This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 030 – How We Handle the Holidays, Then & Now

December 13^th, 2023

T: Happy December! I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters! Sharon, I was so inspired by our Flamy Grant Christmas special that I thought it would be really important to unpack in more detail a few of the topics that we just lightly touched on in that episode.

S: Yes! Yes. So we know this time of year can be a real mixed bag – so many different emotions. There’s the whole cultural and commercialized push for – you know – a Merry Christmas, and you started with happy December. I know our Brit friends say happy Christmas rather than merry. How about the Aussies? Do you know? I mean what would Troy and Brian say? How would they do it?

T: Well, we might have to ask them, but I did look it up, so if Google is correct the official stat is 85% of Aussies prefer to say Merry Christmas than other greetings. So we’ll have to confirm with them to see if they concur.

S: So they’re more following America than the Brits.

T: [singing] America… – yes.

S: Alright, so there’s that whole commercialized Merry Christmas thing. Then there’s a more generalized Joy To The World and Peace on Earth. Those sentiments can come from a religious root, or also just good and decent human beings that just care about others. That can be part of the sentiment of the season. And then of course, there is the whole aspect of the emphasis on the baby Jesus story.

T: And Sweet Baby Jesus! Sweet Baby Jesus?

S: Oh yes, Sweet Baby Jesus. That’s a lot of different things and any one of them is a lot, but put them all together and it can get overwhelming for a lot of people.

T: Very overwhelming, and that’s one of the reasons I thought it would be great if we could get together and kind of have like, a little fire chat where we can share a little bit of our experience.

S: A fire chat? Fire?

T: A little fire chat.

S: Oh you mean like fireside chat.

T: Did I not say fireside chat?

S: No, you said fire chat.

[laughter]

S: Fireside, I like that but does that mean now I’ve got to find some crackling fire sound effect to edit into here?

T: Oh yeah, that would be great. If we run video we could have flames coming. Up. And of course, you’d have to do sound effects, because you’re in Florida and I don’t think you have any fires this time of year, do you.

S: Nope. Just the hellfire that I’m falling into.

T: I know we mention it and we kind of make jokes on it, but as I was thinking of this, we’ve had decades of holidays, Sharon.

S: Oh my god.

T: Decades of holiday seasons.

S: I hadn’t thought about it like that.

T: By the time we are where we’re at, we have experienced the ups and downs that come with every one of those stages that we were in at the holiday time. I know for me as a child, and you too with alcoholic parents, then the time of being in the cult commune, the time of being in severe fundamentalism where there’s no money, we were in marriages having kids, then we were out of marriages then going through divorces, and when you put all that together, there’s been a lot of emotional experiences that we have had.

S: Yeah, it’s a lot.

T: So when we were doing the Flamy Grant Christmas special, thinking of our listeners out there – hey, whatever you may be feeling this holiday season, know that you’re on a journey and what you’re feeling this holiday season may not be what you feel in future holiday seasons. We just wanted to have a chance to maybe be a point of reference, hopefully be a point of encouragement just to understand what you may be going through, and share what we’ve had to go through.

S: Yeah. Because we’ve experienced so much of it Tracey; the happy, the sad, heart wrenching, hopeful – there’s a lot. There is a lot.

T: Mmhmm.

S: There’s also a number of different pain points that I think people experience. Some are common to all people, regardless of your religious background or trauma history or whatever, it’s just kind of the human condition. There’s winter blues, for those especially who live in the north part of the country, or wherever else you are in the world, some of you it might be real south, but the Seasonal Affective Disorder, with far less daylight and lots more darkness…

T: Yeah, the people who need lots of fires in their fireplaces.

S: Yeah. And then I think we’ve all got to one degree or another, there are family dynamics. The family of origin, the extended family, some of those come with a shit ton of drama, and that’s hard no matter who you are or what your background. Those things hit all of us. But for those who have deconstructed their faith – whether it’s fully or you’re still in the process, or some of you listening may be just beginning to question the things you’ve believed; there’s some added potential difficulties. For those of us who used to be all in on this Jesus is the only reason for the season – we now are faced with rethinking what these holidays mean to us at this point. I think a lot of folks can struggle with feelings of false guilt, and shame, and fear, and that really springs out of a core belief that we’ve been disloyal, and we’re betraying God if we’re not doing what we used to do during these holidays. And then also, if you’ve got family members or friends who are still fully committed to the fundamentalist beliefs, or they’re evangelical, there’s all that added pressure of not wanting to disappoint them, or you can become the target of their disapproval, subtle disapproval, or even just outright attacks. And that’s really tough.

T: Ohh yes, that’s really tough. So it can be any one of those things or a combination of all of that, so we’re here to tell you there’s not one right way to do this season.

S: Yeah. And right near the end of our talk with Flamy Grant – if you guys haven’t heard it, go back and listen – we mentioned an article that was published by our former cult commune, Last Days Ministries, an article entitled Christmas Mourning, written by the world renowned Christian musician Keith Green, but there’s a twist. That morning is with a u, as in deep sorrow and lamentation.

T: Yes, and you did try to describe the picture, the artwork that’s on the front of that article, and you did a great job of it. You aptly described this Santa Claus that’s got tears rolling down his cheeks, weeping at the foot of the cross that Jesus is still nailed to.

S: Still nailed to!

T: So I wanted to start there, because that article and that approach to Christmas that Keith had printed had such a profound impact on how I started to live out my Christmas holiday seasons as a Christian.

S: Mmhmm. How about I do the honors and read a little bit from that article? Keith starts out: I’ll never forget the incredible joy and expectation of Christmas. Our house smelled like a Douglas fir. The tinsel and ornaments sparkled in the colored lights. Friends and relatives came to visit, all with smiles and laughter, and all with presents. The season was full of life, warmth, and giving. They are the very best memories of my childhood. The air outside was cold and crisp, and inside, always the smell of something baking. If anyone asked me to describe joy in one word, it would have been Christmas.

T: Oh my gosh. So, so far so good, listeners, right? You read that, and it’s like, yes I can relate to that. I would say that my family also really tried to incorporate this feeling of Christmas in our household, and I loved the holiday. I guess when I re-read this article I’m like oh my god, this opening paragraph – you know that something’s about to fall. There’s a shoe about to fall, right? You’re like, that’s awesome! What’s wrong with this? But in good Keith Green fashion, and god – we just couldn’t enjoy anything, could we Sharon.

S: Nope.

T: He was going to have to smash that whole idyllic scene that he just painted, and basically lay on some heavy guilt.

S: Yep.

T: So go on.

S: Yeah. Okay. So here’s how Keith continues. I’ve heard a lot of talk, especially by Christians about the true meaning of Christmas. I ‘ve seen Christians go in for all the trappings and trimmings. They spend hours, even days, in department stores trying to figure out what to buy for friends and relatives who already have everything they need. Sitting around the tree and watching nervously while someone opens up the present you got them, as they try to look surprized and squeal with delight. Parents teaching their young what they call a ‘harmless fairly tale’ – the story of Santa and how ‘he’s going to bring you lots of presents so you better be good’. And all the while, a world full of starving, deprived people are silently, invisibly looking in through your living room window begging for a scrap of food, a rag to keep them from shivering to death, and an answer to their misery, suffering and oppressing.

T: Phewwww.

S: Oh my god yeah. What a visual. When you read this original article in the newsletter/magazine, or in the tract that was reprinted, you did not have to use your imagination, because there was an illustration that went along with that text. It’s this view from inside a cosy house; you can see the edge of a decorated Christmas tree on the right side, then there’s this window in the center looking to the outside. I think that window may have had frost or icicles on it or something, so clearly it’s cold outside. As you look through that window you see a thin, little Asian boy, bare chested, looking so sad as he gazes in through the window.

T: Sharon, that wrecked me. I’m just going to tell you that I was so overcome with that sense of condemnation and guilt. Already that was something that was churning in my heart, and it’s like, okay, how can we ever have any festivities or anything when you know that there’s some hungry child that’s going to be staring at you through the festivities?

S: Hey, you know something I just remembered as I was reading that? That line that says a world full of starving, deprived people – I remember, because I did a lot the proof reading, sometimes even all of the proof reading, and originally Keith wrote starving, depraved people are silently, invisibly looking. I went to him and I said Keith, do you really mean depraved? Don’t you mean deprived? And I think he was like, well what’s the difference. They’re all depraved too.

T: Oh my god.

S: I was like, I think it would probably be better if you like, said deprived in this situation. Like I said, I haven’t thought of that for decades. It just popped into my mind.

T: Good edit! That opens up even more terrible ideas

S: Okay. I interrupted you. Continue on, my dear.

T: No, I was just saying, before I got married and had a family as a single person that was something I could deny myself, so whatever meager money I got for gifts, I would save it up and try to send it away. But then once I got married and had my own children, I began to wrestle. Am I supposed to be giving to these supposedly more needy children staring in my window when I have my own kids? How do I have them have a childhood where they have these warm memories of family togetherness and that excitement and expectation. It ended up being a battle. I would say this is something that I would say while I was married, never really got – I don’t know – settled, because my husband at the time, he was also from Last Days and he was also raised very similarly to me, but I think he had a tension with the holiday. I think there was just this battle of him feeling the pressure of the financial drain, and us feeling guilty – should we celebrate, should we not celebrate. That kind of started out my life with my kids. Thanks to good old Keith Green.

S: Man.

T: I think at one point I just – okay, I’ve got to give into this. If the whole world is going to celebrate this as the birth of Jesus, then I’m going to give in and kind of just go from that aspect, but I would say it was never really settled. There was always an inner battle in both of us.

S: Mmhmm.

T: What was your relationship to the holidays?

S: Well, as a child – I guess, like most American children – well, let’s say most middle-class and upper American children, I looked forward to it. the presents, the materialism. My family was fairly wealthy; my dad was a doctor, so it was a happy time, but it was all about what am I going to get. Then once I was at Last Days and then married, definitely the emphasis was like what you said. We’re going to bring the focus back onto God’s gift of his son, the baby Jesus.

T: Sweet Baby Jesus.

S: Oh my god. Did you ever see the movie with Will Ferrell, Talladega Nights?

T: Yeah, isn’t that the one with the Sweet Baby Jesus? Dear Sweet Baby Jesus – I think they’re around the table, and he just goes on, and on, and on.

S: He’s like, Dear Lord Baby Jesus – he’s talking about, I like the baby Jesus best.

[laughter]

S: We’ll put it in the show notes. It makes me crack up.

T: I love that too.

S: Dear Lord Baby Jesus.

[laughter]

T: But what he brings out in this Christmas Mourning article is he debunks the idea that Jesus was even born in December. He basically says there’s no place for this commercialization, there’s no place for this family happy time – and also, Jesus wasn’t even born then so it’s like, okay. What do we do now?

S: It was co-opting the pagan Winter Solstice, or other holidays and the whole Constantine – that’s a whole other thing, but yeah. Of course he wasn’t born in December. So getting back to …

T: Dear Sweet Baby Jesus.

S: [laughing]

T: You can always segue way anything by saying Dear Sweet Baby Jesus.

S: But it’s not sweet. He doesn’t say sweet, he says Dear Lord Baby Jesus.

T: Are you sure he doesn’t say that? Okay, I’ve gotta look that up, because in my head I must have…

S: You’re going to have to look it up, yeah. That’s how things get twisted, Tracey! That’s how the literal word of God gets polluted and corrupted, because you think you remember.

T: Ugh, so true.

[laughter]

S: Alright, alright, let me bring this thing back. So your question was, what was Christmas like, how did it change with marriage and kids. As we had kids, it was a blend of several things. We definitely were into the commercialized gift giving, sometimes that was with extended family as well. I think my ex-husband had a different mindset than yours did. Mine was pretty free with spending, and had no problem going into debt. I was the one who kind of reined things back in that area. Of course we did have the nativity emphasis. We read the bible story of Jesus’ birth to our kids over and over. We had a little nativity creche. We talked about trying to make it about Jesus, so it was a blend.

T: So with that – and I think that’s why there was a very weird dichotomy in my own literal brain, because I knew he wasn’t born in December; I knew that if everything I was trying to serve Jesus, this would be the last way he would want his birthday to be celebrated, so then we’re trying to incorporate – this is all about Jesus, this all about Jesus, and in my head it’s like, it’s really not all about Jesus!

S: Right.

T: There’s so much that’s not about Jesus. So when you were doing the whole nativity, did you guys try to address that at all?

S: Um…I don’t know. I do remember us being really clear with our kids that Santa is just pretend, but Jesus is real. I remember that was really – in fact, I’ve got video of one of my twins, talking about how he saw Santa at his preschool. Santa comes in, and he’s like Santa’s real! I saw him, he’s real! I saw him. The mindset that we’re going to convince kids of this one story of Santa that yeah, it’s totally fake, it’s a lie and it’s not true, and this Jesus story – oh yeah, this is totally true. There’s more literal evidence that Santa’s real because you see people dressed up as him.

T: Correct.

S: It’s a conundrum Tracey. It’s a weird, weird set of conflicting ideas that to someone who never grew up in a Christian culture, would think this is some crazy fucked up shit.

T: Right. And not to mention – and we’ll go into it in another episode in future times – but how in many ways we did steal the magic from our children. I know I have stolen some magic from my children because it was so important for me to make sure they knew what was right, and what was not right. What was real, and what was pretend. And of course, the nativity story – whether it happened in December, or whether it happened in October or September, or whenever the scholars put it, we did believe that that was real.

S: Yep. We did. So why don’t we talk about it a bit. I think that there’s a real, perverse power that this story of the virgin birth – you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son – that story is the beginning of a stranglehold that it has had on so many of us. Also kind of thinking alright, how can we start to strip away some of that power? Let’s start with the virgin birth. It really is mythology, Tracey!

T: It’s such mythology.

S: If you go in and look at stories from ancient Egypt and Greece and Rome and other Eastern and Asian cultures as well, there are so many flood stories, virgin births – all kinds of these miraculous things. Even resurrections. And it’s so weird how – okay, but the Christian one, all of that is true and literal. But all the rest of this is obviously not true, it’s total lies. And it’s just crazy, the intellectual whiplash that you have to have to give credibility to the Jesus story, and discount all the others.

T: And discount all the others – yes.

S: If you guys need help to get rid of and begin to kind of strip away the power of some of that bible stuff (I almost said bible shit), just go look up online. There’s lots of info you can find online and in the library. You can cross reference with scholarly writings so that you know it’s not just someone’s opinion, but it’s really based on experts, so that’s one thing. Another thing I’ve noticed is that when we started to question – and even sometimes, Tracey, after we let go of those beliefs – we’re still haunted with some feelings of guilt, shame and fear, and sometimes they can be overwhelming, and they’re all based on this sense that we’re being disloyal, or we’re betraying a God we once believed in.

T: That’s really important, and I think especially for a lot of our listeners who may be this is the first or second, or they’re really new in their deconstruction process, and all of culture is now going to throw in their face this nativity story.

S: Right.

T: And just recognizing what you’re calling out as having that sense of being disloyal. Because it was such an experiential relationship Sharon, and we started it so young.

S: Yeah, and we were all in. We were all in. We had a real relationship in our minds, in our imagination, but it was as real to us as anything else. And as much as I’d like to think that I’ve totally let go of that mythological narrative and all of its emotional impact and pull on me, I was actually surprized recently. I was feeling tinges of that false guilt – of course, my intellect rejects it, but my heart and emotions were so groomed and so conditioned to be fully controlled by it. I was watching a video link that you actually sent to me Tracey, it was late October, the leadership of the Forerunner Church, which is IHOP KC, so International House of Prayer, Kansas City. By now when this airs, most people will probably have heard of it. The leadership of that church was giving an explanation – actually, it was a non-explanation to the congregation about the Mike Bickle sexual abuse scandal that was just breaking. Maybe eight or ten minutes into this video, there’s this brave man who stands up, and he basically called bullshit on them. Just bullshit.

T: He actually used that word, yeah. I was so surprised.

S: He did! And then of course, the leaders are quickly oh, they’ve gotta shut this thing down, they’ve gotta close the meeting, and they ended it in prayer, and Tracey, it was the first time in a long, long time that I had seen or heard this type of prayer. Of course it used to seem so sincere and so real to me, and I used to pray that way too, but I’m hearing these leaders pray, and they’re saying Lord God, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit we just ask – they’re using these terms, and I could feel it trigger a little bit of that old, toxic shame and false guilt from my “unfaithfulness”. My disloyalty to this God. My disloyalty and betrayal of Jesus, and I don’t even believe in it anymore, right? So it’s just crazy, the hold, the emotional hold this has.

T: Yeah. I think whenever we were in that framing of prayer it was usually in repentance, right? We were probably feeling so unworthy and feeling like we’d betrayed God. I actually noticed that too, because like you, I have been out of the circles where they have that intense prayer. And I noticed it more from the repetitive of O dear God, Lord God we come to you Jesus, we just… and it was that repetitive way that reminded me of what I would call now, mental health issues. Anxiety and stuff that was so prevalent that I’m so far from, but I think it’s really interesting that it called up to you shame and guilt, because that’s probably when you used that form of prayer.

S: Yeah. Well, yeah, and the conditioning is so, so powerful.

T: So powerful.

S: So while I was contemplating this – and here’s one tip I just wanna give to everybody is when things come up for you, don’t judge yourself. Don’t condemn yourself. Look at it with curiosity. Take a step backwards and go, huh. I’m noticing this. Isn’t that interesting. I wonder what’s behind it. I wonder what I’m believing; I wonder what I’m thinking; I wonder what I’m feeling, and take time, and be gentle and respectful of yourself, and you’ll be surprized what you discover, and you’ll be surprized what the inner wisdom of your true self comes up with.

T: Oh, that’s so good. That so good, because I think in that conditioning I can hear the old voice inside of me that would say well, that’s proof of the Holy Spirit trying to bring conviction. We were conditioned for that. We didn’t give ourself permission to step back and question. It’s really important.

S: Yep. I pause, and I’m asking myself if I’m noticing I’m feeling this in my body. That’s the other thing folks. You’re going to feel things in your body, so becoming aware of your body and what’s happening is really key. It’s a real clue to pause, and then just say hmmm, what is this. So as I’m feeling this tension and this weirdness in my body, and this like, sense of oh no I’m a Judas, I’m a betrayer, my first thought when I got quiet was – seriously? Is a divine God-Baby Jesus, is that truly more plausible than a divine God-Baby Mohammed? Or a divine God-Baby name-a-Greek-God? When I thought about it that way – okay, is there reality here? Hmmm. Nope. It’s a hard stretch to say there is a great case for this, and then the next step, what I found was even more helpful was when it occurred to me okay, if I don’t believe this is real – and I truly don’t, I just got these old haunting things dragging on me – well, what if I replaced these names of Jesus and Father God, these labels about this mythical sky god that I don’t believe in anymore, if I just replaced them with something equally unreal. So how about praying with all sincerity to the Easter Bunny? Or to the Loch Ness Monster? Or to Big Foot? Just imagine, instead of watching these men pray to Jesus, I heard them say oh Lord Nessie, we just come before you tonight, and we ask you to hear our hearts. I mean, if you heard people praying to something that you knew wasn’t real, it would have no hold on you. That I found really helped me to see my shame for what it was – an absolutely false lie. And the ridiculousness of this – you know, praying to Nessie, or to Big Foot…

T: To Nessie. Dear Lord Nessie.

S: That’s right. I found it really helped me put into perspective and overcome that conditioned emotional response of guilt. Also Tracey, there’s some really solid precedent for this in the literature. As Professor Lupin taught us, to defeat a Boggart that is pretending to be something horrible, you just cast the spell Riddikulus and you turn it into something utterly preposterous!

T: Oh my god. Listeners, I know I had to really stretch that to a Harry Potter reference. Is there really a spell of Riddikulus?

S: Yeah! Riddikulus.

T: That’s not your take on the spell?

S: No, it’s called Riddikulus.

T: That’s so brilliant.

S: It is! You turn something that’s pretend but scary as hell, and you think of it in terms of something utterly, utterly ridiculous, and it breaks the spell.

T: Wow. Okay. That book really did have a profound impact on you, didn’t it. I really thought you made that up. I think there’s another spell I am aware of that expol or whatever.

S: Expelliarmus.

T: Yeah, that one. Oh that is great.

S: I’m just going to tell you woman; this is why you need to fucking read those books!

T: And it’s true, which is interesting because I do read mythologies and fairy tales, and I do love them. Kind of from your approach, mine is similar but a little bit different in that, one of the reasons I love fables and I love fairy tales; I never ever thought about taking them literally.

S: Right?

T: I never approach them and say that these are literal stories that are happening but it’s that gem of the deeper lesson that it’s teaching you. I often think of maybe in 100 years from now that all of this has died off, that we’ll say hey, 100 years ago there was a people that believed in this Prince of Peace that was coming to bring peace on the earth, and we’ll say oh, that’s a great thought. Right now it’s too close to home with the Baby Jesus in it. but really being able to – I think what you’re saying is take that power away from the literal conditioning. I think that’s really brilliant.

S: Yeah.

T: Mm mmmp hmmm. The other thing I just wanted to say is that there are so many lessons from these stories that you can take. One that’s been particularly powerful for me is the Tao of Nature, and really understanding winter time and what winter time does, and the lessons you can take from that. There are some great things you can take from this time, if – IF – like you, you can get rid of some of the ridiculousness of the severity of these literal stories.

S: Alright, that’s kind of how I think about what to do with that inner world  – the residuals of how the belief system has its hold on us and drags us down during the holiday season. Another really big part of holidays – obviously – are celebrations. We’re humans. We’re social beings. We need and want connection and attachment to others. Shared rituals, whether they’re based in some sort of religion, or whether they’re based in just family traditions – rituals are there to strengthen the bonds that we have with people who are important to us. That has transcended all cultures, all people, for millennia. And recognizing that there’s nothing wrong with those celebrations and that rituals are important; however, if you’re coming out of this rigid belief system, and you’re already wrestling with the potentials of this false guilt and toxic shame and debilitating fear and all that shit, we’re now also having to interact with our family, so that’s parents, grandparents, siblings – our family of origin – and friends, former friends that we had when we were in the Christian fundamentalist world, we will often struggle with feeling guilt or fear of disappointing these people, or hurting them, especially during these “holy days”, and that in and of itself is a thing that we have to learn to navigate. In the same way that we have begun to recognize how toxic some of these beliefs were, it’s also true that there are people who are toxic. Some of the dynamics, the relationships can be very unhealthy, therefore I believe it’s very important, when we recognize people that are not going to support us, that are going to be detrimental to our emotional and mental health, that are not for us, they’re just for their belief system and they want to cram us into it – those people, we need to learn to set boundaries in advance. There are great resources out there. Go online and search about setting healthy boundaries with people. It’s an important skill to learn. We don’t have the time and scope within this podcast to talk about it, but it is very, very important.

T: It’s so important. I think it’s probably one of the hardest parts – you’ll find this in religious circles as well as non-religious circles – and when you talk about, for me, the family celebration has always been a super important thing for me. Before I was a Christian, in my earlier Christian days, through my days of divorce, having those traditions and family celebrations was always something that is really important to me and I would say is the hardest to navigate here. I’m glad you mentioned the resources; we’ll try to put as many links as we can, because there are ways to navigate that in the midst of the boundaries that we do have to draw, and you and I are both divorced, and by nature of being divorced you’re bringing fracture to families. That was one of the hardest things for me at the beginning of my divorce is how is this going to impact my children. Do they feel like they’re going to be pulled in different directions, and I do have to give my ex credit. I think he really worked with me that we tried to disrupt their lives as little as possible. We were able to work together to continue to celebrate holidays until they were old enough to basically be out of the home. That does not work for everybody, I think the point of these stories is there are boundaries that you have to set for you, and you have to be able to get that skillset going to think creatively to do that. That was then, and then I think we’ve also talked about how this trauma we’re all dealing with can lay dormant for a while and then rear its head and that was a situation that happened in our family a few years ago. As a result of that, there’s some factions between some of our family members today that we can’t all get together for the holidays, so we’ve had to be very creative. I get together with certain parts of the family on some days, and get together with other parts on the other days. We are very creative in how we navigate through that, but it was hard. it’s difficult, and it’s something I’m very curious Sharon, about you, when you guys went through divorce, how did that impact you and your family? Were there any particular gems or tips that you learned in going through that?

S: Hmm. That’s a good question. I don’t really recall Tracey, I’m sorry to say that. I do know that the first one or two Christmases after the separation were awkward, but fairly quickly after that I was becoming more who I really am, and the joy and the unrestrained fun and creativity to just focus on my kids – that was the thing that I think became different. When I didn’t have to worry about this Jesus God in the sky thing, and I could say this is about gift giving. This is about being considerate, creative, mindful, and finding something to bring joy. That doesn’t equate with how much money you spend. It can be small and simple things, but it’s the time you spend to show that you really considered the individual, and what was important to them, and what they enjoy. And Christmas just became so much more fun and freeing and joyful, and non-materialistic. It really did become about the individuals, and I love that.

T: Yeah, that’s really good. One of the things we are kind of even saying as we tell this is, our approach to holidays and what we were going through has changed in the different seasons we’ve been, haven’t they.

S: Yes, and I think also – as you said, we know that a lot of our listeners are fairly early in their journeys, so be kind and gentle with yourself. Really. That is so key, when you find yourself being critical or judgemental, let that go. Think about how you would advise a friend who was struggling with what you’re dealing with in your situation. What would you say to them? How would you encourage them? Some of the work we need to do is reparenting our inner child. For those of you who grew up in fundamentalist homes, who suffered under the fucking mind control and abusive shit that Tracey, and I, and our generation heaped upon you, I think that you folks have a harder road to walk, because you don’t have memories of before the crazy. You were just born into it. So some of the work that needs to get done is reparenting your inner child. Again, that goes way beyond the scope of what we’re talking about now, but recognizing that you did go through true abuse, and emotional neglect, probably emotional abandonment. In some ways your childhood was betrayed, and not only did you have that external oppression, but to the extent that you bought into these beliefs, you also suffered self-suppression. And that’s a lot to heal from. So if all those wounds were physical , you would see them, but because they are emotional, and mental, spiritual, and true trauma, you don’t necessarily recognize it. This journey is joyful, and it takes time, so be gentle with yourself.

T: Yeah. And as parents, I’m a parent where boundaries were drawn on me. I don’t want to gloss over that. I would say that we’ve been in a journey of walking through that, but those boundaries that have to have been drawn on me, I didn’t understand at first, and it did hurt a lot. Some of those boundaries are still drawn on my husband, or my former husband, my ex-husband, and that is a direct fruit of the stuff that transpired that we have been talking about that we’re all healing from. Healing has come, and it does get better, and it is a journey, and I don’t know if we’re talking to any parents out there – let them draw their boundaries. If you’re one of those children, it’s like you’ve got to do it and not take that responsibility – I think we talk about those expectations. One of the best things about deconstructing for me, personally, was I am not responsible for the souls of the earth in my generation, and really being able to let go. People have their journeys. They have their healing path, they have their healing time, they need their autonomy. They need to be able to take control of their lives and go their way, and I need to let them do that. As a mother I need to let my kids do that, and if you’re one of the kids and an adult child, you need to give yourself permission to do that.

S: Yeah. I think that also there can be this sense of I don’t know – confusion or inner conflict with well, what do we do with the parts that we once really did enjoy, but now don’t feel that we can? Something I’ve been thinking of regarding other aspects of relationships in my life is these ideas of okay, what am I going to do with that thing that is now no longer available to me? Or that thing that has now been broken or damaged? One option is replace it. If there was some symbolism or something that was really meaningful for you but now just holds too much pain, what can you replace it with? Another possibility is to reclaim something; to find a way to – I don’t know if this sounds weird – but cleanse it, whatever, you know? The Native Americans use burning sage. Other people have done things like bury it and dig it back up. Maybe there are things like that, and that might just be symbolic, but there might be things that you don’t want to let go of because they had so much meaning for you but they’re tainted and poisoned – find a way to change it up and reclaim it for yourself, what you want it to be. Some things, you’ve just got to let go of. You’ve just got to release them. They’re gone, you’re not going to get them back, and letting them go and saying goodbye sometimes is the healthiest and most freeing thing.

T: Yes. And I do just want to call out again to the Tao of Nature. I’ve taken gardening up in my older life, I think there’s lots of memes out there that means I’m getting old, but the lessons in nature and why I think winter solstice is such an important part to embrace into maybe some of those rituals because there’s so much about burying and letting go, and even the dying process which I think is really poignant and has really brought me a lot of healing. So we’ll put some of those links in our show notes.

S: That’s great. You know, as I was thinking through this stuff in my own life, I intentionally did not use the word redeem. I don’t want to redeem something because [singing] there is a Redeemer … – no, no, no, I don’t want to go anywhere near that. But this morning Tracey, I listened to something that made me re-think the possibility of that word redemption. I am a huge fan of the podcast Hidden Brain. I think it’s one of the best things out there, I’ve been listening to it for years. In the episode from October 30^th  which I just listened to this morning, the title is Change Your Story, Change Your Life. Putting it in the show notes, I’m recommending every single one of you out there go and listen to this. It’s really powerful and transformative.

T: Yes, and of course Sharon said that to me, I started and I haven’t finished yet but so far everything in there is exactly – even what I’m talking about in the gardening rituals; it is a way to create, to recreate, and to be able to craft your own life, and I think that’s been one of the biggest narratives I’ve appreciated in deconstructing as well – our own power back. We get our own power back. For years we just kept – you know, I’m nothing, break me, pour me out – just completely emptying of everything, and to be able to now embrace who I am and be able to craft that life for it, I think is like being born again. This is a really great season to reflect on what that could even mean, and this is a great resource to get those thoughts going.

S: Yeah, click and listen to it folks, it’s really good.

T: Yes, to get those thoughts going, and that’s really what this journey has been about Sharon. One of the things Flamy recommended in our Flamy Grant Christmas special, so if you haven’t heard that please pop over…

S: I love how you just keep plugging it girl, keep plugging it!

T: I know, I just love the way that sounds. The Flamy Grant Christmas Special – I think it sounds awesome.

S: I know!

T: She recommended a band called Over the Rhine. I did listen to a few of those and there is a time for – as winter is coming and you don’t like the word redemptive, but reflection – having a chance to reflect over, I don’t know, even the pain and the grief. I loved what you said earlier; step back and look at it, and don’t be afraid, even of the things that make you sad

S: Yeah, I started to listen to a few of their songs as well and I do think they can really touch those tender, maybe still bruised parts of our heart, and I’m looking forward to listening to more. And there is something – what was Elton John’s thing? Sad songs.

T: Yes.

S: There is some healing about connecting with the grief. There’s power in it. there’s cleansing in it. Yeah.

T: Yes, there is.  I think that’s one of the things that was robbed from many of us fundamentalists because we weren’t allowed to feel certain emotions, or it was seen as being less than holy, less than trusting God, so we have to teach ourselves again Sharon. We have to teach ourselves how to allow ourselves to go through that gamut of emotions and how to sit with that, to learn from that, and to grow with that – which I’m going to put another plug in for gardening. Gardening does that too. You learn so many great truths through that. And I love the idea of changing your story and of course, being gentle with yourselves. So for this holiday season we wanted to share stuff that we’ve really had to go through, through the decades, but do what is best for you. Take time, step back, give yourself space, be gentle, and do what is best for you, to have the time and space to grow in.

S: Yeah, and we will put some resources in our show notes and Tracey, I’m sure you’re going to post on Instagram, right?

T: I am going to post some fun things on Instagram, and some poignant things on Instagram.

S: My friend, you are always coming up with beautiful and creative gems. I’m going to confess I always open up Instagram first thing in the morning and I wonder, what did Tracey do overnight?

T: What did I do?

[laughter]

T: Oh, that’s great. And for those of you especially if you’re new to the holiday season in your deconstructing journey, or old hat, please come over to our Facebook community page. It’s a private Facebook group where you can ask anything, if you’re struggling with something or if you have great ideas, you can come over and talk freely in a safe space. Because the biggest message, and the whole point of this is you are not alone.

S: That’s right. We are all together in this, our dear listeners. And you know, Tracey, we also decided we might need to bring a little laughter and silliness to the season, right?

T: A little laughter and silliness, yes.

S: Yes, so on December 27^th you will get to hear Tracey and me totally fail a 1980s trivia competition.

T: A trivia night. It’s light-hearted, and it may not be for everyone, because we are going through basically what I call the decade that is missing from our lives. It actually bleeds from the late 70s into the 90s but we’re just sticking to the 80s here because that was a pretty solid missing decade of our lives, so we would love for you to join us as my nephew basically has a virtual trivia game for Sharon and I to see who knew pop culture, the history, the songs of the time.

S: Or who didn’t know.

[laughter]

T: Spoiler alert!

S: We already said we failed it.

T: I think it came to me because I was reading through some other Instagram posts and people were saying how often you can feel out of place when people are making all these cultural references that you just missed because you were so separate, and it reminded me of a movie did see, a Brendon Fraser movie – did you see it Sharon, do you remember?

S: I got no fucking idea what movie you’re talking about.

T: See, I wish that were a question because I would get a point. I think it’s Blast from the Past, and it’s been a while, but he lived for a period of time in this fallout shelter, then he comes out and he knows nothing.  

S: Oh yeah, I can relate to that.

T: It’s kind of like our trivia night.

S: Okay. Well folks, hopefully you’ll want to come and laugh along with us – and at us, and that’s fine – until then, be good to yourselves, be good to one another. It may sound corny, but we really, really do extend our love to each and every one of you.

T: Yes and amen! Can I still say amen Sharon?

S: You can say amen.

T: I agree, love to you all, thank you to everyone who’s been listening and giving us feedback and connecting. That’s been one of the special joys in this, is connecting with so many awesome people.

S: Alright everybody, ta-ta for now.

T: Ta-ta. But not our ta tas.

[laughter]