This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 028 – We Discuss Two Books: “Counting the Cost” by Jill Duggar &
“The Woman They Wanted” by Shannon Harris (Part 2)

November 15^th, 2023

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters! Well, this is part two of our discussion about the books “The Woman They Wanted” by Shannon Harris, and Counting The Cost by Jill Duggar. If you haven’t heard part one we really encourage you to pop back and listen to that one first. Before we get into this episode I just wanted to ask you Sharon, how are you doing? We’re recording this on October 15^th and I know that your mother just passed away on October 11^th. That’s a lot, and I was just wanting to make sure that you were okay and give you a chance to talk.

S: Oh, that’s so sweet of you. Thank you, my friend. I’m doing well. I’m doing well. You know, one thing I find kind of interesting or serendipitous or – I don’t know – on the morning of October 12^th, so that’s the day after my mother died, I was reading a number of posts and comments in our Facebook group, Feet of Clay, Confessions of the Cult Sisters community, and several people were talking about having moms also in their 80s, and having these tense and complicated relationships. Most of them it’s because of their mothers’ adherence to  super fundamentalist or evangelical beliefs, and the behaviors that go along with that, all the shit that swirls with that, right?

T: Yes.

S: And I could very much recognize some aspects of those relationships that are mirrored my relationship with my own mother. But my mom, she wasn’t fundy, she was alcoholic and a prescription drug abuser. Mostly she was just pretty narcissistic, but saying and doing so many of the same things as these hardline religious parents. It’s just her theology was about rabid, right wing politics instead of heaven and hell. But anyway, it got me to thinking when I was reading these posts of something you and I have mentioned before about how extreme belief systems seem to attract folks with mental issues. I think it’s kind of the same shit, different flavor, if they go deep into religion or deep into politics, there’s just so many similarities.

T: Yeah, definitely.

S: But anyway, how I’m doing personally – I’m very glad she’s no longer suffering physically. She had a recurrence of lung cancer and that is a horrible way to die.

T: She was a smoker?

S: Oh yeah, yeah. Big time smoker. I remember there were times we’d be driving – this is back in the 60s and 70s, and we’d be driving in the car, four kids and two adults and the windows all rolled up, the air conditioning on, and they’d be chain smoking, both of my parents. We’d beg them to please stop and roll down the windows, and they’d be ehhhh, stop your whining, it’s not that bad. So anyway. Truthfully though, the loss that I feel; it’s not really the loss of her. It’s not the loss of my mom. It’s more the loss of what I never actually had in a mother.

T: Wow, yeah.

S: Over the years I’ve talked with my therapist about that a lot, and I do think that I grieved that loss many years ago. At the moment, her actual physical death – this may sound horrible, but it just feels pretty anti-climactic, you know?

T: Mmm.

S: It also has me thinking Tracey, that in another episode on another day, I think it would be really good for us to delve into how the more blatant failures of our parents set us up to be drawn into these unhealthy, controlling belief systems, and how it solidifies that core belief that we are unworthy; that message we received in these dysfunctional, unhealthy, abusive families, or neglectful. There’s a whole lot of stuff there, and I think it does set people up.  I know it set up me and you, for sure.

T: Yes, it did. All of that. First of all Sharon, I am so sorry. I know we’ve talked privately – I lost my parents very young so in many ways I’ve been saved from some of the turmoil I know has been involved in your life, and I think – we’re also recording this after the death of Loren Cunningham, and I found some really interesting articles on what does it mean to grieve when someone has been an abuser? Lots of stuff to go into that topic. Even in this though, I think this is so important, even for the topics we’re about to go into; picking up part two of the book reviews that we’re doing. There’s this great meme that I had put up in Feet of Clay.cultsisters on Instagram. It’s a cartoon mode of these two parents and they’re saying to their little child playing on the floor, we’re not going to mess you up like our parents messed us up. The little kid is playing with the rattle with a thought bubble; no, you’re going to mess me up with a new kind of fucked up.

[laughter]

T: I saw that and I was like, this is so true. Both the story you’re coming out of, and mine, we were going to do it so differently. That brings us up to kind of the differently that we did (at least at the beginning) adopt and all of that fucked-up-ness that we’re going to talk about.

S: Yes, yes, yes.

T: Mm mm. So as a reminder to everyone – and again, please pop back to part one, because there’s some good stuff in both of these books, but we bucketed them into some topics to make it a little bit easier to talk about. In part one we covered spiritual justification and manipulation – what I like (my new favorite word) hubris. Black and white thinking, suffering as Christians – and those will start to appear a little bit into this episode as well. Of course, the bucket of Jim Bob Duggar and Michelle Duggar, and then the reality show was not really so real – shock, shock, shock.

S: Not real, not real, not real!

T: Not real. We ended it in the bucket of having lots of kids, which we shared a little bit of our experience with that, and of course, just lightly touched on the financial implications of all those kids.

S: Right.

T: So a lot of buckets. What did you call the first one?

S: The shit ton of shit, and all the little buckets of shit.

[laughter]

S: Our next topic that we’re going to start on is child abuse. You know Tracey, right before we started to record this, it hit me about – hmm, this is kind of serendipitous of this, the timing of this, as I’ve been contemplating my mother and my childhood. Is that a sign perhaps? We definitely need to explore that parental stuff in the upcoming episode. You know how we’re into signs!

T: We are into signs! We do still love our signs. But honestly it’s really why these topics are so important. We bucketed them into topics, but they really are what I like to call, that spider web of how they just have tentacles that reach into so many aspects of our lives. When I was thinking I was like, yes, we are mothers who had mothers who are now having children who are becoming mothers, and it’s the cycle that just keeps going on and on. Whether we have our daughters or our sons. You know Sharon, you and I are in a place where we can look back and we’ve learned and we’ve grown, and it’s an opportunity for us to really bring some healing to the generations. I know that’s our goal.

S: Yes, absolutely. When I think of the topic of abuse, to me there are multiple forms of abuse. Of course, there’s the spanking rituals and that stuff we’ve talked about before, and we’ll talk about more as well. But there’s also the emotional and psychological suppression and manipulation that comes with the entire fundy belief system.

T: Yes, and I don’t think we can really overstate that. We have talked about being spanked. I know I’ve been spanked; there are people in different corners of America that have been spanked. But being spanked in conjunction with this really insidious mental and emotional abuse is a whole entire package of child abuse.

S: It is. And in reading Jill’s book, I can see so much of what she went through; what Michelle and Jim Bob justified with the bible, Tracey – I see it now so clearly, it is parental abuse. As we mentioned in part one, I don’t think Jim Bob changed. I think circumstances simply revealed who he truly was all along. Little kids who are compliant, they’re easy, but you start bucking dad’s demands, and you see who he really is. As they got older that’s what happened.

T: Mmhmm.

S: I’m going to pull a quote right now from Jill’s book. My parents liked to use role play to prepare us for life. Now, Tracey, I look at that as grooming and systematic fear conditioning. That’s really what it is.

T: Yes, it is.

S: Back to Jill. Okay, mom would say at random, many times each week, usually during family bible time in the evening. She would say, what if somebody comes up to you and says hey Joseph, why don’t you read this book right here? It’s got a witch in it. What do you say? And Joseph would deliver his line right on cue; I’m a Christian. I’m not able to do that. Others may, we may not.

T: And there’s that hubris again.

S: Yep. Others may; you may not. So Tracey, when you see this as role playing – I do believe there are good ways to help kids role play to learn things, but this is role playing that’s different. This is suppression.

T: I’m so horrified by this, and yes – you and I, we’re theatre kids. Put us in a costume, we love to role play. Actually, do some studies on child development and it’s how they work out their childhood, by getting to pretend to be mothers and all that stuff, but this is some evil, insidious shit. It’s interesting that they’re doing this role playing, when in the late 80s it was the role-playing game of Dungeons and Dragons that set the entire country ablaze with the Satanic Panic.

S: Ohhhhh yeah.

T: They were claiming that people were being so entrenched in this game that they were walking out of the door never to be seen again, because Satan got a hold of them.

S: [laughter]

T: It’s just – they really did believe in the satanic reality of him being at play in our lives.

S: I’ve got a true, funny aside – you know this whole thing about books with witches and oh no, oh no! The Harry Potter series – so, 1997 I think it was, maybe it was later, but my twins, my youngest kids – they were in public school for the first time ever. Before that they were home schooled or in a private Christian school. We’re also going to church, and we’re hearing the pastor preaching against Harry Potter, right?

T: Of course.

S: And they come home with these Harry Potter books, because they’re reading it in class. And I think to myself, oh no, oh no, the influence of Satan, the influence of witchcraft, what do I do, how do I intervene? I just intuitively knew, if you just ban it that’s not going to do anything. It’s not going to help. So my brilliant idea is I’m going to read it myself, and I’m going to highlight and mark up these things that are in it that go against God; that are going to grieve the heart of God; that are dangerous about witchcraft, and then I can talk with my kids about the problems. The biggest problem, Tracey, is that as I’m reading it, I thought it was a great book.

T: Even then you thought it was a great book.

S: Even then! I’m reading it going, this is a really good book! And the themes of good and evil aren’t about witchcraft and demons, they’re about human nature. Anyway.

T: They’re about human nature. Yeah, it’s so interesting – did you let them read it?

S: Oh yeah, they finished reading it, and then we read them altogether after that, but my book review for that series would be 50 out of a possible 5 stars.

T: Yes. If listeners have heard other episodes, you’ll know Sharon always works in a Harry Potter reference, and here she did it again.

S: Maybe not always, but a lot.

T: It’s funny because I also read the first one and of course I was trying to find where this would be a problem, and it came down to unicorn blood needing to be spilled (if I have that right) and thinking oh this is such a bad thing, to talk about blood sacrifice to my kids.

[laughter]

T: And hello, that’s what the entire basis of Jesus is built on, so talk about the disconnect there.

S: Oh my god, what irony.

T: It is such irony. But to that point of the Satanic Panic and the witches, and them being conditioned in the Duggar household to not even read a book with anything in that, we cannot overstate, and we really have under estimated the damage that we have done to little children, to their psyches, by having the adults of their world really enforce this belief in the reality of Satan, and how Satan can get a hold on them depending on their behavior. I’ve heard from so many stories of those people who have been deconstructing, and you can see it in Jill’s book, just the fear. You talk about conditioning and fear, and we did that. Kids have an active imagination, and you basically are telling them that Satan can come in and grab a hold of their lives if they don’t … do a, b, c or d.

S: Yeah. It’s fucked up.

T: It is. So you have that psychological pressure right; you have to obey because Satan is going to get a hold of you, and then you mix that with the physical beatings, the physical pain, and you’re reinforcing this on both the psychological and the physiological side and I’m telling you Sharon, that is some fucked up child abuse, right there.

S: Yeah. It is. Here’s a quote from Shannon’s book. I hated spanking, and I would not do it if I were to have children all over again. The deal was you were not supposed to do it angry, but even for me it could feel like a muddled line sometimes. When your kid is screaming in your ear at 120 decibels, your blood is practically curdling inside you. You’re only human. That muddled line is what makes children and discipline a dangerous business. When does “faithful discipline” turn into abuse? How would a child know the difference between a proper expectation of obedience, and an improper one?

T: Hmmm.

S: Tracey, I want to say that that whole thing about the disconnection in the parent, where you have to dissociate with this idea that I don’t want to discipline out of anger – I get that, yes. We don’t want to be reactionary and rageful and vengeful – this bad side of anger. But when you show no anger, when you show no emotion, when you cloak it all in this is what God wants me to do, and then you’re smacking your kid? I mean, that disconnect is – I think – more damaging than impatience and fury. I really do.

T: Yes. And we do cover this topic throughout different episodes because it’s so intertwined with this mindset and this fundamentalist teaching. Like I said, this is a long journey and we continue to unpack and unfold things in our own lives. When I was reading this quote, or one of these quotes along this, I remembered an incident at the house one time. I remembered one of the boys was hitting one of the other boys. I remember being frustrated, and I remember saying out loud, we don’t hit each other. And I remember at the time, it hitting me of like, why am I hitting them to teach them not to hit?

S: Oh my god.

T: That just seemed illogical, and I remember walking away and thinking about it more. It wasn’t something I totally dismissed, but already the cracks were beginning to hit of like, that’s the most illogical thing I’ve ever heard in my life.

S: [laughter] Yeah. And you know what’s so funny, is that people who have never been indoctrinated in the bible and religion and fundamental shit – they see that. They can totally see it, and we were completely blinded to the hypocrisy, the irony – yeah.

T: Let me just highlight the last part of her quote. How would a child know the difference between a proper expectation of obedience, and here I am with my own kids. You guys can’t hit, but we can hit you.

S: Right.

T: Really breaks down.

S: It does. Here’s a couple more quotes from Shannon. Feeling that your kids have to turn out a certain way is no way to be a mother, and having to turn out a certain way is no way to be a kid.

T: Mmm.

S: Tracey, that reminds me of that scripture train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he won’t depart from it. The ironic thing is I think the majority of people I know that became fundamentalist when they were teenagers, or whatever, and tried to raise their children up to become godly and got into this extremism, the vast majority of those children – they don’t want anything to do with religion. That’s also the case with our own kids. Most of our kids don’t want a thing to do with this fucked up shit.

T: Yep. That came up in our conversation with Cheers to Leaving. One of the things one of them mentioned is we came at it so hard, we just went into it so hard they’re like, we’re out. We can’t do this.

S: Mmhmm. Here’s another from Shannon. We often charge children with the duty to respect authority, but what about our duty as adults to respect the child? That is not in the bible, therefore as a fundamentalist, as an evangelical, the idea of respecting your child as an autonomous human being, deserving of respect – that’s nowhere in there, right? Because parents rule and husbands rule. Yet, in your heart of hearts if you’re quiet, you believe, you know that your child deserves respect, but the bible tells you otherwise. Here’s the next quote from Shannon. And please, don’t tell your children they have terrible, evil hearts, unless you want to be remembered as the one who crushed their beautiful soul.

T:  Mmm, mmm, mmmh. That’s quote to be cross-stitched, Sharon.

S: Mmhmm.

T: That is something that when I read, it really jumped out at me. You know, we had mentioned I think at the beginning, that Shannon has so many quotable quotes. There’s so many poignant one-liners like this. I think if you are reading this book and you’re not familiar with Sovereign Grace then you may not understand the culture of abuse that was prevalent in those churches. If you remember, the author of God, the rod, and your child’s bod, was written by Larry Tomczak, who with CJ Mahaney founded People of Destiny churches that went on to be the Sovereign Grace family. Shannon, I would say, goes light on the spanking quotes, because it really was such a culture of abuse, for all parents that were raising their kids. We’re going to talk about it little bit as we get to that bucket, but really I’m convinced that it’s part of the root of the sexual abuse culture that began to unfold in both the Duggar household as well as in the Sovereign Grace Ministries. Because of this conditioning, and because of the other buckets, of being able to accept suffering, being able to beat and really abuse each other, really gave rise to some of the things in the sexual realm that we’re going to see.

S: Right. And I know we’ll go deeper in another episode, but that whole foundational idea of having evil hearts – that is huge, Tracey. The message that our parents – not religious, but dysfunctional, unhealthy, abusive, neglectful parents – the message that our parents gave you and me growing up was that we were bad. We were not worthy. We were not deserving of consideration, or unconditional love. That was the message. But we could see in their own lives that their lives were a mess, right? So we at least had that to balance it out. But then you get into the bible, where you have this supposed God who loves you so much, but you can’t have that love, you can’t receive that love unless you agree to judge and convict yourself of being evil and unworthy in your heart of hearts, in the core of who you are. And that is horrific. I didn’t ever see it before, and I see it more and more clearly every day that goes by.

T: Yes, and why children of trauma are so much more susceptible to this message. They already accepted that about themselves, right?

S: Yep. Let me read this next quote. This one’s from Jill’s book. Though I love my parents, and it made a lot of sense that they would want to protect and care for their child (she’s talking about her oldest brother Josh) I couldn’t help but think about the lengths that pops had gone in order to guard Josh’s privacy, and keep him from being publicly humiliated. So much stuff at play with that. So much stuff. You’ve got Jim Bob Duggar basically protecting his kingdom; protecting his finances; protecting his public image, his cashflow, and maybe valuing a son more than a daughter. I think that’s something that if you buy into the bible’s view of men and women, you can’t help but value a son higher than a daughter.

T: Mmhmm. And if you sit on top of a teaching that believes that any bad thing that happens to us, that God can just turn it over for good, you also discount the immense damage that was done to his daughters. The immense damage that was done that he did not stick up for them, he did not protect them, he did not intervene on their behalf.

S: Right. Okay. Let’s jump to the next topic. This does include more about child abuse, but I want to talk about Jill’s references to IBLP, that’s the Institute in Basic Life Principles, founded by Bill GotHard…

[laughter]

S: So things that are included when she references IBLP: you see justification for child abuse, you see justification for the suppression of women, and a whole lot of fear and guilt. A whole lot of it. Here’s a quote from Jill. Like all good IBLP parents, mom and pops believed their adult children, even those of us who were married and starting to have families of our own, were still under their parental authority. Whaaaaat??

T: That one just blows my mind, because even in the fundy circles of adhering to the bible – that is anti-biblical. You’re supposed to leave to cleave. I didn’t understand that thread through the whole book.

S: Also, how much fucked up and even weirder shit is actually biblical, Tracey?

[laughter]

T: I know, I’m just saying there’s enough bad stuff to follow. You don’t have to make up stuff.

S: Right, like the one where God bans eating shellfish, but it’s okay to have slaves? There’s a meme out there that I totally adore. And you can’t touch or even be near a woman when she’s menstruating. So like, okay – yeah. But you’re right, it doesn’t fit with the bible, the idea that he would have authority over his adult children.

T: Until they’re married. He would absolutely have authority over his adult children, but once they marry that passes over to the husband in this wonderful butt of a world.

S: But he’s claiming it, and Jill is saying that that was taught in IBLP!.

T: I know! That’s what I’m saying; okay. Usually you can go, you know what, the bible makes a case for that. That one, I can’t see a biblical case for it.

S: I’m with you on that. But there also must have been a little bit of that IBLP influence leaking into Last Days Ministries. Because I do remember wondering – this was after Keith arranged my engagement to one of the elders, Martin. I was 18 years old and Keith literally proposed to me and then sends Martin in afterwards. Anyway, sorry, I’m getting down a track. Anyway, I think there was a question in my mind; did they need to get my father’s permission first? I don’t remember what happened with that, but I did have this sense of maybe they’re supposed to get the father’s permission. That could have been from IBLP stuff.

T: Well, it was, and I don’t know if where the fundy circles and IBLP meet, they bleed into so many other of the disciplines, but my former spouse absolutely called my father and asked for permission, and that was something that as many of the younger couples were getting engaged, that was expected. Remember, I went to the Bill Gothard Basic Youth seminar and he was very clear that even if your parents were unsaved, God would still use them, because he (being God) abides by the chain of command. So at this time my father is not a believer, but my soon-to-be-ex, eventually-to-be-ex husband did call him and ask for his blessing and permission. Of course my dad immediately called me afterwards and told me he was going to ask me. That’s the way my family is. He said I just thought that was very weird. I think it’s very weird in this day and age – and this is coming from a military, pretty much into the hierarchy, he liked people to obey him – and he thought it was weird.

[laughter]

S: Oh man, but even outside of fundy, evangelical – shall we call them evie – fundy/evie circles, there is sort of a cultural idea that a man should ask a father’s permission. I don’t know what that’s all rooted in, maybe 100s of years ago there was some sort of protection in that. But to me it just screams that the daughter is a piece of property. She’s chattel, and her father gets to make decisions for her, until her husband gets to make decisions for her.

T: Yeah, and I have adult children who are really pushing back on a lot of the common wedding ceremonies. You can see that, as the bride is passed from her father to her husband. You can do that obviously, for great reasons, and following tradition, but that is something you can completely make that case for as well. I am under my father’s authority, and now through his act of marriage, I am being passed to my husband’s authority.

S: Yeah, well the words are who gives this woman in marriage? And the father gives. You can’t give something that you don’t own, right? Where’s the ownerships?

T: Yes.

S: You’re right; so much of this is layered into our culture. It’s funny how subtle traditions can really support and strengthen unhealthy beliefs, and we don’t even see it necessarily.

T: We don’t even notice it.

S: We don’t make the connections. Yeah. What’s the next topic, Tracey?

T: So the next topic is Josh Duggar and the sex abuse. For those of you who don’t know, Sovereign Grace came apart at the seams because they also had a sex abuse scandal. I touched on it a little bit earlier, but it is this system. We’ve touched on several buckets, but the system of purity culture, that system of physical beatings and instant obedience; that culture of being able to accept the suffering – that creates an entire landscape. I call it a Petrie dish for sexual abuse to just get birthed.

S: Mmhmm. I think you are so right, because the shame that gets instilled with purity culture; the idea that anything sexual in us is bad until we’re married, so the self-suppression, the self-loathing, the attempt to shove it down, shove it down, shove it down. I remember hearing this thing from a therapist, that what we resist will persist.

T: Mmmm.

S: And I think it becomes worse. I think that by not acknowledging or just embracing and understanding normal human sexuality, it does create these perversions. It creates the need to keep everything in the dark and not have open discussions, and that’s just unhealthy, every which way.

T: It is, for the abuser, and for the victim. The victims are also taught to suffer in silence. What was it about them that they did this, so they’re in shame, they’re in fear, they’re in a state where they embrace a hard thing without being able to bring it into the open, so then you have all of these young males coming into puberty and not understanding. That was the part in Sovereign Grace, if you read a lot of the testimonies, it was as these young kids were coming of age, they were happening in the Sunday Schools and where the teenagers had access to younger kids. No one has really looked at the root of that, I think because they also embrace that well, all our hearts are evil, we are all just one step from doing some terrible thing against God, and they don’t realize that they have created this culture of perversion and they’re still not addressing it. No one, even in the Josh Duggar sphere or in Sovereign Grace, they don’t get at the root enough. They just talk about the cover up.

S: Yeah, and those who preach so vehemently against sexual immorality – one thing I think you and I have seen in our many, many years, in our decades, is sometimes the harder they preach against it, the faster and harder they fall. I almost think it’s like they themselves are battling so, so intensely inside with what they view to be their own sinfulness, they are going to just speak harshly and hard about it to the rest of the world, assuming everybody else has the issue. What’s the line from one of Shakespeare’s plays – methinks the lady doth protest too much.

T: Yep.

S: That’s kind of what I think. Whatever their pet thing is, if they’ve got to preach hard against, I think ohhh, that might just be a little mirror into their own internal life.

T: Might be a little mirror. Mmhmm. Here’s a quote from Jill, from her book. Though I love my parents, and it made a lot of sense that they would want to protect and care for their child (being Josh) I couldn’t help but think about the lengths that pops had gone in order to guard JOSH’S privacy, and keep HIM from being publicly humiliated. [emphasis added]

S: Yep. And you know what, we read that quote a little earlier, but it fits here as well and I think the emphasis here is how much they did try to protect Josh. Ugh. Oh my god.

T: I think in one of the interviews of one of the documentaries, one of the excuses that pops had given is, many people have fallen this way. Josh is not the only one. I think the point that I’m trying to make is, that is the problem.

S: Riiiigght??

T: In healthy circles that are not in these fundy circles, this is not happening. You’re creating this culture.

S: You know, all the uproar over drag queens, and worried about pedophilia and all this sort of stuff – no man, who’s out there molesting children? It’s mostly the fucking religious guys. That’s who’s doing most of this stuff.

T: Yes. What’s your quote – resist, persist…

S: What you resist will persist.

T: Yes. That is at the heart of this.

S: It is. And of course, good old Bill GotHard – his board removed him for inappropriate sexual stuff. So the guy has never married, no kids, and he’s holding up this fucked up standard for everyone else of this sexual suppression?

T: Mmm yes, and there was also a coverup at the highest levels of leadership in Josh Harris’ church, the family of Sovereign Grace. Again, and all because of that obedience. It’s not that they’re so horrified that this sexual abuse happened – I think that’s a lot of why the coverup was kind of natural for them, because they – like you said – have been battling this within themselves. This is why you have to go to these lengths of being modest, because they do believe that their sexuality is just this beast that’s ready to pounce at every moment. They’ve created that. They’ve created these beasts inside.

S: Tracey, I’m thinking right now, what freedom, what beauty, what a wonderful thing to have come out of that and realize that my sexuality, my sexual interest – or not interest, my sexual activity or non-activity is all okay and normal, and there’s no sin. That is just a myth. It’s a fallacy. It’s a lie. How freeing! What a huge weight that just got lifted off of me, and I can’t even imagine going back and living in a mindset where sexuality is equated with evilness.

T: And the disservice that this does to countless kids who are coming into puberty and their own sexual awakening. Talk about child abuse. That is child abuse, to teach them that.

S: It is. Okay.

T: Next bucket.

S: So another theme that I see in Shannon’s book is really exploring the idea of what is the essence of each of our lives? Who are we? What’s our meaning? What’s our purpose, and is that something we get to figure out for ourselves, or is it something that gets imposed upon us? Here’s a quote from Shannon. This is referring to getting married to Josh. I loved this man, and I was happy to be marrying him, but I was betraying so much of myself in the process. As it turned out, I was not really marrying the man I loved. I was marrying the church, and I had not seen that coming.

T: Wow. That’s a very powerful quote. You know, back to witches – because that seems to be a theme we’re returning to – there’s a great, interesting documentary called the Witches of Hollywood.

S: Oooh!

T: I’ll put the connection in our show notes. It explores female power, so it’s really more of a feminist kind of view on the power of witchcraft. I couldn’t help but see our indoctrination through our saved days, that that’s exactly what they were trying to take away from us – our power, and how even in the 60s and 70s, when women and feminists were starting to have more freedom, that’s when the Jesus People and the churches started clamping back down. We bit right into that, Sharon. We explore a lot of that in our Virgins and Volcanos series, so if you’re a new listener and you haven’t yet listened to that series, please go back. Sharon and I get pretty vulnerable and honest about a lot of what Shannon’s saying, about how we got married and basically gave up our power.

S: Well, that basically is the purpose of a woman, right? Shannon says it very clearly. Women were supposed to get married and have children. There had been a lot of pressure to give up my dreams. Again, that thread is throughout her book. So this common experience that women in fundamentalist and evangelical circles have is you have to everything about yourself aside to fulfil the purpose that the bible and the men in church say is your purpose.

T: Yeah. I think it’s especially worse in the churches in America. There’s another documentary (seems like I’ve been listening to a lot of documentaries) called Savior Complex on HBO. It talks about how often it’s the young females from America, young white females that go over to start these orphanages or ministries in places like Africa, and this one particularly in Uganda. I was thinking about us, Sharon you and I, being in kind of a para-church ministry, and how that did afford people like you and I, more purpose than just getting married to have babies. We wrestled, should we be single for God? There’s only two reasons to get married, right? What are they?

S: To stop yourself burning in sexual sin and lust, or to promote the Kingdom of God.

T: To promote the Kingdom of God. We had limited opportunities, as single women. I think that she calls that out so beautifully, that if you’re in the mainstream church in America, that really is kind of your trajectory, to end up being married and having children. That’s actually one of the reasons I was drawn to Last Days Ministries because there was a pathway. We did do more. We were able to work, we were able to work at a ministry and be able to feel that we did have some sense of purpose apart from that, but I know as soon as I got married that definitely shifted. I felt that layer of submission.

S: Mmhmm. So one other aspect in the high control churches or ministries, para-churches/cults, is that even if you accept the idea that your purpose is to be married for the Kingdom of God, you still lack a certain amount of control and self-determination, because someone else – the men, the leaders, are going to either highly influence your decision or sometimes dictate it to you. Here’s another quote from Shannon. Young women were especially at risk of not having the final say in the choice of a spouse, their voice in the matter getting buried under a parent, pastor or suitor. Many young people were at risk of committing to unions for life that were not well suited for them, or for the wrong reason.

T: Mmhmm.

S: Yeah. Of course, that hits home for me, because Keith Green is the one who set up my marriage when I was 18 years old.

T: Yeah, it hits home for not just you and I as we’ve told our stories, but so many. There were so many in our ministry and in the church I ended up going to afterwards where that was the case. I think I shared this story before – it was my young daughter hitting puberty who looked at me and said I will have sex outside of marriage, because I’ve watched all of you all rush into marriage just to avoid having sex and you have lost that ability to make a good, wholesome, healthy choice in this kind of set up. Shannon has another quote which really, I think, is one of her more poignant ones. I had a better sense of personal autonomy before coming to the church. Just a few short years earlier I had broken up with my college boyfriend because I realized that he felt entitled to my body. That was the end of that, but in church, men still feel entitled to my body, only instead of using anger, they used theology to gain control of it.

S: Yes.

T: Sharon, this is what I’ve seen is the whole problem with that submission ideology. For us as single people, we have to be under somebody and even when we get married we give over that control of our lives and our leadership to our husbands, who are now also in control in some kind of church hierarchy. I definitely felt, when I got married I actually added a layer. I was in submission in this leadership structure, and then I added another layer, which was my husband.

S: Mmhmm. So, another thing Shannon talks about is a loss of personal autonomy in the other relationships within her church. They had these care groups, these are like small groups – very similar Tracey, to what you and I went through. We called our small groups at Last Days.

T: Yes, the small group.

S: Here’s what she has to say about that. Anything about your personal life, marriage, children, parenting, or spiritual life was up for discussion at care group. You got in deep, and you got in quick. You never knew exactly what was going to happen. Sometimes you left feeling encouraged and wonderful. Other times, embarrassed and exposed. They could put you in a vulnerable spot in front of others, but never right at first – because they reel you in, right, Tracey? They reel you in slowly.

T: They do. Definitely. And we absolutely did that in our commune setting, especially when we started training people, before they moved into our commune through the training program. That was expected as a part of holy living. Confess your sins one to another. It was something we knew we had, living in community, and Youth With A Mission practised that, and the Agape Force practised that – all ministries that we’ve mentioned in other episodes. But for the churches in America that were really rolling this out, they ended up getting pretty heavily involved in what would be known as the shepherding movement. That was basically a movement of spiritual abuse that people just got involved into the intimate details of everyone’s lives. A lot of people were hurt and broken- very similar to what you and I experienced in the ministry was setting was happening in these churches, and of course Shannon’s church Sovereign Grace was one of the leaders in this home group movement that caused so much damage to its congregation.

S: Yeah. I know we’re going to go a little deeper into the ideas of the suppression of women and women’s bodies, and empowerment, disempowerment, but one thing that’s really just kind of ringing true to me right now Tracey, is the fact that the overarching message of Christianity, that Jesus died for you and therefore you are not your own. You belong to God. You have no right to yourself; everything belongs to God – which is great when we’re talking about this invisible sky god that you can maybe interpret for yourself, but then no, you have the leadership structure of parents and husbands and church or ministry leadership that are now going to speak for God, and therefore your submission needs to be to them. That is handing over so much control of our lives, and it’s baked into the bible. You just can’t escape it.

T: Yes. Yes. It is baked into the bible. That’s where I talk about I added an extra layer – it hits all Christians, right? It is so much part of you die to yourself and you give up a portion of your life. But it’s particularly hard on women and children, because they are under a human layer of leadership. A very controlling aspect of that human layer.

S: Mmhmm. Yep.

T: And I think Shannon does a fabulous job of unpacking what that really does to women, and how she ends up unfolding it as the biblical woman.

S: Right. Here’s another quote from her. I conformed myself to fit into the quietest, smallest shell possible, and the shell came to feel almost normal. But not really, I was always working at staying small.

T: Ohh.

S: I think you and I have touched on this before, that scripture about the gentle and quiet spirit. That was hard for me, and I think hard for you. We’re naturally loud and opinionated, but feeling that need to conform and squish ourselves down – it’s self-suppression to try to hit this unrealistic ideal of the gentle and quiet spirit.

T: Paul, when we interviewed him in our episode 26, nails this on the head when he said basically we were trying to get rid of our personalities. And, we were.

S: Yep, we were. Alright, another quote from Shannon. Being myself isn’t nearly as exhausting as being somebody I am not. The ‘Biblical Woman’ was not a real woman. She was a picture, a projection, a product. A man-made product, literally. An ideal to achieve. You can order whole books on Amazon and become her too, but she wasn’t me, and she wasn’t tons of women. She was the woman they wanted. That’s all. The woman THEY wanted.

T: So Sharon, who do you think the they is in this?

S: Oh. Well, I think it’s the religious, patriarchal power structure that depends on and needs women to do what the fuck they want them to do.

T: And it goes back centuries Sharon. I think that’s the chilling thought. I just reread Proverbs 31 for another project I was doing, and that is one fantasy of a woman. I’m just gonna say. As soon as I reread that I’m like, yeah, this is a male fantasy of a woman, if I’ve ever read one.

S: Mmhmm. Okay, more from Shannon. The denial of the feminine is planted firmly into the heart of Christianity, and a shocking amount of that denial is accomplished through the story of Eve. Within the first few chapters of Genesis, Eve’s wisdom, personhood and dignity are called into question or negated altogether. Meanwhile, man’s dominance, superior intelligence and superior purpose over women is established.

T: Centuries ago, Sharon. Centuries ago.

S: Millenia.

T: Mmm. Another part in that quote. It’s hard to see relationships, families, churches, clearly, when you are in the middle of them. Any system that enables men to hold authority over women and husbands over wives is unreasonable and outdated. This practice robs a woman of her whole personhood. Her fight to self-ownership and self-government are at best undermined. The fulness of her identity is denied. I mean, this is what nails it. When you hear arguments that it’s only this extreme cult over here, or this high control religious sect over here – this Sharon, is at the heart of Christianity.

S: And Tracey, you know, the fact is we accepted it as truth, right? It’s all true. And if it is true, then that whole umbrella diagram and the idea of women’s modesty and submission – I mean, it all makes sense, if it’s true.

T: It all makes sense. And that’s why we accepted it. I mean, I didn’t even question it. Which brings us back to Jill, another quote from her book all about that whole modesty point you just brought out. We knew how important modesty was. None of us wanted to be accused of being ‘revealing’. As I grew older, the fear that I might be immodest and cause someone to have bad thoughts would only get stronger. Us girls had been told often how much harder it was for boys to keep their thoughts pure.

S: Oh, the poor boys.

T: Oh Sharon, that just irks me. Another quote: The most dangerous and destructive sins of all were around sex and temptation.

S: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

T: And that just so irritates me. I know in both of these books, we’ve had to put out Sharon, that for these systems to work – this is where we might get a little controversial – women have had to be complicit to accept this stuff. My story, your story, Shannon’s story, Jill’s story, are all supported by us women.

S: And I do struggle with that word complicit. I mean, I get it. I think you wind up being both a victim and perpetrator, but I think you are victim first. That I really do believe. You get the technical definition – I knew we were going to talk about this so I looked it up. Complicit means choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act, especially with others – having complicity – or the British version is involved with others in reprehensible or illegal activity. But I want to go back to that other one – choosing to be involved in an illegal or questionable act. In Shannon’s case and you and me, yeah, we chose to get into these belief systems. But once you’ve chosen that belief system, the choices kind of end there, right? You’re kind of stuck. But you’re right, we perpetrated it as well. It’s just kind of a mixed up shit bag to me.

T: It is hard and I think this is part of why this is controversial. Obviously if you’ve been hurt by a person who did this to you; to be able to step back far enough and to see where they were hurt and adopted this – I mean, that’s why we call it the shit ton shit of shit. When look at Jill, I think listening to her story about her parents, it is hard not to see Michelle as complicit, and I don’t know what you think about that.

S: Yep, no, you’re right. You’re right. She definitely is complicit. I guess I still need to weed through my own experience some more, in this.

T: And that’s the hard point. At what point do we join in and turn off some of our own instincts? In some of our conversations about the punishment of children, you and I have shared pretty much at length where we’ve come from on that, but you look at Jill’s story and you start to get into being tricked into signing contracts, and some of the stuff Jim Bob was doing – that to me is a more clear line, because that’s not for the gospel. They can convince themselves it is.

S: I’d be curious to know if Michelle was aware, and if she was aware, did she agree with it? Did she disagree and speak privately behind closed doors? Who knows. Okay, I’m digressing into too much speculation so I’m going to stop and let’s get back to the point.

T: Yeah, but I think that’s why these conversations are so important, because what Shannon’s book is to women – a lot of women are reading this; Jill’s book, a lot of people have been caught up in that are reading it, and we as women who have bought into this really have to do some self-examination. One of the great memes that I see fits in with this, that I came across a couple of weeks ago is it’s an angry mother earth right, because of all the floods and all the stuff that’s happening with the weather, and the meme is saying mother earth is not having any of this abuse, neglect and disregard anymore. I think that there is – we’ve likened it to a #metoo movement of spiritual trauma, and we women are starting to wake up and take back our power and say we’re not going to be complicit, we’re not going to be cooperative in this anymore.

S: Right. Well, understanding and recognizing the suppression tactics that push to be submissive to husbands, to men, to fathers, to leaders, that buy into you need to have a gentle and quiet spirit – yeah, shove that the fuck away. That’s what we need to do.

T: Yeah, and where we have recognized our wrongdoing, making those right. Going in and saying hey I got this wrong, and making it right.

S: Definitely. Definitely.

…

S: Hey listeners, if you’ve been enjoying our discussion on the themes in the books Counting the Cost by Jill Duggar and The Woman They Wanted by Shannon Harris, we thought you might be interested in another podcast with a great episode that really goes into depth in chronological order – a review of Jill’s book, Counting the Cost. Here’s the info:

Hey, it’s Garvi here from the Leaving Eden podcast. I want to tell you about our review of Jill Duggar’s new book, Counting the Cost. You will get to hear my co-host, cult expert, and fundamentalism survivor, Sadie Carpenter, give in depth analysis of all of the details in this book, that might otherwise fly under the radar. Look for this episode: Leaving Eden podcast, episode 149, on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

…

S: Well, I was really glad to hear in both cases, Shannon and Jill, they got into therapy. For Jill, I’m pretty sure she went to a “Christian” therapist…

T: Is that like the gateway, Sharon?

[laughter]

S: The gateway out. Well, I did go to a Christian therapist at one point, and it was basically just do better at obeying the bible and submitting, so it really didn’t help me.

T: And that is the danger. That’s the warning to our listeners; if it basically is telling you you’re not holy enough, then get out of that relationship.

S: Yep. So Shannon though, she was in secular therapy, and in her book she lists this thing called the personal bill of rights, and I thought it was brilliant. Too long for us to go into here, but again, another reason why everybody should read both these books. I’m gonna read a couple of quick quotes from her that to me, relate to the whole idea of therapy. One is: It is not enough to call something love. I need love to feel like love. And that is so powerful, because if you’re being told you’re being loved, and it doesn’t feel like love? It probably isn’t love.

T: That’s so important.

S: And therapy, especially non-religious therapy, will really help us to identify, to look at, and to discover true love for ourselves, self-worth, boundaries, and there’s another thing that she mentions – not necessarily related to therapy. Remember that children’s story The Giving Tree?

T: I so love this book.

S: Yeah. I remember reading it and thinking wow, how beautiful, how powerful, this idea of complete sacrifice down to nothing. Here is Shannon’s take on it. This story always felt a bit confusing to me as a child. Was it a story about a generous tree, or was it about a selfish boy? Or was it a story about a tree who gave too much? And Tracey, yeah.

T: Poignant. This was a very poignant point in her book.

S: Yes. Because in fundamental and evangelical Christianity we are called upon to give too much. To give everything.

T: Everything.

S: To give ourselves away, to betray ourselves, and it’s painted as being holy and virtuous. It’s not.

T: It’s not. And that part about love feeling like love, and this is what we do to our queer brothers and sisters all the time in Christianity. We can put some of this at James Dobson’s feet in his Tough Love book, that basically twists that love so that we’re being harsh and condemning, and many of us are suffering under a love that doesn’t feel like love at all. Even in our marriages. Our children feel it, and in our marriages as well.

S: Yeah. It doesn’t feel like love, because it isn’t love. It isn’t.

T: Mm mmh.

S: Okay, last topic, or bucket or whatever we’re calling these things. This one gets me really, really animated Tracey. I’m really passionate about this. Throughout both of these books you see woven through from top to bottom, fear and guilt, and false guilt, and shame. These are the tools used to control and manipulate. Absolutely. So fear – I mean, ultimately in the Christian theology, it’s hell. Right? That’s the thing we have to ultimately be afraid of. But outside influences – anything different, any sort of disobedience to parents or authority or God – that is the road to hell. So the slightest misstep is something to be terrified of. It really does also perpetuate a loss of connection with family and community. So fear is a huge driving force.

T: Yes, yes, yes. And you get so conditioned to that then it becomes a self-fulling attribute. Well you feel guilty about that, so it’s proof that the Holy Spirit didn’t want you to do this. So it twists on itself.

S: Right! This whole thing about guilt. So there are false and arbitrary standards that we’re made to feel guilty about, whether it’s the idea of clothing, or watching certain media, or listening to songs or dancing.

T: Sex, sex, sex!

S: Oh yeah, sex, sex, sex for sure. Also this idea of absolute obedience, that if you are even slightly not fully obedient, then that’s something to feel really guilty about. I tell you, there’s something I love Tracey that was a huge eye opener for me. My secular therapist, he was and is culturally Jewish. Not really practising Judaism, but that’s how he was raised. He told me about when he went away to college, and he was in the cafeteria and was offered a ham sandwich. He had never eaten ham in his life, and he thought, oh he can’t do that because what would his mother think? But he took it, and he ate it, and he said it was incredibly delicious, and he was crushed and overwhelmed with guilt because he ate ham. Okay. If you were not raised in a kosher religion, the idea that somebody would feel overwhelming guilt for eating ham seems silly and ridiculous, but the fact is so many of these things that we are conditioned to feel guilty about? It’s just a ham sandwich. Whether it’s a woman wearing pants, or listening to music that has a bit of a drumbeat. Or masturbating. Or disagreeing with or questioning your parents or leadership. The guilt you feel is not evidence of the Holy Spirit’s conviction. It’s conditioned false guilt, and it’s used to manipulate and control you.

T: That is so good, Sharon.

S: So what I started to do any time I felt guilty – cos man, I could feel guilty about a lot of stuff…

T: Because we were conditioned to!

S: Yeah! I ask myself the question, is this real, or is it a ham sandwich?

T: That’s a great shirt!

[laughter]

S: More merchandise!

T: Yes, people would be like, what is that all about? That would be great. Here’s a quote from Jill, and this is the part that is woven throughout our interviews with Abigail and Chad from IBLP, because they were masters at weaving in so much guilt. Quote, Jill: Do you want to get as close to that line as you can? Do you want to walk so near that you might possibly be pulled into the world, or do you want to steer as far away from it as you can get? And there was so much fear that they would even get close to the line that they would be pulled into the world.

S: Right.

T: For them, the world wasn’t just the world, it was demonic strongholds, so that was a whole other level of fear.

S: Yeah. Here’s another literal quote from Jill. I love this. Fear and guilt, guilt and fear. At times it was almost hard to breathe.

T: Hooo. Wow. That is just stated so perfectly because we can relate to that, right? This is why it’s so important for people to be telling these stories, and for us to be listening to these stories.

S: Mmhmm.

T: So that was the last bucket, Sharon.

S: I think that’s the last bucket. I think we should start wrapping this thing up, Tracey.

T: Yeah. So again, these stories – we’re just scratching the surface and talking about how they dovetail into our lives, but please go and read them. I do want to give an update as far as the ones that are mentioned, so in Shannon’s book, Sovereign Grace churches, founded by CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomczak – and we want to say that both of them are currently in ministry today. CJ Mahaney, though there was a big sex scandal and I think he is still under a cloud of that, went to Kentucky to continue the Sovereign Grace churches, of which he is still a leader. Larry Tomczak, while he left Sovereign Grace and had a split with CJ Mahaney, is also still a pastor in my great home state of Tennessee. They deny all of these accusations of course, and have not been accountable, or come forward with any significant or meaningful apologies.

S: Mmm. Sad.

T: Yeah. I will add that in Maryland, where the Sovereign Grace church where Shannon was going to, a lot of their cases were thrown out of court because they exceeded the statues of limitation. They did just extend those statutes, I think, into the 20+ years – I’m not quite sure what. But it does allow some of these cases to be brought back into court, so we’ll keep you updated on that.

S: Oh man. I hope they nail those fuckers. I really do. Okay. Also, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar – I’ve kind of wondered where they’re at now, after the documentary Shiny Happy People, and of course their daughter Jill’s book. As far as I know there’s no more TV show. Maybe they still get royalties from reruns but I don’t know about that. Jill talks about all these rental properties that her dad bought with all the money that the TV show generated, and they were very heavily involved in IBLP. I heard a rumor that they’re like, high up now, and maybe Jim Bob is even running it, but you know Tracey, I really don’t give a shit so I didn’t spend much time looking it up. I really just don’t care.

T: Yeah, I was expecting the whole thing to cave in on itself so I’m pretty stunned it’s still continuing.

S: Yep. Alright, so why don’t we just give our final thoughts here with overall impressions. Why does it matter, and how does this relate to people who are in Christian circles today?  My quick thoughts on it; this idea of the veneration of our denial of self, I think that’s the most unhealthy thing we can do. The idea that we should become less, should become smaller, need to conform, need to submit – you know, I get it, how they twist it to be that’s the answer to solving problems of selfishness and greed, but that’s not the answer.

T: No.

S: I think the ultimate problem is any flavor of Christianity or religion where the bible is claimed to be literal and claimed to be the instruction manual, you’re not going to get away from it. That’s what you’re going to come down to, if you’re trying to be true to it. And I think that if folks could just see the scriptures as more of just like, a nice guide with maybe some stories that could be instructive, a few good ideas, a few – if it could be taken that way. Of course there’s bad ideas too.

[laughter]

T: You’re being very generous Sharon! You’re being very generous.

[laughter]

S: Well, I look at Jill, right? She hasn’t rejected Jesus. She’s trying to walk a line of Christianity that is really more about true love, but you can’t do that and hold to the literal inspiration of every word of the bible at the same time. They’re mutually exclusive. Right?

T: Yeah.

S: I think there’s some irony in the idea of the things we used to say, you know – I once was blind and now I see, and the idea of being born again – we thought those things when we found fundamental Christianity. But now I really feel like I can see, now that I’ve let go of it all.

T: Oh, I know. I think a lot of that, and we’ll get into it in later episodes. Our trauma coming into Christianity was a step forward, and then getting more healthy, and coming out of some of this fear and guilt is now a step forward again. We do not want to take away the steps that Jill’s making. We want to applaud her on that journey, but it is a journey.

S: Yes. It is a journey. And there’s a contrast between those who’ve been raised in it, like Jill, like what we did to our kids, and those of us who chose it, trying to find some escape, some relief from the pain that was our life before. I think people should read both these books.

T: I do too. I think they’re both very good and both unique. I was absolutely surprized – and I’ve mentioned this a couple of times – about how quotable Shannon’s book was. I mean, incredibly poignant. There are so many quotes, so many lines you could just lift out and read on their own, and I thought that was very, very powerful. I also thought that it was still – how do I want to say this – kind of a safe book for people who are still in churches. It’s not caustic, I don’t think it goes into – you know, not like our show Sharon, where we’re talking about this shit ton of shit, that is going to turn people off. I thought her book would be very readable for people still in churches, and that is what I was hoping for. I even thought of sending it to a couple of people myself, of hey, think about this, think about what you’re giving up. I thought that was super, super good. For Jill’s book, I had an overwhelming sense of sadness, because of everything that you can pick up from her story, that she has got a sweet heart.

S: She does.

T: And you can tell that through she’s still trying to walk that line of, you know, she loves her parents, we understand that. I just was very sad that she was so exploited and taken advantage of. Even when she’s trying to tell her story in a very gracious way, I just wanted to throttle her parents. I want to throttle them. So I again, applaud her. I think this is a journey, she’s also a mother herself, she’s coming out of some of these things in a very high-profile environment.

S: Yeah. That’s tough.

T: I think they’re both extremely worth reading, and great for having conversations. Like this one.

S: Yes, they are. Hey, and there’s also – we put a little plug in earlier in our show, but the Leaving Eden podcast; they did a deep dive into Jill’s book, just going into a whole lot of nuance, so I highly recommend you listen to that podcast as well, if this book is of any interest to you at all. Alright. I think I’d like to end with a quote from Shannon’s book. For me, it has been a lesson in boundaries. Each of us alone must advocate for our own health, happiness, and wellbeing. Like the Giving Tree, we may end up giving so much of ourselves that we nearly self-destruct. Perhaps that is because we don’t know our own value.

T: Hmmm.

S: Alright listeners. Contemplate your own value today, because you are worth more than you imagine. Thank you for listening. You want to sign us off here, Tracey?

T: Yeah, very, very well stated. So if you find us on Instagram, Feet of Clay.cultsisters, there’s a link tree there that will take you to all the different places that we are on social media, and also head over to our Facebook community page, where you can have some of these conversations with people like us who have been there, and we’d love to have you reach out.

S: Okay everybody. Thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you in a couple of weeks.

T: Bye bye.