This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 029 – A Flamy Grant Christmas (sort of?) – The Hip-Swaying, Shame-Slaying, Chart-Topping Drag Queen!

November 29^th, 2023

T: Hi, I’m Tracey,

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters! Today we have a very special show for you as we kick off the Christmas season, and I couldn’t think of a better episode than…

S: The Flamy Grant Christmas Special! Woohoohoo!

T: Woohoo!

FG: I have my very own Christmas special?

S: Yeah!

FG: That’s amazing. Thank you for having me!

T: The reason we thought about doing this is I found you when I started putting my Instagram page live last year sometime, and I immediately found Flamy Grant, and I I was like, oh my god, I have to go find out what Flamy Grant is about because of course, we are cult sisters that grew up in the area of contemporary Christian music – kind of the launching of it all. So Amy Grant was a big player in that sphere, and what is she known for? Her Christmas specials!

FG: Mmhmm.

T: So Flamy, I’m such a fan girl so I would love to hear you talk to us about your introduction to the CCM world that’s been recently going like wildfire!

FG: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it’s been crazy! My introduction to the CCM world though, was through my local Christian bookstore, the Carpenter shop in Asheville Carolina, growing up in the 80s and 90s. I was only allowed to listen to music that we – you know, my family considered Christian. So if it was at our local Christian bookstore, I was allowed to get it. if it wasn’t, I probably couldn’t. I found Amy Grant early, early on and mostly through like, songs we would sing in church. We would sing El Shaddai and Thy Word and songs like that, so I knew her from those, but became a big fan as soon as I started listening to music myself. I listened to CCM basically through college, and then it turned into – like, the whole genre pivoted and turned into worship music, which is terrible and awful and no one should ever be forced to listen to worship music, or participate in worship music, and I say this as someone who was a worship leader for 22 years.

S: Wow.

FG: So I stopped listening to CCM then; now I’m a Christian music, chart topping drag queen somehow?

S: I know!

FG: So I guess I’m back in the game!

S: Amen sister!

T: Yeah! So our roots go back to our cult commune at Last Days Ministries started by legendary Keith Green, and we were in the Garden Valley area, that was really a mecca for contemporary Christian artists. We had Second Chapter of Acts there, we had Jamie Owens Collins, back in the day with Barry McGuire, so these would probably have pre-dated your contemporary Christian music, because you’re a little bit younger than we are.

S: You’re a lot younger than we are!

FG: Not a lot. I mean, they did pre-date me a little bit, they weren’t what I was listening to, but I’m aware of – they were in the ether still, and I subscribed to CCM magazine as a teenager, so I would read stories about all of these things. But I don’t actually know all that much about Keith Green’s commune, and I know your listeners do, but I wonder if I could just get the two minute – like, what? He had a commune?

S: Okay, so I’m going to go really, really fast.

FG: Okay.

S; In the late 70s, out of the Jesus People movement, Keith starts bringing people into his house, because he’s proselytizing and everyone’s getting saved, and he wants to get them off the streets. Then he rents about 7 different houses in the suburbs of Woodland Hills California, then who knows if the code violation is going to catch up with him? So then he wants to relocate, and buys 500 acres in East Texas, and sets up a commune. We try to raise cows and chickens, and we fail miserably at everything. But it’s Last Days Ministries because Jesus is coming back soon, and then he wants to give everything away and never charge again for his concerts, but he needs lots and lots of people to work for him, so we work and we work, six days a week, 10-12 hours a day, and we don’t get paid, and we print tons and tons, shit tons of proselytizing articles and tracts, and then he gets himself killed in a plane crash in 1982. Bam.

FG: Wow.

T: Bam!

FG: That was the year I was born, so maybe I am Keith Green reincarnated, and I’ve learned from my mistakes. I’m just saying!

S: Oh my god girl, that would be great!

[laughter]

T: I would so love that.

[laughter]

T: Yeah, so he was kind of a meteor in Christian music, because he decided he shouldn’t charge for his albums. In a lot of Christian lore, people really herald him for that, but what they don’t know is he had this whole infrastructure of free labor and commune work that enabled that to take place.

S: Yeah.

FG: That’s wild.

T: That wouldn’t be possible for a lot of people to do.

S: Yeah, there were Christian artists being kind of shamed.

T: Yes.

S: Because first he started doing the concerts for love offerings, but who can really survive on that, right? And he held it out – if this is a ministry and we’re preaching the gospel, we can’t charge for the gospel. So it did start kind of this crisis in the late 70s/early 80s where people were questioning the integrity and the commitment of other CCM artists, but Keith’s the only one who had a slave labor force, so he could do it and others couldn’t.

FG: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. That’s so wild.

T: Yes. So when I found – well, first of all like I said, I found you on Instagram last year sometime before we really started this project, and I immediately sent Sharon the video of What Did You Drag Me Into? And I was like, this is the most amazing thing ever.

[music track What Did You Drag Me Into plays]

S: Love it! Sorry.

FG: Thank you.

T: And then I saw you at the Book and the Bell in Merivale.

FG: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

T: So that was all before then, then you made this post of Sean – I call him Fucked – Feucht, challenged you, so tell us a little bit about that, and I immediately was like, we HAVE to get her on and do all we can to help catapult you into the charts, because this is near and dear to our hearts.

FG: Yeah. What a summer it was. Sean, if you’re not familiar, he’s a self-described MAGA worship leader, he is responsible for all of the COVID worship concerts that you probably heard about at the height of COVID, that were happening, with just like, hoards of unmasked people singing their praise to God. While God, if God was watching, was probably up there tapping their foot being like, um, yeah, y’all gonna get sick and die.

[laughter]

FG: But yeah, so Sean – I don’t know, he tweeted about me and some of my collaborators, Derek Webb in particular, and said that well, this is the end goal of deconstruction, everyone. A drag queen infiltrating Christian music, or whatever. And so I was a cheeky drag queen in my response, and I said end goal? Baby! Baby, we’re just getting started. It’s not the end goal.

S: Love it. I love it.

FG: He had a little knee-jerk reaction to that tweet, and said well, good thing no one listens to you or cares what you do. And I said, challenge accepted.

T: Mmhmm.

S: Alright!

FG: Next thing I knew, I literally woke up the next day, because it went on my TikTok and told the story and said hey, maybe we can get my album to chart on the Christian charts, what do you all think? And people thought, yes. And they did. They made it happen. I am the first drag queen to ever chart on the Christian charts, and not just chart, but my album sat at number one for nine days in July and August this summer.

S: Number one!!

FG: Number one baby!

S: Yeah!

FG: If you opened up iTunes – which admittedly, iTunes – it’s a bit of a relic of a bygone era. We don’t really use iTunes that much anymore.

S: Wait, wait – really?

FG: Well yeah.

S: Because I’ve just learned how to do it!

[laughter]

FG: Ohh.

T: But Sharon, we’re relics of a bygone era. So continue.

[laughter]

S: Okay.

FG: Listen, me too. Me too, girl. I released an album that would sit very comfortably in 1998 Christian music, so we’re all just relics here. People stream now; they don’t really – not a lot of people buy mp3s anymore, but you can still do that on iTunes. That’s what ended up happening; people went and bought the mp3, and for nine days when you opened your iTunes, my pink-haired, wigged, painted face was the literal face of Christian music – for nine days. So that was a fun thing.

S: No, that’s not just fun. That is fucking fantastic, is what that is!

FG: It was. It really was. I loved it. I did. Not gonna lie.

T: I posted on my Instagram the picture when Keith Green made the cover of CCM magazine, and then you on the CCM front cover of the magazine, and what a beautiful story through time that is! I love the idea of the reincarnated version, because this wasn’t just a gimmick. I mean, your music is really powerful, the lyrics are really impactful and we had a close brother who used to be a part of that commune who didn’t know he was queer back in the day, and now is out, and he said it just brought tears to his eyes, knowing how much hope that was bringing to so many caught in these circles that don’t have a voice. So it’s awesome, but it’s also amazingly impactful, Flamy.

FG: Mmm. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that. I mean, yes it’s fun to be cheeky and especially drag lends itself to caricatures and extremes, but at the end of the day, I see myself as an artist, and that’s what I love to do. I’ve been writing songs long before I was doing drag, and I see myself as a singer/songwriter. I take that work seriously, so I appreciate that you see past the gimmick, and also recognize that it’s not just a gimmick. I mean, there’s obviously an element of being a drag queen in a space that is provocative, and intentionally so, so I’m not going to sit here and play innocent and go oh no, I’m just … – no, I know what I’m doing. I’m drag queen, and I released my album in the Christian genre. That’s an intentional choice I made. But at the same time, drag is very much a part of my own spiritual journey, and that’s what the songs are about. It’s about that journey from fundamentalism to where I am today, and that’s why I think it qualifies as a Christian record.

S: It absolutely does.

T: More than qualifies.

S: Yeah. I want to ask you a couple of follow up questions about that faith journey, but first I do want to say that yeah – the drag persona, I get what you’re saying, the flamboyance, it does help gain attention, but what I love about it is just stepping out into authenticity and vulnerability, and not having to fit into a mold. I think there are so many people who have been raised, or got dragged into fundamental evangelicalism and the whole cult mindset, and the oppression, and of course, those who are in the queer community are going to experience a certain amount of oppression, and others who are not in the queer community are also experiencing oppression. And I love that message of freedom and movement, and embracing who you are. I think it is so powerful, and so empowering, and really makes a difference. The first time I heard your song, It’s A Good Day to Come Back Home, I just was in tears.

FG: Mmm.

S: There’s such a healing part of that. For me, the coming back home isn’t a church building or anything like that, but it’s coming home to who I really am.

[music track It’s A Good Day to Come Back Home plays]

S: But it’s coming home to who I really am. That is the banner; that is the flag that you fly, Flamy, and I love it. It’s just priceless.

FG: Thank you. Wow. I appreciate that. I love that you chose two words that people might not immediately associate with drag, right – authenticity and vulnerability, because from an external position, you can look at drag and go oh there’s nothing authentic about it! We’re painting our faces to look entirely different; we’re wearing prosthetics, we’re like – it’s not natural. We’re creating something new. But it is an authentic expression, because what drag does is – in addition to being a tool of gender fuckery that’s there to point out the absurdity of gender norms in our society and the binary system that most of us grew up in. In addition to that, drag, like any art, is an extension of the artist. We’re taking what’s inside, and we’re manifesting it externally in some way, shape or form. I’m not sculpting or painting, but I am sculpting and painting my face and my body, and so it’s very much an authentic expression in that way. Then vulnerability – the thing about drag is, oh  drag is fierce. You have to like, it’s your armor. You put on your armor, you go out and you take on the world, and conquer the world and do your death drops and stunts and slay on stage, and all this. That is a wonderful, huge part of drag culture, obviously, and one that I’m here for, but at the same time what I’ve discovered for myself in my little drag journey over the past few years, is that there is a softness, a tenderness, a vulnerability. For me it is connecting to the feminine in me that was suppressed and oppressed for so long, because I was raised to be a man in the church, which meant I had to behave a certain way, I had to live a certain way, I had to do certain things.

S: That’s right.

FG: Femininity, especially in these high demand places, is equated with weakness, so I couldn’t explore my femininity growing up in that. So this is absolutely a way to be vulnerable, not just with the world around me, but with myself. Brene Brown is the vulnerability superstar so I don’t need to reiterate all of the work she does, but that vulnerability is strength. We know that from the data, thankfully, that she’s given us. Powerful stuff.

S: It is. You know, something you said about the idea of as you were growing up, what you needed to fit into with the masculinity, the stereotype, here’s the box that you need to fit into, and any expression of your own feminine side is obviously – obviously of the devil!

FG: Yeah.

S: It’s not as extreme for women growing up, but Tracey and I – it wasn’t so much about our sexual orientation because we’re both straight, white women, but that scripture about that gentle and quiet spirit? It’s like, yeow, we’re not gentle and quiet. So we didn’t fit into that mold, but we tried to and that was part of the suppression of who we are. Not able to be authentic, until we finally got out of that prison. I’ve interrupted you Tracey.

T: No, no, I was going to say exactly almost that. It resonates so much with so many of us fundys who have had oppression and suppression in so many areas. We didn’t call it deconstructing, but we came out of our fundamentalist ways over 20 years ago and drag was actually a big healing outlet for me. I started immediately going to drag brunches and I was connected in Philadelphia to a jeweller, who threw this amazing Halloween party and it was that hook for me. This being out and proud and turning it all upside down on its head, and just being a source of freedom – which brings me back to living in Tennessee. That’s been something that Sharon and I have shared. I invited her to that Halloween party where we got to dress up and experience that free part of ourselves. All of this has been going on for 20 years, and then I have been in Tennessee for what, about seven, and all of a sudden there’s this anti drag bill that is getting passed.

S: So fucked up!

T: It is so fucked up! I was driving home from work, and all of a sudden, on the news station is Flamy Grant…

[laughter]

T:…being quoted, because you joined the ACLU of Tennessee to fight the ban for the Blount Pride, which I then attended, because well, I have to go and support this, and can you tell us a little bit about what’s pulled you into this Tennessee anti-drag bill? And thank you, first of all, for being a voice that went on record in helping to really push against these laws that are trying to shut this down.

FG: Yeah. Man. It just goes to show that existing authentically as yourself in the world, as a queer person, is an act of resistance. I didn’t ask for any of this. I did not go seeking out this lawsuit in any way, shape or form. What happened was I got booked at Blount Pride months and months ago, a long time ago, before – I can’t remember if it was before the drag ban was actually proposed or enacted or anything. But it was before there was a hint the drag ban might come to Blount county, right. So, booked at Blount Pride. I was very excited about it, because as you said, I had played at The Bird & The Book there in Maryville Tennessee a year prior and I knew that there was a strong queer community there that loved art, and loved music and showed up and showed out. So I was excited to come back. We scheduled it – the way it fell, it fell right in the middle of what was going to be my cross country moved from San Deigo back to Western North Carolina, where I live now. So I was like, well, I guess we’re going to figure out a way to stop with the U-Haul and do a drag show in Tennessee.

T: Amazing.

FG: So that’s what was happening. I was driving a U-Haul across the country and I got a call when we were in Albuquerque from Blount Pride, and they were like hey, so the District Attorney here has sent us all letters saying he is going to enforce the drag ban that has already been ruled unconstitutional in Memphis. Apparently he sees a big difference between west and east Tennessee, I don’t know, whatever. So he’s like, based on the marketing of the event, it looks like you guys are going to be in violation of the drag ban. I am going to enforce it, and potentially prosecute anyone who violates it – which would include me, obviously. Blount Pride called in the ACLU, and thank god for the ACLU, they do such good work. They immediately put together this lawsuit, invited me to be part of it, warned me at the outset – they were like, this could put a really negative spotlight on you from people on the other side, conservative folks. And I was like, listen. I just topped the Christian charts, I don’t think that there’s any spotlight that’s going to be brighter than that in terms of people who are upset at drag at finding me. I’m pretty sure they’ve found me already.

[laughter]

FG: So it wasn’t that – everyone says oh you’re so brave and I’m like, uh, I don’t know. It felt very necessary. The ACLU said it would be very helpful to have an artist who’s actually impacted by this on the lawsuit, and I was like, great. Of course. Put my name on that. I guess I can’t really talk about it all that much in depth because it is still ongoing but what did happen that weekend is that we were granted a temporary restraining order against the District Attorney and the Police, so they were banned from enforcing the drag ban.

[laughter]

FG: Now that drag ban is still under appeal in I think the sixth circuit. I’m on that lawsuit now too, somehow it all kind of got put in one big lawsuit. We’ll see where that goes, but obviously my hope is that the trend continues, and it gets struck down for good in Tennessee, so we can just move on from this.

T: Yeah, we can move on without this. As somebody who went to the Pride event, I mean, this is a really big gun state, so of course there is that sense of is some crazy person out there going to try to make a statement. There is a lot of bravery. You can deflect that, but it is a lot of bravery to come out and support that. That was something – I was getting ready to travel the next day, but I was like, I have to go. I have to go and make a statement and get all my friends to support this, because this has got to be struck down.

FG: Yeah.

T: Which brings us to Tennessee connections. I have hoped that there would one day be an Amy Grant Flamy Grant collaboration.

[laughter]

FG: You and me both, sis! You and me both.

S: Have you had any communication or interactions with Amy Grant?

FG: Not with Amy directly, I’ve not met her yet. I really hope to one day. I’ve talked to a lot of people who are kind of in her circle, a couple of people on her team, that sort of thing, so I know she’s very aware Flamy exists, and the report is that Team Amy is very much – they’re kind of cheering me on from the sidelines. I think they’re happy with everything. I know that she was getting calls from some of her fan base to send a cease and desist to this drag queen and that kind of thing, and that’s not going to be a thing that they’re going to do.

S: That’s good.

FG: One day. One day I hope to meet her.

T: One day.

S: One day. You know, I remember going to one of her concerts – this must have been in the late 70s/early 80s, I don’t remember, probably early 80s, in Texas. Of course, Tracey and I, we were so steeped in this intensity of Christianity and everybody’s gotta get saved, and everybody’s going to hell, and you’ve gotta make every single second count for the kingdom of God. She was in this stadium, and there was some problem with part of the sound system. Some of the folks in some of the seats weren’t hearing when she was talking in between songs. They started screaming, and she handled it. she just had so much grace and poise, and she said hey, I’m sorry about that guys, but let me just reassure you; what I’m saying right now, it’s not going to change your lives, so it’s okay, and I’ll be singing again soon. Something like that. I remember in my crazy, intense, self-righteous, arrogant, holy holy holy Christianity, I thought well girl, why are you talking at all then, if it’s not going to change their lives? You should shut up!

[laughter]

FG: Oh my word.

S: Now I look back and think wow, she was probably so much more balanced. Not probably. She was definitely so much more balanced than all of us were at that crazy time!

[laughter]

T: Yes.

FG: I know. We all said – you said you didn’t use the word deconstruction, I didn’t either. I “deconstructed” right before that became kind of a buzz word. I just called it apostasy. I’m like, well, I’m a heathen now.

[laughter]

T: Yep!

FG: But she was going through that in the 80s and 90s, dealing with cancel culture from evangelicals and things like that. She had to grow fast.

S: Yes.

T: Yeah, we were brutal. So bringing it back to the Christmas special – one of her most famous songs is A Tennessee Christmas, so I thought it would be really appropriate, as we kick off the Christmas season, that part of this is being recorded in Tennessee, especially with the anti-drag bill that’s out there, being able to have a Flamy Grant Tennessee Christmas.

FG: Ooo.

T: So I would really just like to know – I guess, what your favorite memory of Christmas is, or one of your cringeworthy fundy memories of Christmas, and then how you have changed, maybe celebrating the season, since your deconstruction.

FG: Ooh. Let’s see! Well, there’s so many to choose from.

T: I know!

S: We got all day girl, we got all day.

FG: I mean, it’s funny, I have…

S: Do as much as you want.

FG: I have – the song What Did You Drag Me Into, the second verse is about the Christmas nativity at my church growing up, and I tell people when I perform this song, look, it’s autobiographical but I’m a drag queen, so I’ve thrown a few rhinestones on there. It’s embellished a touch.

[laughter]

T: Love it.

FG: And that’s the verse I’m referring to, because in that verse I kind of imply that I played the Virgin Mary in our church nativity – which I didn’t. I just wanted to.

[laughter]

FG: That was the part I desperately wanted to have, and I got stuck as a boring angel singing Silent Night.

[laughter]

FG: So yeah, Christmas was interesting. One year I remember I got Amy Grant’s House of Love record, I think that came out in 1994, so I was 12. I got it on cassette that year, and I was so excited. I think that year Christmas fell on a Sunday, because after opening our presents we went to church.

T: Oh god, I’m so sorry.

FG: I know, right?

T: That’s horrible!

FG: It’s Christmas day, but that doesn’t mean we’re not going to church! So I put the cassette in the car stereo to play on the way to church, and a few bars in – I don’t know if my mom didn’t realize that Amy Grant was singing “secular” music at that point – you know, just like, normal pop music.

S: No organ. It didn’t have an organ, right?

FG: It didn’t have an organ, and Jesus name was nowhere to be found in those first few bars, and she realized, this is a love song. And I said yeah, I think it is a love song. She ejected it and was like, we’re going to listen to Jesus music on the way to church, not this. So you know, we had our fun moments around Christmas, but for me Christmas now is definitely my favorite holiday, much to my husband’s chagrin. It’s not his and he doesn’t get it. Honestly, I don’t get it either, because why Christmas. I don’t know, there’s just something in the air that I still love. I didn’t listen to the Tennessee record growing up, I actually listened to Home for Christmas. That’s my definitive Amy Christmas record, I didn’t find the other ones until later. But we’d go to my grandma’s house on my dad’s side, Christmas Eve, every year, and she had a CD stereo system before they were common in houses, and I was always amazed at this CD player, and one of the few CDs she had was Amy Grant’s Home for Christmas record. I would go and put it on, and that thing would be spinning on repeat the entire weekend. So Amy’s part of my Christmas memories in that way, and being at my grandma’s house in South Carolina. I hope I get to do a Christmas record one of these days. That would be so fun.

T: I would love that.

S: Oh my gosh, you have to!

T: Yes, you have to. One of the things through the Christmas season, I notice it is a hard season for a lot of people who are deconstructing.

FG: Totally.

T: For me, I’m a lot like you. I think the pagans had it first, so the whole winter solstice and the elvish fantasy – I’ve been able to adopt all of that, and still love the magic of Christmas, is probably what I concentrate on now. But when my kids were little we did the whole nativity calendar where each day you pulled out a symbol of the Jesus story.

[laughter]

T: And told them leading up to that, so it’s definitely changed, but when you’re out and about and you hear some of the Christmas hymns, what’s your relationship with those that are very highly centered on the Jesus story?

FG: Yeah. You know, I was a worship leader up until last year.

T: Wow.

FG: The last 8 ½ years I was at a very progressive, inclusive, affirming church, so I’ve been doing those songs my entire life, every Christmas. I found a ways around some of them – some are actually really good. Like, It Came Upon A Midnight Clear I feel is actually a really awesome way to tell that story, so I love that hymn. I don’t know, I feel like Christmas music, more than any other church music, I’m kind of able to dissociate a little bit from some of the narrative that’s underlying it. also, I started introducing more carols and modern holiday songs, that kind of stuff, into our church services. We would do the Christmas waltz at our church, and one of my favorite resources for melancholic Christmas music, and reckoning with the season and how hard it can be, is a band called Over the Rhine. I don’t know if y’all are familiar with them? They’re out of Cincinnati, they’re a husband and wife duo and they’ve been around forever. They’ve released a couple, maybe three now, Christmas records over the years, that rival Amy’s in terms of how important they are to me and my Christmas experience. They’re kind of pretty somber, melancholic records but they’re perfect for winter, because that’s where a lot of us want to be, especially with seasonal affective disorder and things like that. For me, I like sitting in the melancholic. It can be very healing and helpful for me, and they kind of wrestle with the hard places of Christmas. I’ve taken some of their songs and brought them into churches where I’ve led Christmas music. I’m actually doing a little winter magic tour this December, with fellow artists Crys Matthews and Rebecca Loebe. Just four nights in the south-east; North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee. I think I’m going to do some Over the Rhine songs there, on that tour.

S: That’s great. Information on those dates and how people can come see you, is that on a website?

FG: It’s all on my website, flamygrant.com. I also post shows on my socials and things like that.

T: Great.

FG: That’s the way to make sure you get them. I’ll make a little plug for my email newsletter – sign up to my email newsletter, you can sign up right on my website, flamygrant.com, and that’s the best way to make sure you get all the deets.

S: Perfect. Well, we’ll put that in the show notes too.

T: Yes, we will.

FG: Appreciate it.

T: I want to be respectful of your time, so I love the winter magic. That’s something I’ve been able to incorporate the Christmas story as mythology. I love mythology, I love stories. Storytelling has some great nuggets that you can pull from when you’re not looking at it literally, so I love to hear you say that. Is there anything else in the Flamy Grant Christmas special that you wanted to be sure to either say or comment on?

FG: Well let’s see. This isn’t Christmas related and it will have already happened I expect, by the time that this comes out, but I am set to release my first “holiday themed” song. It’s not really a Halloween song, it’s just I’m releasing it this month in October, around Halloween. The song’s called Fortune Teller.

S: Awesome!

FG: We’re theming it – it kind of fits with spooky season. So that’s coming out soon.

S: Can’t wait!

[music track Fortune Teller plays]

FG: I’m ramping up. I’m working my way up to Christmas. We’ll start with a little spooky season and then maybe next year we can try and get a Christmas record together. I don’t know. We’ll see.

S: That’s awesome.

FG: I do love doing drag at Christmas. Holiday drag is so fun. It’s so easy, first of all because there’s already a bazillion costumes that are easily accessible, for the holidays, so it just makes drag a little easier.

T: Yes, and sparkles and glitter…

FG: Yes, exactly!

T: All the fun.

FG: And you get to sing sexy songs about Santa Claus.

[laughter]

T: One of the points I try to make in Tennessee is – obviously drag and burlesque are different, but I’m a huge burlesque fan as well, so one of my first Christmas burlesque shows that I went to was when they had the Christmas story lamp – the famous lamp from the Christmas story, and it was a pole. They did a whole pole dance on the Christmas story lamp. It was brilliant.

FG: I love it.

S: Oh man.

FG: San Diego, where I kind of cut my drag teeth, if you will, the burlesque and drag scenes are very much intertwined. We do a lot with burlesque dancers in San Diego, so it was always a great experience. But I never saw a Christmas burlesque I don’t think, so…

T: It is fun!

FG: Yeah, it does sound fun.

S: Tracey, was it one of my birthdays that you gave me and some of my friends – we all did a burlesque lesson.

T: Yes it was.

S: Yeah! Tracey took us out for burlesque lessons.

FG: Awesome.

T: It was Sharon’s 50^th birthday and we had a burlesque show lesson. It was great.

FG: Love it.

T: Alright, well we’re going to put in our show notes all the connections, and even if you send us the spooky season, because I’m right there with you. I spent all day yesterday decorating my house. Halloween is also one of my favorite holidays.

FG: So fun!

T: We would love to post your links and connection to that story before this goes live.

FG: Absolutely, yeah. Thank y’all so much!

S: Thank you.

FG: This has been such a pleasure getting to know you, and hearing about Keith Green’s commune. My god.

S: Well, I’ll tell you another thing – maybe we’ll add this onto the end, we’ll do a little dissection. We needed to really tamp down any joy at Christmas. There’s a wonderful article that Keith wrote, I think in 1979, called Christmas Mourning.

FG: Oh no.

S: It’s great, because it’s Santa Claus weeping at the foot of the cross with Jesus hanging there.

FG: Oh my god.

T: Yeah.

S: Lets get in the Christmas spirit, man!

T: That was the flavor of our commune, yes.

FG: Oh I’m so sorry.

[laughter]

FG: What a mess.

S: Yeah, but we got great stories to tell. We got great sotries now.

FG: And see, that’s the magic. That is the magic, is finding – what do they say comedy is? Tragedy plus time.

T: Ohh. That’s good.

S: There you go.

FG: Finding your joy, finding the community that you can resonate with and laugh at those stories together, that’s what all of this is, and I think it’s great.

…

S: Wow. That was truly, truly wonderful, talking with the one and only Flamy Grant! Oh my goodness, thank you so much, my soul sister Tracey, for making that happen for all of us.

T: I know! I am so excited, and that was such an honor and privilege. And to host her own Christmas special!

S: Those last points that she was sharing about finding your joy, finding your community, laughing together – oh my gosh, just such beautiful and healing truth. I mean, it’s just truth, isn’t it?

T: Mmhmm.

S: I’m going to also add crying together, because sometimes that’s also a big part of the healing.

T: Yeah. That was so poignant. Everybody, we recorded that conversation with Flamy back on October 9^th, which is before she released her very brand new song, Fortune Teller. Because this one episode is dropping in late November, Sharon and her amazing editing skills, was able to put that song as something special to our listeners. When I was listening to the preview, I was like, it really is like a Christmas special with the songs and everything!

S: It is, and thank you Flamy for giving us permission to put your songs right here into this episode. And folks, go and look up – if you’re like me, I can’t always pick out every single word of the lyrics in the song, so I love reading them as well. And her lyrics are just amazing. There’s this one towards the end of Fortune Teller I love these words: But this world ain’t ready for an allegory, no, we’re still waiting on a literal God. I just smile and nod.

T: Oh. Mmhmm.

S: That just gave me goosebumps. The insight of that is so profound and her gentle gracefulness to just smile and nod? For some reason that just really moved me, you know, because I kind of tend to want to be a bull in a china shop and smack people upside the head – what the fuck is wrong with you? But being able to ju9st smile and nod, and accepting people where they are, you know?

T: Yes, which is an attribute of grace, isn’t it.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So you can find the music of Flamy Grant in so many places. Spotify, Amazon, iTunes, and we encourage you to listen and stream and download, and really help spread the word. And Sharon, I think you and I are hoping that we might be able to see Flamy together, ourselves in concert, some time in the spring of 2024?

S: Yeah, right, sister! Absolutely we gotta do that. It will be so much fun! Like you said, we’re going to put links in our show notes, and folks out there, hopefully you can find concert dates that might be in your area as well. I kind of like now that we’re making Flamy’s music another joyful part of our healing journey.

T: Yes. And about that healing journey – we had planned to take some time off from recording, but in the past few weeks we’ve been thinking and talking and hearing from listeners about this upcoming holiday season which we’re kicking off here, and how I know this can be a really hard and difficult time for so many that are (a) either coming out of extreme fundamentalist belief systems, or controlling cults, or especially because there may be broken or strained family relationships, and when you concentrate on family it can be very, very hard.

S: And friends, too! Like some of us had our best friends in those belief systems, and now we don’t have them as besties anymore.

T: We don’t. And then just that inner wrestling. What do you do with the holidays? It used to symbolize for us – what does it symbolize now? We can so relate to all of those and we thought it would be good if we came on and kind of shared a little bit of what we’ve learned, and how we handle the holidays.

S: Yeah. You know, the opportunities for toxic shame and false guilt, and this traumatic fear, for those to raise their ugly heads within our hearts – we get it. we definitely wrestled with those things. Tracey, I was thinking about hearing the standard songs like O Come All Ye Faithful, then I recognized that we’ve left some or all of that faith behind, and it can feel overwhelming at times. I think those three things; shame, guilt and fear, I think they are way worse than even fluffy Hagrid’s three-headed dog.

T: Oh my god, did you just add a Harry Potter reference into our Christmas special?

S: Of course, damn right I did!

T: Oh my god. So dear listeners, we’re going to work on that episode, and we’re hoping to release on December 13^th, just to talk about navigating these very turbulent holiday waters.

S: Yep. Between now and then, be gentle to one another. Be kind to one another, but most importantly, start with being gentle and kind to yourself. That sometimes is so hard to do. If you’re interested, we’ve got a Facebook group where you can connect with others who are also on this journey; Feet of Clay Confessions of the Cult Sisters Community.

T: Community!  So yes please share our podcast with your friends, rate us, leave us a review, and don’t forget to check out our Instagram. I might just put up a picture of the Harry Potter dog with maybe wreaths around their necks or something?

S: How about drag wigs and glitter?

T: Okay. I might need some direction from you since I’ve never really read all the Harry Potter series, but…

S: Wait, wait. You’re kidding me, right?

T: I am not kidding you. I read the first book, and then I’ve seen the movies out of order.

S: Oh my god woman, I don’t know if I can even be friends with you anymore.

T: I know! I know. Listeners, I don’t know if I wanted to confess that here. That’s the confession of this cult sister.

S: Oh dear.

T: But check it out, Instagram Feet of Clay.cult sisters for some super fun stuff and some poignant stuff, and letting you know the latest of what we’re doing.

S: Oh! Oh oh, did you ever find those very personal burlesque pictures from my 50^th birthday party?

T: So Sharon, not only did I find them, if you recall – or maybe you don’t – I made a calendar out of them.

S: Ohhhh.

T: So I’ve actually got a copy of the calendar that still sits on my bookshelf.  Yes, I have them digitized as well, ready to put up for all the world to see.

S: That should be extra merch for us, right?

T: It should be.

S: People could do their Christmas shopping! Oh my god, alright, we gotta close this thing down girl, so thanks for listening everybody, we’ll see you in a couple of weeks.

T: Bye bye.