This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 020 – Tracey Calls for Church Accountability: IBLP Child Abuse Spanking Rituals Embraced by Current Evangelical Leaders!

Disclaimer:
REALITY CHECK: when Tracey says she wants to burn down a church, this is FIGURATIVELY speaking, folks!! We in NO WAY recommend or condone or support violence.

August 23, 2023

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon, and we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: I would say we have been in quite a whirlwind these past few months, right Tracey?

T: Yes – maybe not quite as strong as a tornado.

[laughter]

S: Alright, only die-hard Last Days groupies are gonna get that reference.

T: Ohh yes, this podcasting stuff is harder than it looks.

[laughter]

S: Yes it is! It has been very intense. You and I have talked about making sure that we’re staying balanced in our personal lives, right, like attending to our self-care and all that stuff, and I suggested that today I’d like to talk with you Tracey, about how you are doing, what’s weighing on your mind; what you’re feeling good about; what you’re feeling not great about – whatever you want to talk about. So how do you like me putting you on the spot?

T: Oh, that is on the spot, and I think it’s really good because as we’ve mentioned, we’ve started a Facebook community page, and some people have reached out with some super kind words, and there’s a few out there that are making sure that they say that to us – hey, make sure to take care of yourself, because it is a true thing that when you start down this path of opening up all these histories that we’re all dealing with, and then hearing other people’s stories – and then trying to keep up with all of the social media platforms; just to make sure you honor people who are coming to us and opening up their heart. We want to make sure we have time for that and time for our lives, so I think this is a great topic because you and I have made some verbal commitments to each other that we will make sure we’re taking care of our lives and we will hear from one another – like, I can’t do that tonight, I can’t do that today – so, yeah.

S: You mention about the people reaching out to us and I will say that I feel like I want to be able to reach out personally and interact with every single one of them and I feel bad if I don’t, but I’m also recognizing okay, here’s reality, what can I do, what can I not do, and to not try to make myself responsible for the weight of the world. We lived for decades with that right? So I’m trying to let it go.

T: Yeah, let it go. You know, if you’re listening to this – you always made fun of me, well of course if they have it on, they’re listening to it.

[laughter]

T: It’s not a burden. It’s something that fuels us on a deep, deep level, so it’s not that at all as far as this obligation. I have tremendous respect for people’s stories. It means so much to hear from people and how what we have been saying has resonated with them. And then honestly to hear some of the stories from some other ministries where they have just been exploited and abused in ways that we never even were, is an emotional toil. I think someone had mentioned in one of our interviews that we were talking to, that it makes you want to go burn a church.

[laughter]

T: And how I’m doing – I think today when I woke up I did need to take some time, because I’m like, I want to go burn a fucking church. I want to go burn a particular fucking ministry, which we can get into – I can say it if you want me to.

S: I do! Yeah, we’re putting it all out there sister. So talk about that. I know what’s being weighing on you, so spill the beans.

T: Of course, this involves my own family because as people have heard our own stories, and we’ve tried to be as respectful and kind as we can to our exhusbands because we know that none of us were perfect in these marriages, but my particular frustration is it seems my exhusband has taken three steps backwards into some of the more damaging aspects of fundamental Christianity and I’m a little speechless, a little stunned, and of course, I care because it impacts my children.

S: Right. So I know – you and I have talked a bit on the podcast but we talk in private, and I know the agony, the depth of pain you feel as you reflect back on the child discipline, the rigid shit that we were brainwashed with. The spanking rituals – all of those things, and we both see now the damage inflicted on our children and our hearts are broken over it, and we’re trying to do everything we can to help them restore to a sense of love and safety that they should have had from us from the very beginning, and I also hear your incredible frustration and anger and pain, knowing that the father of your children has doubled down on all of that abuse, does not take responsibility for it, does not see it as a problem and is basically shrugging his shoulders with a bit of a weird little smile about it. It infuriates me too, Tracey.

T: Yes, and what makes this so upside down for me is – for listeners, we’ve been divorced since 2006, so this has been a long road. I used to say, up until probably a year and a half ago, we could be the poster couple for going through a divorce and trying to be as kind to one another as possible, and to impact the children the least amount possible. He did that well, and I did that well. There was a lot of healing that the kids needed, so they didn’t want to be time at this house, time at that, so my ex drove extra miles, I made sure my house was always open; we spent holidays together. We made sure the kids were not uprooted as much as possible. We remained friendly – there were a couple of hot spots in there…

S: Well, I just want to say not only did you remain friendly, I remember holidays, Thanksgivings and Christmas, you guys integrated, and I remember thinking wow, this is pretty cool; they’re both supportive, they’re both there for the kids, they’re both doing things I know that I and my ex were not capable of doing.

T: Yeah, and I was so proud of both of us, and I would say it had moved more into a brother sister relationship. We had talked about that – there never was any romantic ties between us, so it was a really easy relationship to fall back into as far as, you’re like my extended family. We grew up – we went through our childhoods together, basically. His family – and so there’s a lot of history there and I think there was a mutual sense of respecting each other. The thing that did change is he got in a relationship with a woman which I was very excited about.

S: Yeah, you were. I remember that. You were happy for him!

T: I was so happy for him, because it was a thing of I want you – I have had my own relationships outside of my marriage, of course it wouldn’t be under what fundys would say was sacred, because I wasn’t married to these people…

S: Living in sin, girl, you were living in sin.

T: I was in sin, but it was healing for me because finally I felt like somebody felt about me the way I think they were supposed to feel about me. And I wanted that for him. I was like, you should have somebody that feels that way about you, so this was very exciting. The problem of this was the church family and this person is so hardcore into all the fundy stuff that we came out of that I was actually watching him coming out of in his beliefs – he was softening up in areas, he was having much better conversations with the kids, he was making efforts to kind of show them that they were important in his life in ways he hadn’t been doing before. So I was seeing this growth, and it was very encouraging to all of us.

S: And then it took a U-turn.

T: And then it took a U-turn, and it’s hardcore U-turn. At the beginning of it I invited this new wife – I actually really could be very good friends with her, we come from a lot of the same histories, all of us who grew up in fundamental Christianity, we have a lot of similar ties, she and her first husband pastored a church in Texas so we know a lot of the same teachers, same things, same people. We had them over to dinner – we’ve had relationships post this marriage, and it all changed when I was driving home from meeting with my high school best friend who was part of a church that was a sister church to Sovereign Grace. For those people who have followed my Instagram stories you can see nods to that, but Sovereign Grace is where Josh Harris came out, Larry Tomczak came out of, CJ Mahoney came out of. They had some sexual abuse lawsuits against their organization for covering things up. Josh Harris I think eventually got out and said I can’t do this anymore, he deconstructed, pulled his books. So I went searching for some of those articles on this church that was affiliated with my home church in El Paso as well as us, raising our children under Larry Tomczak’s teachings.

S: And the book was God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod.

T: And it wrecked me, Sharon.

S: What wrecked you?

T: Reading the articles of the lawsuits against Larry Tomczak. There’s a powerful article called The Ministry of Violence.

S: We’ll put those links to those articles in the show notes.

T: It’s a powerful article about the history of corporal punishment and spanking within America, and particularly within Christianity. It calls out Larry Tomczak’s specifically, and it calls out Michael Pearl’s book which everyone will be familiar with from the interviews we’ve done with Chad and Abigail from Bill Gothard the IBLP. It goes further into the trauma bonding that happens, and the sexual stimulation that can happen through spanking bare bottoms, and really starts to uncover this level of psychological damage that can be created in this environment, and it was the first time that I looked at it through that angle, because when I walked away…

S: How long ago was that Tracey?

T: That was a year and a half ago.

S: So, okay.

T: A year and a half ago. I was late to the party on that, because a lot of this stuff, the news broke in 2013/2014, I think that’s also when Bill Gothard was starting to be exposed. But you and I – we walked away, and we walked away hard.

S: Yeah! We weren’t even – our antenna weren’t up, we weren’t even paying any attention to all this shit and fundamentalism, because we were like yeah, that’s nothing but bullshit, why even bother looking in that direction?

T: Right. And I expected everyone to be falling [from grace]. Remember the song – was it with the Keith as far as um, who will be the next to go…

S: Did you just say was it with The Keith?

T: The Keith – I’m trying to think if that was a Last Days tie in or if it was another segment of my life. Who’ll be the next to go – is there a line in one of his songs? We can cut this out if there’s not.

S: I don’t remember now. You don’t need to cut it out, just keep going girl, ramble on.

T: There was this expectation knowing that a lot of the ways we all lived with that rabid, intense faith, that it has a life cycle. It just is really hard to maintain that, so I’m watching people I went to India with, K P Yohannan over Gospel for Asia having a scandal that involved the FBI. I’m watching Larry Tomczak having a sexual abuse scandal. I’m watching Sovereign Grace and the legal problems they’re having, and of course everyone knows about Hillsong and what’s happening there, and expecting this because that’s been my experience in these circles. What I wasn’t expecting, because I had walked away and had apologized to my children – but it was just that. I lived under this way, they were already the ones kind of leading me out any way, and so I thought it was over. They forgave me, they saw that I wasn’t like that anymore, it was all good, but what I didn’t expect was some unresolved trauma to resurface in one of my kids years later. I didn’t understand it, because I apologized, so I didn’t know what else I could do. I think just being able to read the depths of what this does, that we’ve been hearing in our own interviews with Abigail and Chad, has changed the course of the conversation; has changed the way I can look at that; has changed how I’m having my own relationship because it’s not just this light thing you can apologize for. I can see how we stole aspects of their childhood that they can never get back. I do want to clarify that I don’t walk around beating myself up for that, and I think people have been really great saying hey, we can hear the pain in your voice, we know that you are sorry for that, and I appreciate that because there really is pain when you look at those phases and stages of a little child, and you think at the time they needed to feel safe and nurtured and connected, and you are spanking them in that moment – that’s a heartbreak.

S: Yeah.

T: It’s a heartbreak. It’s not a heartbreak I know I can undo; it’s not a heartbreak that I’m just going to go fold and die in the corner, but I am aware of the weight of what that does.

S: Well, there’s a reckoning.

T: And I own it.

S: Yeah. I mean, there’s a reckoning. It’s one thing to apologize for we stepped on somebody’s toes; it’s another thing to gain more insight and understanding and realize oh my god, I didn’t just step on your toes, I shattered your kneecaps. I broke your back. I did things that have caused lasting damage. It’s not just an oops. When you don’t know, you don’t know what you don’t know. Tracey, you have remained an incredible inspiration to me because you’ve got immense courage to press in when something shows up that’s like, yeah this is a problem, and this is a problem that I inflicted. You do own it, and you’re just beautiful that way, Tracey.

T: Oh well, thank you. So the frustration comes in because you know who’s not owning it? Is the one who is in the belief system that should own it. That is the disparity here that is a chasm of I, who am supposedly the one who has walked away from Jesus and all the spiritual gifts, am able to look at that, own it, and understand how beautiful my children’s forgiveness is to me. That’s a beautiful thing that we can talk through those stories, and cry through those stories, and hope through those stories, and I don’t take that for granted. It’s not just this I went to confession and some priest absolved me of something. The one that is in the belief system that’s supposed to be able to tap into the forgiveness of God the most, is refusing to look into that closet. I know this because in that year and a half ago, I reached out to him and I said it’s really important you and I have a conversation about this. Were you aware of this lawsuit, and this is what we are culpable of. He responded with there’s no need for me to have that conversation with you. My kids are perfectly capable of coming to me if there is anything wrong.

S: So fucked up.

T: That kind of set me off, and was a part of the motivation to do this, because there’s so much wrong with that. I have made it as point as we’ve been talking to other people who are doing these podcasts, and talking to Abigails and Chads, and I have said over and over again, they have taught me. They have given me a window into the struggles they have had to go through. My ex needs to hear those stories. He needs to be able to understand that, because it is very hard when you’ve been traumatized by a person, to just call them up and go hey, hey, this is it. it’s a very difficult conversation to have.

S: Yeah, yeah. But you know what Tracey, it’s completely disingenuous because he really does not want to hear. I know that, you know that, and it’s also he’s being incredibly reinforced, because he’s got some sort of position in this bigger church, and I think you should say about what you did in trying to reach out to the leadership and the pastors there at that church.

T: Yeah, and this walks that line, because I’ve gone out and taken walks and in my head going, my default is forgiveness. That is where I’m happiest. I like to be at peace with people, I love to be forgiving towards people because I know how we all are. We need it. So it’s very difficult for me to be in a space where it’s like, dude, you are one of the most selfish people I have come into contact with, and you are the father of my children, and you will not even give me the grace to have a conversation about what you and I chose to do and believe and raise our kids. So even if I gave him that – okay, your kids are adults, they can have that – you haven’t heard me. You’re the one in your own belief system that was the leader of our home and the leader of me.

S: That’s right.

T: And you won’t even allow me to be able to have this conversation with you on where now I can have memories and show what we did. In one of the conversations with one of my kids, because it’s not something I can undo, there was a challenge put forward. It was like, well it would be great if you could impact the laws in our country that help make this not possible to continue. That is something I’ve really taken to heart, and I’ve done some reading on particular Tennessee, because Larry Tomczak, his ministry is in Tennessee, and the lawsuits got thrown out for statues of limitations, of course, and then because corporal punishment is still legal I think in – we’ll put it in our show notes how many states. There is a difference between the way I grew up and you’re get a swat on the back with a hairbrush, right, which was few and far between and we can have conversations about that, but I think through the documentary of Shiny Happy People and through our conversations, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about some spanking that happens in a lot of American homes. We’re talking about a ritualized spanking methodology and teaching that teaches fear and creates anxiety, and as we will hear in some of our interviews, sexual development issues because of that. That’s what we’re talking about.

S: And, real damage to emotional wellbeing, because it’s one thing if you’ve got a parent who, you did something naughty, the parent had told you not to and they’re like Johnny, would you stop that, and you get a swat, because it’s congruent. The anger, the frustration of the parent is congruent with the action of swatting the kid. I’m not justifying that at all, I’m just saying at least there’s a consistency there. The big mind fuck comes when it’s like, Johnny, you disobeyed God, and that makes God very, very sad, and that makes mommy and daddy sad, and we love you so much and God says that we need to spank you because you need to learn to obey. And then the kid’s whacked, and if the kid doesn’t cry enough or the right way, they’re whacked again and again, and again. Sometimes it can go on and on because they’re looking for some sort of evidence of brokenness of spirit, which is so fucked up, just so fucked up. Then when it’s all over, okay Johnny, give daddy a hug, say you’re sorry, say you love me, say thank you daddy for disciplining me in God’s love. That is the big, big mindfuck. That is just nothing but emotional abuse. Horrific emotional abuse.

T: Horrific emotional abuse!

S: And that’s what we’re talking about, yes.

T: And I believe with every ounce of my being that the church in America needs to have a reckoning with standing silent is one thing, but then encouraging this methodology is another thing. And the books, The Strong-Willed Child by James Dobson, God, The Rod and Your Child’s Bod by Larry Tomczak, and How to Train up a Child by Michael Pearl are the three big ones (I think there’s other ones out there) that have been put into the hands of young Christian families all over America. I believe that it is time for the pastors and the clergy to stand up from the pulpit and say we got this wrong.

S: Yep. The church that your ex is part of and in some sort of prominent leadership position in, you wrote to the head of the leadership there about your concerns about this, and what did you get, Tracey?

T: So I tried – we have social media platforms and you do hate those people that just bother the hell out of you, right?

S: Yep.

T: So I’ve tried to walk that line where hey, this is who I am, I’m the ex-wife, this is the situation; I would really like it if you guys could take a stand as a church against this form of punishment. I would be happy to talk to you. I can share from experience why this is a really dangerous way, and the fruit of it is not only backed up by science, it’s backed up by experience from the countless people who have grown up and said this has got to change. So I first wrote a little message through Instagram, and never got answered. The main question is, will you take a stand against this form of discipline.

S: I hate even calling it discipline, Tracey.

T: Yeah.

S: I mean, I know that’s what they call it but…

T: That’s what they call it.

S: I know, so you gotta use their language, but you and I know it’s abuse, but go ahead.

T: It is abuse. So that was that, but then I decided you know what, I’m going to write a full-on email to the leadership of this church and share my story. So I got onto the website; it’s Big House Church in Virginia, and the only email address is information@bighousechurch. So I wrote that to the pastors of Big House Church. I introduced myself, I said I wish when I was a young mother, I wish there was anybody out there who would have pulled me aside and given me another understanding of that scripture that they pull from Psalms, the one that says through the beating you will drive out rebellion. I wished that somebody had challenged that theology, because now, even if I believed in the bible there are so many ways to read that scripture. There are so many ways that you can talk about the shepherd’s rod that doesn’t include striking a child and trying to drive out that rebellion. There are so many ways to understand the Jesus story of sanctification, that that’s not how he deals with us where he beats us into obedience. To me that goes against the entire gospel message on so many points. So that was my appeal to them. I wish somebody had equipped me differently. I would ask you guys to take a stand from your pulpit and come out against these three major books and this form of corporal punishment, because I’m still dealing with the healing and fallout from that, and signed it sincerely and whatever. It was heartfelt, and I believe that if anybody had written me that letter, I would have first opened it with I am so sorry that you have been going through that level of whatever.

S: Mmhmm, yep.

T: Even if they thought I was a crazy person, right? It was definitely a heartfelt letter and it revealed my pain and my angst, and it was saying I think the scripture has been misinterpreted here and it’s causing a lot of damage to a lot of children. Will you guys do something. The letter I got back, the response I got back was, who is your covering?

[laughter]

S: Oh my god. Oh my god it was just – yeah. It was like, you’re shitting me, when you shared that with me. These guys – these guys, and it’s clear, boy the misogyny that’s in there, the self-righteousness, the religious – ugh, Tracey, it’s horrible. And I have to say, both of us, I am surprized that we are still surprized. Every time we try something like this, we try to reach out, we hope there’s going to be someone listening and someone open, and we actually hope, and we wind up surprized that they don’t. And that’s kind of silly.

T: Yes, it is. So here’s the actual letter. It’s short. It’s short and sweet – so I pour out my heart…this is Matt Ruckel, the Executive Pastor of Big House Church. Moving forward, if you would like to send further correspondence about this topic, please send to my email at XXX@XXX. The info@bighousechurch, (which is the email I used, which is the only one on their website) or any other Big House emails, Pastor Adam’s personal pages, or other staff members personal pages, or the Big House Church social pages, would not be the best place to have these discussions moving forward.

S: Which you never did. You’d never done that anyway.

T: Well, I had reached out to Pastor Cates on Instagram.

S: Okay.

T: Any further correspondence on this topic to any other Big House church staff or social pages would be, as you put it, reaching out in excess. You have made your case; no further emails will be necessary.

[laughter]

S: Oh. Can we say patriarchy?

T: So I sat on that for a long time and eventually responded that I was saddened and surprized that nowhere in his email did he reach out for any of the struggles that we’d been having as a family. Again, another heartfelt letter of ministers in churches are complicit, there’s a Shiny Happy People documentary I really would love for you guys to listen to because I do think this is a topic the church needs to address. And he wrote back Tracey, can you send me the contact information for your Board of Directors or your spiritual covering.

[laughter]

T: Period. That’s it.

S: Holy shit. Oh my god.

T: I think the thing that is very difficult for me in this, is to me this is a no brainer. It is so hard for me to think that as we have moved forward – what, my kids were born in the 80s, and science has moved forward, and people have grown up and they’re sharing their stories, and then you have docuseries that are shining the light. You have great work on trauma now that is out there for anyone who picks up a book to read it. And the science is in, and it’s in in such a strong way.

S: Well, it is, but you know Tracey, your ex did show great compassion and willingness to help, because he did offer to let your adult kids have counselling sessions with someone on staff there at his church, because that could definitely help them navigate all the abuse, all the mind twist that came from being raised in this fundamentalist abusive situation, so let’s just use Christian scriptures and Christian counsellors to try to untangle it because no – you know what it would be? It would be reinforcing yeah, your hearts are wicked kids. You’re rebellious. No wonder your dad had to beat you. How tone deaf. How insulting. How minimizing. That just infuriated me when you told me about that.

T: Yeah, and the other part of that is he did send that unsolicited to his kids.

S: Wait, just out of the blue said you can come get counselling at my church.

T: Yes. Because I was trying to have – so this is how I view it listeners, and I’ve tried to talk to people just because I do know that if you become a crazy person that’s always poking at it, it’s not going to get you anywhere. So I’ve tried to approach it as you and I did this. It wasn’t you. I’m not saying YOU; you and I. I was a co-operator in this scenario, and it would be really great if you and I could have a united front on how we talk about it. That would be really, really, really great, and that would require a conversation for him to have with me. And instead of having that conversation with me, he sent a letter unsolicited – because I’m trying to be very respectful of their lives and what they’re going through, and when they’re ready, or when they’re not ready – or whether they want to include us or not include us, right? That’s their choice. And I’m really trying, because of all of the things I’ve learned from listening to people – they may never even want to have those conversations with us. I get it, but I need to have it with my ex because we did this together. So then he sent this unsolicited fellow counsellor from his church, and he put the contact information – of course, they let me know that.

S: They, meaning your kids?

T: Yes, so I knew he had done this. So I did write to him and I said hey, I’m absolutely willing to meet with that counsellor. I would love to meet with you and that counsellor, and since you seem to trust her, can we schedule a time when we can have that conversation. Of course he didn’t answer it, so I still made the appointment with this counsellor. I paid the money for the session. She is a Bob Jones University graduate, I think there are some people that will appreciate that. But my view going into this is I don’t care what final belief systems that you have; I think that everyone should agree on when abuse is abuse and not just discipline.

S: Yeah.

T: And that when a full on counsellor hears these stories, I think they will absolutely say that was abuse.

S: So you met with her?

T: I met with her.

S: So your ex was not there, just you?

T: He never answered me about it, so I went ahead and did it, and then I let the counsellor know. I said you have my permission to share anything that I have shared with my ex should he come in, because I get it – he may not be comfortable with me being there. But I have laid all this out, she was compassionate, I think definitely wanted me to come to the point where Jesus was going to heal me from whatever it is.

S: Of course.

T: That’s not why I’m here; I’m here because I think my ex needs to be able to hear.

S: Did she acknowledge that what you described was actually abusive?

T: I would say she was careful, as I expected her to be. She did have a lot of empathy and she did say it sounds like you’ve been saying this for a long time. I of course cried, because it is painful and I said I have been saying this for a long time, and I think it’s really important for him to hear these stories that I have had to listen to, and I think have not been shared with him because of his inability to hear them.

S: Well, that inability to hear Tracey, I think that that is just sadly the reality. Because, ugh. You know, we go back a long, long way, and I feel towards your kids almost as much connection as I feel towards my own. We won’t say which one, but we did nurse each other’s babies at one point.

T: We did!

S: Don’t worry kids, if you’re listening to this, we’re not saying which one of you it was, but anyway. But I do, I mean, your kids, all adults, are really important to me. I really care about them. When we finished up our interview with Chad and he was talking about the spanking rituals and what that was like for him in the moment, and what that did to him in his own psyche and then in his relationships going forward, and what he’s had to unlearn, it really just pierced my heart, and it made me think in particular of one of your children. I could just see so much of what Chad went through with this one of your kids, so I reached out privately and personally to your ex, and I said hey, I know you love your kids like crazy. I love your kids like crazy. I know we were all young and we were all trying to figure it out, and we’d all do things differently if we could go back in time. But I heard some things that this young man Chad Harris shared and it really made me think in particular of one of your kids, and I sent him a little clip of some of the stuff that Chad said – really brief, like, one minute. And I also suggested it’s been hard for me to face up with my own failures with my raising of my kids and to begin to have those conversations, and I’ve learned some things along the way, and I’ve done them outright some of the time, and if you do want to talk with your kids, I’d love to have a conversation with you and share with you some things that have helped me. And yeah, it was pretty much not interested.

T: It wasn’t just not interested; there was definitely a mocking tone of his response to you.

S: Yeah it was.

T: It was the same with the pastor, and I guess that’s the part – even in talking openly because it is that difficult line of how much do you air what’s happening, but because they are all in active ministry it’s a different level of accountability.

S: Yes, you’re right. If they were just living private lives, that’s one thing.

T: Correct.

S: But I’m sorry, you guys are out there, fucking standing in front of other people, promoting this shit, not taking responsibility, justifying it, and that just makes me so angry.

T: Correct. So I think that’s been the added layer of insult into this, is he is not just a private citizen. He has gone back into the ministry, he is supported by a big church as a prayer ministry; he has given himself the name Papa Lindsay which has been an added insult, because he is setting himself up as the paragon of fathers. There’s a lot of little memes that talk about this new wave of Christianity that calls God Papa God.

S: It’s just creepy.

T: It’s so weird, and it was never our – we did not do that at Last Days Ministries. So you’ll hear Papa God, Papa God, Daddy God, Papa God, and it…

S: It makes me want to barf.

T: It does, but imagine being abused at the hand of the man who is now saying that, and just what an added insult it is, and that’s what makes me want to burn a church. That comes down from the beginning of it. It makes me want to burn a church because it’s not just somebody who – yeah, he’s got this stuff and he won’t face it. I know his training, because we all were at Last Days, we led a school together. I know the importance of going back to people to make things right. I know the teaching of the father heart of God and nowhere in that teaching is this.

S: No.

T: And then when you have this level of hurt that people are now coming out and speaking about, the entire dialog of the church – it’s happening on our Last Days alumni site; it’s happening from the pastors of this Big House church – they’re turning a deaf ear and I’m like, you guys, these are kids who have grown up and are speaking out, and instead of you offering compassion for what they’ve gone through – even throwing a bone of compassion – you are immediately who’s your covering, why are you doing that, you’re hurt and bitter.

S: Circle the wagons and turn a deaf ear – and turn around and blame shift. It’s so much there. You know Tracey, there was something else that occurred to me recently, and that is I have several grandchildren. I’m pretty sure you will at some point in the future, but as I look at my kids with their children, I think to myself oh my god, I would never want them to do everything the way I did it. I want them to do it differently. I want them to be better. I want them to be more compassionate, more understanding, more affirming. I would never say to them hey, do as I did. No fucking way. And I wonder that about your ex. I wonder what he would think about the grandkids, and if he would say yeah, I’m happy with everything I did, how I raised my children when they were young. Would he really say that?

T: So here’s the other thing that I did want to make mention of, and because I know the mindset so well, and I know the teaching so well, I can know what’s going through their head, and he does believe that he has apologized for it back many years ago, and this is the apology. I am sorry, and he did break down in tears, but it was really uncomfortable because it was about his pain and not any of the kids’ pain, right. I am sorry I didn’t understand God’s heart – he did say that – I got it wrong. I got it wrong. And I think that there is a thing of looking at me as being the voice of condemnation of the devil, because he has apologized and I am trying to pull him back.

S: It’s just so inadequate.

T: Correct. And the part of it, even at the time when he said that I was like no, you didn’t get it wrong. You actually got it so right. You were so faithful, you were so earnest, you were so intent on following the teaching that you believed to be true that you followed it so intently to the letter, that it seared your own instincts to pull back on that, and it wasn’t because you were such an evil person that you didn’t understand God’s heart; you were taught this. Then another child at some point in these last couple of decades said, it’s very hard to forgive when someone is still in the same mindset that they were in when they did it. And it’s very hard to respect someone’s faith who, at every time along the timeline at an important place, has gotten it wrong. That would be a lot of that history – I got it wrong here, I got it wrong here. And they said what good is a belief system if you always get it wrong?

S: Wow.

T: To me that’s the part of this reckoning for the church to do and for leaders to do. This is taught. This is taught in Christian books that are handed out, and I do not hear anybody saying these are wrong; we cannot continue with this doctrine.

S: You’re talking about people that are still at the evangelical churches, the fundamentalist churches – they’re not saying it’s wrong. People who have come out are saying it’s wrong.

T: Oh yeah, yeah, people who have come out. But it’s like great, we all believe that and the people that are still doing the harm are the ones in it. That’s where the message needs to go in; it needs to go into these young families that are joining these churches. They need to have that told to them, that this is a terrible way to raise your children, and I am looking to the fathers to do that and my ex would be one. He is in a place of ministry, and he of all people, should be publicly denouncing these methodologies, and he won’t even have the conversation. So that does make me believe he would do it again, and that is a chilling thought that has been really hard for me to come to grips with because my default is surely you would not do that again. But he has not said otherwise.

S: Wow. Wow Tracey.

T: So that’s how I’m doing.

S: That’s a lot. Well, I think in the months to come we should brainstorm – maybe we can come up with some concerted, coordinated effort to try to get the churches to listen, but I don’t know. That might just also be spitting into the wind.

T: Yeah, it might be. There are organizations that take a safe zone pledge, and they are working with churches to take safe zone pledges, and to equip parents on how to do respectful parenting so there are resources out there. I’m not into dragging someone’s nose in it – my real heart is to equip new parents, especially fundy parents. Obviously we disagree with a lot of stuff, but if they could change the way they raise the next generation that would go a long way.

S: That would. Yeah, it would. Well Tracey, thank you very, very much for sharing all of this. It’s heavy. It’s intense, and this is on top of the fact that it has been a crazy and wonderful and jammed last five months or so, hasn’t it.

T: Yes, it has. We launched our podcast mid-April.

S: Yeah.

T: And with this one, that’s going to bring us to 20 episodes.

S: Twenty! And at the same time, we’re juggling pretty busy personal and professional lives. I’m happy with the way we’ve been approaching the podcast right, we’re really trying to take the time to bring quality to each episode, for sure.

T: Yes, whether it’s in an interview with stories that so coincide with ours, or our own topics, like this conversation.

S: Yeah, and we’ve talked about how it’s taking quite a bit of focus and dedicated time to plan and to schedule and to record…

T: Not to mention the editing guys, Sharon has all the editing on her plate. So sometimes she has to edit me a lot.

[laughter]

S: But I don’t edit myself. I throw in every shit and fuck I can. Alright, so one bit of important wisdom that we’ve gained in our 60 plus years on this earth…

T: You’re the plus, because you’re older than me so…

S: Oh my god. Okay, I’m going to exercise some extremely rare, out of character self-control for me, and I’m not going to say my usual fuck you Tracey to that comment.

T: Actually I was thinking the last time you said that to me on a public forum, that would make a great shirt, one of our first shirts. People wouldn’t get it unless they listened.

S: Fuck you, Tracey!

T: Yes! I was like on my god, that’s great.

S: Oh my god, I love that too. Alright, I gotta order one.

[laughter]

T: What Sharon was going to say was that we’ve learned the need for balance in our lives and we, like we’re talking about in this episode, are giving you insights into how we’re trying to achieve that. Also, we’ve decided that for now, in order to keep the show quality and really make sure we’re concentrating on the stories that are important, we’re going to switch to an every other week podcast schedule.

S: Yes. We’re going to go every other week instead of weekly, but never fear children – there are other great shows out there to help feed your needs. And in fact, next week on Thursday August 31^st, Tracey and I are guests on the wonderful podcast Cheers to Leaving.

T: Yeah. So you can still hear our graceful granny – well, that’s really Sharon because I’m not one yet – voices next week as we talk with Rachel and Molly, who are both young enough to be our daughters and have filled that place for me of really being teachers for me.

S: Yeah. I dunno, is my voice really graceful? I think it’s more gratuitous. I think it’s the gratuitous granny voice – all those extra special expletives.

T: Yeah, you’re like the Betty White of Golden Girls.

S: Wait, did she curse?

T: Oh my god.

S: Betty did?

T: Oh maybe it’s the other one.

S: No it wasn’t Betty, she was sweet.

T: Was she the sweet one? Okay. Who’s the really crass granny?

S: Oh you know, I don’t remember. We’ll have to go back and watch that.

T: Because we were in a commune during those, we didn’t watch that show, so I only have an overview because I don’t even know how many I watched.

S: Alright, next time we’re together we’re going to binge a few of them, okay. Just for the hell of it.

T: Yes. So we’ll be back here with you on Wednesday.

S: Wait. Since you mentioned Betty White I just gotta say this. I remember some joke she told where she was saying people are always talking about grow some balls – you know, to get tough? You should grow some balls. She said but you know what, every man that I know says those things kind of hurt, so really what you should say is grow a vagina, because that thing is gonna take a pounding.

[laughter]

T: Oh wow. Yeah, I think her character – I don’t know why I think, but I thought she was the spicy one. But we’ll have to figure that out.

S: We’ll have to.

T: You know, at the very beginning of this, we only agreed to every other week.

S: Oh, you’re right. At the very beginning that’s what we said, and then we went crazy on it.

T: Yes. So we only promised from the beginning, and you even in that, you were ooh if we can keep it every other week. So there’s that.

S: Okay. Alright folks, if you haven’t already, please follow and subscribe, rate us, leave a review, all that kind of good stuff.

T: And you can always find us on Instagram, Feet of Clay.cultsisters where our link tree will take you to everywhere we are.

S: Thank you so much for listening and we’ll see you not next week, but after that. Bye.

T: Bye.