accused of gossiping so you have to hold these things and not share them because your heart is wrong, but later on as many of us have been able to share what we felt in the past, is, she should have stepped down. That’s where I personally have anger at Youth With A Mission and the leaders, because at the time I’m like oh, they’re all just believing what they believe. I am absolutely convinced that they knew what they were doing and I am angry. I’m angry they exploited this woman, they exploited her grief, they exploited her children. You’re making these children go on tour to retell this story over and over again. That’s where this whole Christendom begins to – you’ve got to save the institution at the price of the people.

S: Mmhmm. In the interview she also talks about the glorious, glorious effort for missions, right? The two year campaign that got 200,000 people into the mission field.

T: Do you notice who she does not mention when she talks about that?

S: Oh, who might that be?

[laughter]

T: Ho, staggering. I had to rewind it to make sure I hadn’t missed it.

S: Yep, so what we’re talking about folks is she doesn’t mention YWAM. Youth With A Mission. She doesn’t mention that at all in this whole thing about the push for missions. I don’t know – did they edit it out? Did the podcaster edit it out, or did she not say it? There were other things she used to gush about that she doesn’t anymore, right?

T: Yep, she used to gush about IHOP KC. She used to gush about Teen Mania which is still on her website, and she needs to be told to that that down, because they’re so ripe with scandal she shouldn’t have that up. But I guess there was a little part of me that was a crack of hope – has she seen some of the toxicity that comes from those organizations and has edited that? I don’t know.

S: Well, not based on what she was saying publicly in July of 2022 at the plane crash anniversary, but remember that was a little over a year from that time to this interview, so maybe there are some little cracks happening. Maybe there are. That would be really wonderful.

T: That would be great. What I thought was interesting too is I think she in hindsight now realizes the community that she had at Last Days Ministries and I think kind of created a little bit at IHOP Kansas City as well. She was a single mom through that, and all of the extra help that she had – we now would look back at that as definitely exploiting the labor that was there, and mistreatment.

S: That wasn’t community friend help. That was indentured servitude. The poor girls that had to go down there and be her housekeeper and her nanny and her babysitter. I’m sorry. That just…

T: Did you hear how she painted it though?

S: As if all these people – it was like your next door neighbors coming to you with a covered dish to help you grieve. I’m like no, no, they were indentured servants that were barely getting paid and they were told this was what they had to do. That’s really what happened. I’m sorry.

T: And mistreated along the way. Mistreated and resented along the way, which again – we say this over and over again. We get the grief, but there’s no excuse for that, and that’s why when she looks back – and I guess grief in certain types of our memory does this  to us – she’s edited out all the discord and the pain, and I know people who actually shared with her how it was, and just talked about how she does recognize that she probably could have never made it through that time without that community. But she definitely paints it as hey, we all just need that community that can reach out and help us during these times.

S: Mmhmm. Yeah. She also talks about how – and this is part of the thing that we should be there as humans for one another, to help one another, to offer support – to be practical, to stay in their lives, and it takes years not months and she’s saying you need to walk with people who experience trauma. That is true. She also says about Christians – they think if they pray hard enough it’ll all be okay.

T: Wow.

S: More people don’t get healed than get healed, and you can fast and pray but the person still dies, and then we think that God let us down. We’re trying to manipulate God. And that Tracey, was like – I don’t know. Which way is she coming from. It was just really weird, right?

T: Exactly!

S: Again, it’s that cognitive dissonance because this idea that by praying we’re trying to manipulate God? Wait a second – don’t you say that your bible tells you to ask God for things? It’s like a weird reversing of victim and offender, and I think it’s more accurate that prayer manipulates us. Prayer manipulates people. You ask for whatever it is – the healing or whatever, and when it doesn’t happen then we have to question ourselves. Did we ask for the wrong thing? Did we not ask in the right way? Are we not pure enough? Is God petty? I mean, why does God withhold from us when we’re faithful, with no explanation?

T: With no explanation.

S: You’ve got that scripture; if you have faith like a mustard seed you shall say to this mountain be cast into the sea and it shall be done. So when it doesn’t happen, the logical explanation is that your faith is so pathetic it wasn’t even as big as a fucking little mustard seed. For our non-religious listeners, so you know, that’s a scripture reference, and a mustard seed is about 1mm in diameter, so it’s the same size as a poppy seed on your morning bagel. Yeah, pretty tiny.

T: Yeah, it is pretty tiny. Many of us have had to look it up to find out – God, after 25 years do I still not have faith as big as a mustard seed? When is this going to happen? But this was so telling; I personally (and I granted, listeners, may be reading into this more than was there), but this to me seemed almost like a direct chastisement of International House of Prayer, Kansas City, because this is so much of what they preach and teach. It’s almost like she’s now come to the point in her life of hey, all of that was basically a load of croc, but she doesn’t know what to do with that.

S: She can’t call bullshit. She can’t say it’s bullshit.

T: You can’t. So then she tries to leave it, but then she goes back to the double downing, but it did give me a little bit of hope of like, yeah, Melody – it’s not like what half of your – it’s not even half. All of your magazine newsletters preach. It’s like, it doesn’t work that way. And I know there’s a part of you that sees that, and you just gotta let the cracks keep coming.

S: Yep. Let them come. That other thing about the whole unanswered prayer thing is it’s like you’re in a super abusive relationship. Imagine if a spouse required you to beg and beg, and left hanging – maybe they will, maybe they won’t, despite how desperate your heart is? We would say that’s one sick motherfucker and you’ve got to get out of that relationship, right?

T: Yes, we would now, but Sharon we were so conditioned to it!

S: Oh, we were.

T: One of our dear listeners in our Facebook community recently shared – you know that post that originated from The Naked Pastor (his comics are so great, by the way)…

S: We’ll put a link for him too…

T: Yes we will. So it’s a drawing of a father sitting in an armchair and his young child standing next to him, looking up, and the title above it says How a Child Should Not talk to his Father. So I think you’re expecting curse words or some disrespect coming out, but it’s this little child saying dear father, I am unworthy to be called your child, let me be a servant to do your will. Use me as your instrument, take my mind, take my heart, take my body, take my life. I’m nothing, so consume me for your purpose and your glory, even though I’m the worst person in the world.

[laughter]

S: That’s the truth of what we believed and how we prayed and how we behaved, and it’s so sad.

T: It’s so sad. And we would often rock – if you notice now, if you watch when they’re doing clips from churches you’ll see people rocking as they repeat those words, which I think definitely has some mental health stuff going on.

S: Yeah. At the same time, she was chastizing talking about Christians who cast their faith aside when God doesn’t answer their prayer. We need to know God does his will, he is in control. And Tracey, we’re right back to that whole cognitive dissonance. What the fuck does that even mean? Was it or was it not God’s will to kill Josiah and Bethany in a fiery plane crash? If the answer is no, then your God is not all powerful. If the answer is yes, then holy shit. I get that it gives you some weird level of comfort to say God is in control, God is in control, God is in control, because it’s terrifying sometimes to think otherwise. But it just don’t work anymore, that’s for sure.

T: That was what was so interesting about this interview. Again, she almost is using what we would call deconstructive language; painting this story about how Christians should and shouldn’t be, and then she doubles down. She doubles down right back down there.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So she’s verbalizing her trauma and then she’s not quite there though, she doesn’t quite let the cracks work for her, but at one point she even references all of what she’s gone through. I don’t know if she meant to say it this way, but she said Jesus doesn’t really heal this. I don’t know if she was trying to say I have to wait till heaven, because that’s a certain understanding some people have, but that jumped out at me too. It’s like, wow, that to me is one of the foundational promises of even staying in this, and at this point I think she’s recognizing this is still a big, large part of her heart that just is not healed.

S: Right. So do you think that her omitting any references to Youth With A Mission and IHOP KC – is she now starting to minimize or move away from the quick miracle fixes that they preach, do you think?

T: I think she is.

S: That would be good. That would be good.

T: I don’t know the circles that she travels in now, but I think even maybe getting into some of the Messianic Christian kind of truth, which is maybe a little more conservative than the YWAM or IHOP KC doctrine that she might be coming back to more of those roots. Personally. I have nothing to base that on, listeners. It’s just my…

S: Your hope? Okay. Well, if we kind of start wrapping this up, I guess what I feel Tracey when I listened to that interview, and I went back and read a transcript of it as well, it just strikes me that despite some of the language and despite some of the upbeat inflections, I think Melody is pretty lonely. I really think she is. I also think of her overall life – we’re going on over 40 years since Keith died, and it’s going to come up on 50 years since she and Keith started out on this we got saved thing.

T: Oh my god.

S: Cos it was in what – 1975, so yeah. It’s almost 50 years.

T: Oh my god Sharon, that sounds so crazy.

S: I know, I think of that overall story line, that overall arc of your life, and I’m like wow – Melody, is this all you’ve got? Is this still all you’ve got? And I feel so sorry for her. I get that it would be so scary to think of shifting, to think of questioning, to think of being out, because one way or another there’s still kind of this tribe that she’s in, the long term support and starting over is so very, veery hard, and being alone is terrifying. Tracey, I want to say something from my heart and it may sound totally corny but you’re just gonna have to bear with me here. Mel, you would not be alone. There are so many people who have hearts that are full of compassion for you. Of real love, who know what real love is when it’s not wrapped and cloaked in a belief system that says you have to. People who would love to see you find a deeper healing, and who would love to see you be your true authentic self, Mel. Not just the recycled widow of long-dead, music ego Keith Green. We have been where you are. We haven’t suffered all the things you’ve suffered, and the way you’ve suffered them, but we’ve gone through shit too, and we’ve done things in the name of Christianity for which we are ashamed, and we’ve hurt people. We’ve hurt people in pursuit of this misguided quest for holiness. We’ve wrestled with all those things, and I can tell you that we have found a love, a peace, a joy, and a healing beyond what we could have ever dreamed possible. You’re right, Jesus doesn’t heal this, but when we find our true selves we heal ourselves. We’re here for you. We would sit with you, cry with you, I’ll get on a plane and fly out to  California and walk with you, and love with you. That’s my heart to you, Melody, and I hope you can hear it.