This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 015 – A New Dawn: Keith Green’s Foster Daughter Finds Her Voice, Part 1

July 19, 2023

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: A few weeks ago we spent an entire afternoon talking with someone who was very special to us, all the way back in the 1970s and 80s, and it was so wonderful to reconnect with her. That person was none other than Keith Green’s foster daughter. The Christian world knew her then as Dawn Green, and in fact, she is the only living person who actually knew and experienced Keith Green as a father.

T: Oh wow. Yes.

S: That’s something to think about, huh.

T: That is. Definitely. Dawn of course, started living with Keith and Melody at age 10, beginning in California and then moving with you all when you guys all went to Texas. So you know Sharon, I really had to take some time after our conversation with her, to absorb and process all the things we learned in our conversation with Dawn, before we could post and share it out here on the podcast.

S: Yeah. Yeah, you’re right. Me too. I was surprized, it was a pretty emotional experience for me. A couple of things really stood out: number one, Dawn’s amazing awareness and resiliency at every stage of her life; young child, teenager, young adult, and all the way through to today. And the number two – just how very sad I felt realizing that the things I had kind of suspected about her emotional isolation and neglect, that those things were actually even more real and more profound for her than I had thought.

T: Mmhmm. You know, Sharon, in hearing her story I was able to look back at everything that you and I experienced through an entirely new lens. We – you and I – granted, we were young when we chose to go to Last Days Ministries but we did just that. We chose to go.

S: Right.

T: Even the fact we both had graduated – we were young, but we did have a life outside of Last Days Ministries. We did have a life outside of that communal system of high control, and I guess as she was sharing, it just struck me afresh; that’s all she knew since she was 10 years old.

S: Yeah. Oh my god yeah. I think her perspective and experience – it’s really important for people to hear this. I know the interview is going to be very, very interesting to many people. There’s going to be those who personally knew Dawn back at Last Days Ministries and I think they’re really gonna want to hear how she is. And then also the many tens if not hundreds of thousands of Keith Green – let’s call them groupies. They may still be current fans, or they may be former followers. Or they may be like us; kind of fully recovered and out of it all.

T: Yes, and you know, I wanted a chance for us to at least touch base about this. I struggled with some fresh anger after doing that – well actually, during the interview. Most of the people – if you only are familiar with Dawn’s story through the book No Compromise, the story of Keith Green by Melody Green; we often put that in our show notes because that has a lot of touch points in it that is the record to the world of that story. You can hear me in some of the interview questions; I’m wrestling with some of these emotions, and I think one of them I end up asking a question that’s completely a word salad, because I’m trying to corral these rising emotions enough that I can get out of the way and let her tell her story.

S: I could tell Tracey, cos I know you so well. I could hear it in your voice, and I also thought my gosh, I feel like man, maybe I’m just too low energy too, because this is emotionally impacting me.

T: Yeah, and I can hear some of my [gasps] – gasps that I’m trying to tamp myself down, because the harm to Dawn, and I think it’s definitely understated in several places, is so real and so deep.

S: Let me just underscore that. It’s really understated in places. Like, she’ll just be saying something and then just casually say oh yeah, that’s what happened. And I’m thinking to myself holy shit. That’s huge!

T: It’s so huge, and I think because we say at the beginning, this is our first time interviewing and really trying to step out of the story enough so that it doesn’t become oh my god! So that’s why I’m really grateful we can have this opportunity just to kind of reflect before we share the story with the world. She was a completely vulnerable and totally dependent young girl and as she tells her story, it really sheds light in a different way of what it was like to grow up under that No Compromise mentality and how it played out in real life.

S: Yeah.

T: It was definitely some heavy stuff for me to hear and to think back through.

S: And folks, as you listen, you’re going to notice there are several times when Dawn talks about how Keith was confronting and punishing her for having “a bad attitude” and in reality, what she was experiencing was extreme loneliness and depression, and sadly there’s just no room in that Last Days belief system for anything about mental health – no one would ever think of contacting a qualified professional, or anything secular. That’s not going to fly. And for us, all the answers were with God and the bible. That was it. that’s every answer you need. To be fair, society back then wasn’t all that aware about mental health issues either, but also realize that the core problem that inflicted so much damage was this black and white view of “sin” and “holiness”, which was compounded with all this immature arrogant belief that all of us had back then.

T: Yep. It was definitely in all of us back them.

S: It’s this arrogant belief that we could somehow “hear from God” about another person, or even for another person.

T: You’ll hear that Dawn had some significant struggles, but it’s not all gloom and doom.

S: Nope, the beautiful thing is that in the end freedom and peace and love have dawned brightly in her soul, haven’t they.

T: Yes, yes they have.

S: Did you notice what I did there with her name? Dawned brightly…

T: I did notice that and I think I was so grateful that at least that sentence had other words that didn’t all start with D so I was like, I’m going to give that one to her.

[laughter]

S: Thank you.

T: We are really glad to be able to share with you the story of how Dawn finally found her true self. Here comes part one of our conversation with the foster daughter of Keith and Melody Green.

…

S: Tracey, I am so excited because we have actually our first guest.

T: Yes, yes! And we get to be the interviewers.

S: This is going to be my first time doing it, so hopefully I don’t totally suck, but you may have to be the one to pitch in and save the day.

T: Or we will have to enhance our editing skills and fix it on the back end.

S: Maybe so, maybe so. Alright folks, well, we are really excited today to introduce someone to you. I actually first met her in 1979; I was 17 years old, she was 14 years old at the time, and I first met her as Dawn Green, the foster daughter of Keith and Melody Green. So Dawn, welcome to our crazy little adventure here!

D: Thanks for having me.

S: We are just really, really excited to talk with you. And you are living kind of in the middle of the country now, out in the Midwest right?

D: Yes, in Iowa.

S: Very good, and I’m down in Florida right now, and Tracey, you are where?

T: I’m in Knoxville Tennessee.

S: So we have the miracle of technology, which hopefully our blend from these three locations, the sound file will still be okay.

T: Yes!

S: So Dawn, when you and I first met – it’s so funny, I’m gonna tell you, this is what’s a little silly to me when I think about it. I was only 17, you were 14. We’re only a few years apart, and yet I kind of looked at you as this little girl, but you were really coming of age. When I read the book No Compromise, the life story of Keith Green, written by Melody Green – and I only read it for the first time a couple of months ago, it was really interesting to me to kind of put myself back in that situation; those suburbs of Woodland Hills California, and to remember this sweet, beautiful, smart young lady that you were. We are so interested to hear your take on all of that stuff. So where would you like to start, Dawn?

D: Maybe we should start at the beginning.

S: Let’s do that.

D: Just to give everyone a background, so my birth name, as I’m sure most people are curious – I was born Dawn Michele Hutchison. I was born in Texas, believe it or not.

S: Oh really? What town?

D: Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio.

S: Okay!

T: Oh wow! A Texan.

D: Yeah. Army hospital, so it doesn’t really count, right?

[laughter]

D: My parents divorced when I was two and my mom, my aunt (my mother’s sister) and I moved to LA, then when I was six, my mom and I started going to these Ashrams. The first one we went to was a Krishna temple.

S: K-R-I-S-H-N-A?

D: Yeah, like Hare Krishna.

T: And that was in LA?

D: Yes, so here I am six years old and watching all these people jumping up and down and playing instruments and chanting Hare Krishna. This was crazy and it was a big nope. We didn’t go back.

T: Was that the actual Hare Krishna? I know Krishna in Hinduism – there are different sects that follow Krishna. Was that the official Hare Krishna during that time, do you know?

D: Yes, it was the official Hare Krishna. Not Hinduism that includes Krishna, this is Hare Krishna. You know, the guys you saw at the airport.

T: Yaas.

S: In the orange clothes.

D: Yes.

T: The orange outfits. Definitely puts us in that time period.

D: Orange and yellow. I think orange was like, you’re married and yellow you were single – something like that. I can’t remember. It was weird. It was very weird. So we did not go back, but we did go to Paramahansa Yogananda’s self-realization temple and that was very cool. Learned a lot about the different masters; Jesus was part of their teachings. They included many different masters, this was not exclusively Paramahansa Yogananda and also at the same time, I was in a private school. What was very cool about this school was morning recess was – we practiced yoga and meditation. My mom decided she was going to be a vegetarian. This is how cool my mom is, you guys. She is amazing. She came to me and said I’m going to be a vegetarian from now on, I am not going to cook meat, I am not going to buy meat, but if you want to continue eating meat, that’s okay. So she left it up to me. Is that like, awesome or what? That’s amazing, and that’s how she was with me.

S: What age was this again, Dawn? How old were you?

D: Six. I was six years old.

T: So you were still six – do you remember about how old your mom would be during this time?

D: She had me when she was 19, so what would that be?

T: 25.

S: Mid-twenties.

D: Yeah.

T: We’re doing math really fast here.

[laughter]

D: So that’s the way she was. At the beginning I didn’t understand being a vegetarian, and I did not want to give up McDonald’s hamburgers. Just didn’t want to do that, but it was because I didn’t understand – why are we becoming vegetarians? But the more we went to the Ashram and we went to Paramahansa Yogananda’s Ashram, and we also went to Sri Swami Satsudananda’s Ashram, so getting into it I really started understanding the reason behind it and after I grasped that, you could not pay me to eat meat.

T: Really!

D: It became a part of my understanding; this is about taking care of my temple, my body, my mind, and all of that. So seven or eight years old, I understood this.

T: And the school you were going to was a private school but it was not religiously affiliated obviously.

D: Correct.

T: Was it like a Montessori school that would allow everyone to have a similar understanding?

D: I’m not really sure. They didn’t really teach yoga, as far as the philosophy. We just practised yoga at morning recess, then at the end we did a meditation.

T: Wow.

D: At the Ashram we would do different types of meditation, and breathing, and stuff like that. The school was just a regular school. It was one classroom, so I had other students that were in there that were learning other things that were more advanced than me because they were older than I was. Like, somebody was learning Latin, I think he was 13 or something, and then they had younger kids like me who were learning how to write. It’s a room full of a lot of different people, and it felt like this was a way for me to really understand other people and learn to be more accepting and respectful, because I understood older kids in this classroom with me.

S: That’s cool.

D: I don’t know how to explain it any better than that.

T: That’s very well explained, and that’s a great foundational experience at a very young age. I asked about Montessori school because one of my sons went to Montessori for a time, and I think in all of our educational experiences, that’s one of my favorite methodologies, for that very reason – you’re in with older kids; you’re learning at different paces.

S: And Dawn, you were at that school through what age or grade?

D: Two years. So first and second grade.

S: Okay. And that was in southern California?

D: Yes, in LA. Okay, so let’s fast forward; I was nine years old. My mother – this is about the time when I met Keith and Melody. We went to the Bla-Bla Café – it’s mentioned in the book. My mom met a guy – and she was very careful – that she and I moved in with. She really liked this guy. He wanted to move to Colorado so we packed up and moved. My grandparents lived there, and later my mom and this guy broke up and she was wanting to go back to LA, and I asked if I could stay with my grandparents because I had been going over there every once in a while, and visiting. This is my dad’s parents, this is not my mom’s parents.

S: Okay. Dawn, had you been in touch with your father at all?

D: I had written a few letters to him, kept in touch a little bit. Not real tight.

S: When you were with your grandparents – his parents – was he in the picture at all at that point, or just your grandparents?

D: He was living in Florida and had been remarried and had two children with his new wife. I was – when I moved in with grandma and grandpa their youngest son was still living at home. He was 17. He was in his last year of high school. During the summer my grandparents flew me down to Florida to visit my dad and meet my half-sister and half-brother. So that was kind of neat.

T: Yeah.

D: So then I was staying with grandma and grandpa and things were going well, and I was going to church and my grandmother played the piano and organ at church, so we were there every time there was church service. I got to really see what church and Christianity was all about. I had not been exposed to it, so I didn’t know anything. Here I am nine years old and I decided to ask my grandmother well, how do you become a Christian, because I was very curious. So she called up the pastor, and the pastor came over, so it was kind of weird that she couldn’t tell me herself.

T: Do you remember the denomination of that church that your grandparents attended?

D: Yes, it was Baptist. They had always been Baptist. So the pastor came over and taught me about how the ego is on the throne of the heart, and when we ask Jesus to come into our heart, that displaces the ego and then Jesus is on the throne of our heart. I thought that was kind of cool – okay, let’s give this a shot.

T: You’re nine at this time?

D: Yes.

T: Okay, and you understood ego, or he explained that well to you?

D: I already understood it from going to the Ashrams.

S: Right.

D: They taught a lot about that. So then I decided to give this a shot and I got down on my knees and I prayed the prayer; Jesus come into my heart, forgive me of all my sins and all that. Then I got baptized at the next Sunday service, and here’s the weird thing. My grandmother changed. She was no longer very nice. She became very authoritarian; she was very strict. It was weird. It was very, very strange. I did not understand what was going on. Now remember my uncle was still living there. My uncle is no longer here, no longer with us, but he was not a very nice person. I’ll just put it that way.

S: You were nine and he was 17.

D: Yes. So, grandma said you know, we’re missing some silverware; did you take some silverware outside and leave it in the yard? And I said no, I didn’t. The only time I would take silverware out is if I was going to eat something, and I would go out on the steps and sit and eat, then bring it back in, wash it up and put it away. She said well, nobody else did, so you had to have done that. You had to have taken the silverware outside, or somewhere, and left it out there, and so she accused me of lying. I know I did not take the silverware out, so I’m like what is going on here? What is happening? Then – this freaked me out, you have to understand my mom never hit me. She never spanked me. She didn’t need to; she treated me so well, so respectfully that I didn’t throw tantrums; I didn’t make it difficult for her. She never needed to hit me. My grandmother slapped me across the face.

S: Oh wow.

D: That was intense, you guys.

T: Wow.

D: Here’s somebody who’s supposed to love me and protect me from harm who was inflicting harm on me, because she thought I was lying to her. So that happened another time and then…

T: I’m going to stop you just right there – I think as listeners start to hear a lot of our stories, I know the whole thing of corporal punishment is very near to my heart as far as Christian teaching on that, so to hear that you’re nine years old, falsely accused, and you’re slapped across the face. Does she realize that that was done in anger; did she ever address it; did you guys ever talk about that; was that just something that you had to hold within yourself?

D: She did not talk about it. this is something that to her, it was the right thing to do. So there was no discussion. It was the way she saw it and that’s the way it was.

S: And she did it a second time?

D: The second time, and then another time she put a bar of soap in my mouth, so I had to go through that. The thing is, my uncle was her baby. That was the baby of the family so of course he would never have done anything like that. Honestly, my uncle was a jerk. He stole some things from me – I mean, who steals from a nine- or ten-year-old?

S: Teenage assholes. Lots of them in the world.

D: So I found my address book in his bedroom. I had written in pencil, and he erased it and wrote in pen, so yeah. He was a jerk. I’m sure he was lying because then I would take the blame and – you know. He probably thought that was funny. Amusing.

S: And were you still nine, or had you turned ten?

D: I was probably 10. I turned 10 somewhere in there, and the following year, probably getting close to somewhere around summer, I wrote my mom and said I gotta leave, I can’t stay here. It’s just not working out. So she flew me back, and this is where it gets interesting. I know in the book it said that my mother was living in an apartment that was for adults only and she told me that she had just moved in there; her car and broken down and she didn’t have money to fix it, but that apartment was close enough to work that she could walk to work. So when I moved in, the landlady said that I couldn’t stay there, that my mother would have to move out, and she had just moved in. Money was really, really difficult, but on top of it what Melody probably did not know was that my mother was dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts and stuff. So it was a pretty heavy time for my mom, and here she had me to worry about and take care of, on top of her money problems and depression and stuff like that.

T: Were you aware of any of this – because it does sound like you were a very aware child – when you went back with her, could you tell that she was struggling?

D: I think she mentioned it to me when I was still at my grandparents. I seem to remember something about depression. I don’t remember very clearly though. But I was very aware that me being there was difficult for her taking care of me, because see – what bothers me is the book kind of makes it sound like I was a dog and this apartment doesn’t take dogs; can anybody take this dog.

T: Absolutely. I just – for the listeners, and it will be in our show notes – but of course, we’re talking about the book that Melody Green wrote called No Compromise, the life story of Keith Green. In that she describes this time period in Dawn’s life, and I know the first time I read it, and reading it again, it’s exactly that sense. Even wondering how you’re up for being questioned about this, because it is a painful telling, I think. Also for you to talk about your mother’s struggles – and just in Christianity in general, there’s not space. Of course back then too, I don’t think we knew as much about mental health issues as we do know today, but I’m thinking in my head of all the opportunities they could have had to reach out and help your mother. But the solution was – none of those things. I guess you’re going to tell is what the solution ended up being.

D: Right. So yeah, my options for people to move in with was not that great. Keith and Melody were the best option; first, there was a mother/father figure, and they were not alcoholics or doing drugs or anything like that. The book did make it sound like it was my aunt that I was going to move in with, it made it sound like she drank all of the time and did drugs night and day, and I don’t think that was the case. She was with a guy that she’d been with long enough to be married under common law in California, so I called him Uncle Jessie and her Aunt Cathy, so they were family, but at that time they were getting deeper and deeper into alcoholism and it was not a good place to go. So I chose Keith and Melody. In the book she talks about how they were picking me up and taking me to these bible studies all the time; they only took me a couple of times, and the rest they had somebody come pick me up, and when I got there, it wasn’t like I was hanging out with them, I was just hanging out with the people that were there. So it wasn’t like they were spending a lot of time with me. They were busy with the adults, or something, I guess.

S: Were these bible studies in their house, or the other houses there, or were they at other churches or other people’s homes?

D: The church we went to was – I can’t remember.

S: Was it the Vineyard?

D: The Vineyard. Yes. We were meeting on the beach, having church service on the beach. Yeah, that was pretty cool. The couple that were acrobats that had the goat on the front porch and the monkey and a few other animals – yeah.

S: Okay wait. A goat and a monkey on the front porch? Tell us more about that.

D: The goat was on the front porch and the monkey was inside the house in a big cage.

S: Oh my goodness.

D: And I think they had a skunk for a while. I can’t remember their name, but it’s in the book.

S: Okay.

T: So you’re 10, almost 11 about this time?

D: I am 10 when I moved in it was just before I turned 11.

T: So you’ve been to Ashrams, you’ve danced with the Hare Krishnas, you’ve moved to the Midwest, and you’ve gone to a Baptist church, and now you’re in LA with acrobats who have animals on their porch, and at the beach. I’m sure that was probably preferable to what you experienced in Colorado. Do you remember what you were thinking spiritually as far as that input and the people you were around, and the general vibe of everything?

D: Yeah. So it was pretty good until I moved in with Keith and Melody, and then something changed. I don’t understand the changing thing. Why do these people change? When I did move in, it seemed okay. One thing in the book, Melody says I insisted on calling them mom and dad and that’s not quite right. I insisted on calling them Keith and Melody, and Keith kept telling me I had to call them mom and dad, so that was weird to me because – I don’t know – it just didn’t feel right because they weren’t really my mom and dad. They were just in that position of responsibility, but not necessarily my mom and dad.

T: Do you remember – I take it from the book that you mainly had those conversations with Keith as far as where you would go to live. Do you remember what those conversations were like?

D: Not really. I think maybe that’s why Melody thought I was insisting on calling them mom and dad, because she hadn’t talked to Keith. Maybe Keith didn’t tell her that he wanted me to call them mom and dad; I don’t know. But as far as the vibe, so to speak, I guess you could call it – it felt okay. Keith was insisting on me calling them mom and dad, that was a little bit weird but I got past it. Okay it’s what he wants, I will do it. Okay. So then soon after I moved in I moved in – and when I moved in, let me clarify; Cindy was living there with her daughter Kelly and so there were three bedrooms and I think all of us were in the one bedroom, Cindy Kelly and I. The piano was in the middle room, and they ended up moving the piano out (?) or I can’t remember exactly what happened to the piano, but Cindy ended up in the middle bedroom. And then Keith and Melody at the other end. We all shared a bathroom and for whatever reason, somebody had gotten into Melody’s makeup. You have to understand, I have always been and I still am very much a tomboy. I like to play in the dirt…

S: Yep, I remember you in Texas. You were out with the horses on the farm, for sure.

D: How often did you see me wear a dress?

S: Never. That’s one other reason I totally related to you Dawn, because I was the tomboy, too. I was not into makeup or dresses. Yeah, you were a tomboy, for sure.

D: Yeah, we clicked really well.

S: We did.

D: I had a skateboard, I played outside all the time, I just wasn’t into makeup. I didn’t have any desire. So one day Keith sat me down on the sofa and he said somebody got into Melody’s makeup, was that you, and I said no. Huh uh. That’s not me. I didn’t do that. Well we asked everybody else, and everybody else said that they didn’t do it, so you had to be the one who did it. And I’m like – what the ?? What the hell is happening?

T: It keeps happening, yeah.

D: Why is this happening? I feel like I’m losing my mind. And then Keith told me, Kelly (four years old) – Kelly was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, so Keith said he could believe her when she said she didn’t get into the makeup, that she was telling the truth.

S: Oh wow.

D: So that was weird. Very weird.

T: Wow.

D: So I continued to say no, it wasn’t me, and he kept saying I was lying and I needed to tell the truth. It was very important that I told the truth. It was very important that I told the truth. I was in tears and I’m like, I’m not lying! And then finally it was about three in the morning, you guys.

S: Oh shit.

T: So this went on for – how long is this going on – when did it start if it’s at three in the morning?

D: I’m gonna say like, five or six in the afternoon or the evening.

T: Oh my gosh!!

D: Yes! But then I finally said okay fine, I did it. Can I go to bed now.

S: Wow. You know what, I remember watching a documentary recently that was talking about or discussing the interrogation techniques of police, and the whole sleep deprivation and constant insisting, and what happens with finally after so many hours, the confession, and the understanding now of how absolutely unreliable that is, and how it’s so – it’s not even admissible in court in so many situations now. Wow Dawn, I am so sorry that you went through that interrogation.

D: Yeah. Well, it was very confusing. I thought I was losing my mind because it was the same thing that happened with my grandmother. So I was very confused and did not understand. I felt scared. I felt weird, like something’s wrong with me, so yeah.

S: Were you in contact with your real mom at that point at all?

D: A little bit yes. I think she required it. She required that I come visit her every once in a while. She wanted to keep in touch with me.

S: Was this before or around the same time of some sort of legal process for Keith and Melody to be your official guardian?

D: Yes, I had a social worker, though she never talked to me. I don’t understand how that works. I thought they had to talk to the child.

T: Yes.

D: I only saw her once, and I believe they talked to her more than once, I just hadn’t been around, but she did not contact me to talk to me for whatever reason, I guess. The book is correct in that the state required that there are no other adults in the house. If there are any children in the house, that Keith and Melody need to have adopted them, become legal guardian, or they have to be their own children. That’s when not only were they running out of room in their own house but they had this legal thing where I had to have space in the house. I could not have other people in the house.

S: So that’s when the renting of other properties started.

D: Yes it was about the same time. I can’t say it was because of me but it happened at the same time; they were running out of space and they wanted to expand, so that’s what happened with that.

S: Yep. You know Dawn, there was another part in the book that I remember reading, when Melody talks about Keith basically informing her that you were going to come and live with them. I think the words she used were that she felt something like “rising in her chest” because Keith had made the decision on her own. I’m just going to say my observation – and this is maybe going forward in years – but when I came in ’79 there for six months or so, I don’t know that we had all that much interaction, but then when we all moved to Texas and we were all living in the ranch house together, we were all seeing each other basically 24-7, I always had this sense that there was a tension, like this underlying resentment that Melody held towards you. I saw it in the way she interacted with you, in the things that she’d say or not say, and it just makes me think, going back to that time in California, how you came in; and I think (as in many things as I saw with Keith) is that what got done was what Keith decided would get done – right? It really wasn’t about what other people think or what other people want, so it’s like yep, this is what we’re doing. She probably didn’t have much say in it, but I always just had that sense that there was this underlying issue and it actually made me sad, because I felt like – wow, who’s there to be really tender and comforting towards Dawn. I just didn’t see that happening for you kind of on any level – but of course, I didn’t always see everything. I don’t know – does any of that ring true for you?

D: Well, I have to say that I did not get a lot of warm cuddlies from either of them. Just to be open about that. I did not feel comforted by either one of them, and I always felt like I was the red headed step-child, so to speak. Here I am, just trying to get through life here, and trying to get out on my own. Yeah, so it was a feeling of distance. I’m not saying she completely shunned me, but she was not all that involved in my life. I will say that when I was being homeschooled she did make sure that I improved my writing skills and my English, and had me do exercises – she’d leave me little notes on write about this, then she’d read over it and correct it and help me to get better. So it wasn’t like she was completely absent, but she was not warm and cuddly, but neither was Keith. I have a theory and opinion on what I think was the reason why Keith was not very positive towards me – I feel like he was afraid that if he were to compliment me or tell me I did a good job or anything along those lines, that I would become proud, and then pride cometh before a fall, God does not hear the prayers of those who are proud – things like that. So he was afraid to compliment me and what I learned from that was I’m not good enough. No matter how hard I tried I can’t please him, and the only attention I got – well, I can’t say only. I really shouldn’t. Most of the attention that I got from him was when I was in trouble.

S: I want to come back to that in trouble in just a moment, but I just want to say that yeah, the withholding of encouragement, the withholding of affirmation because of the fear of pride and certainly anybody who’s followed Last Days Ministries and the messages of Keith Green knows yeah, pride, that’s a big bad sin. And I know that Keith himself struggled with his own ego and his pride, so much. It’s an interesting thing how we often project onto others whatever our individual hangups are, right. So if we really are struggling with an area, we’re going to assume that everyone else is struggling as much, rather than seeing those things as yeah, that’s my own personal issue to deal with, but I don’t need to project and assume, and try to pound it out of everyone else; especially a young teenage girl that I have taken into my home and I’m going to father this kid. You know Dawn, that’s really tough, because especially as we are adolescent girls beginning to come into womanhood, that affirming father figure is so vital and so important. I’m not slamming Keith in the sense that you know, well he should have done a better job, because I don’t think any of us had really great father figures in our lives, but it’s a little ironic that the idea of okay, once you become a Christian and you’re following Jesus with all your heart, now you’re going to be able to be the best parent ever, but it doesn’t quite work out that way.

D: Right.

T: And I will just say, I came – I think you were still in high school when I came. People will know from my interview that I came for the first ICT school, and there was the introduction of the Father heart of God message. I know that was pretty revolutionary for the people who were there before that message came through, because there was absolutely a severity about the whole ministry. So stark to me, because I came from some charismatic church area where people were really emotive and that was a staggering reality to me, coming into the ranch house and working for the first time under people who had been there from the California days. It was as though it was sinful to smile. I remember actually writing that in my journal at one point. That was the tone of the place, and just imagining you coming from where you’re coming from, as a young girl into that severity – that’s the belief that’s coloring everything. So, yeah.

S: You said that you had interaction when you got into trouble. What sort of things did you get into trouble for?

D: Not being happy.

S: Really.

T: That is so ironic.

D: Yes. Not being happy. Having a bad attitude – because I wasn’t happy. I was lonely.

S: Right.

D: I was scared; I felt like I was losing my mind; I wasn’t good enough, I was just getting by, and hoping that I would not catch Keith’s attention, because it usually meant something was bad. Something was wrong.

S: Wow.

D: So yeah. It was frustrating because no matter what I did it wasn’t good enough, so why be happy.

S: Was that before the move to Texas, or mostly after, or both?

D: It was mostly after. Before we moved to Texas it got to the point I would actually lie about something that I did or didn’t do, because I was trying to avoid getting into trouble, and lying is a very, very serious sin, and Keith did take his belt off and hit me a few times – maybe three separate incidences.

S: Wow, wait. You were, what – 12 years old?

D: This was before we moved. We moved to Texas, I think I was 14 going on 15.

S: So the times he hit you with a belt, that was in California?

D: Yes. Yes.

S: I don’t remember him doing it when we were all living together in the house in Texas. Had it stopped when you got to Texas?

D: Correct. It did. Melody hit me once with the wooden spoon. I can’t remember what that was all about.

T: Well, as you’ll learn from different episodes, that is in instruction manuals on how to raise children in a lot of Christianity so …

S: It’s so fucked up.

T: It is. It’s one of my biggest regrets; if I could have a voice anywhere it would be to go to current churches and say you HAVE to stand against this message. The wooden spoon, rods, the belt – the studies are out; it’s very harmful to children, it doesn’t do the work they’re expecting it to do. I know we’ve talked again about not wanting to throw people under the bus or rake people over the coals, but to really call this out – this was standard practice among Christians in disciplining children, and you’re absolutely correct that lying is considered a terrible sin, so part of that theology is the pain is what will drive it out. We’re going to drive the sin out of these children. Sometimes you do that by striking. It’s so crazy, and it’s so against even the concept of the shepherd – they say the shepherd with the sheep. Have you ever seen a shepherd beat a sheep? It’s just so wrong in every way. I know they were young and still trying to figure out how to parent, but I’m absolutely sorry that you had to endure that. Every time it’s mentioned I just want to go on record and say this has got to stop. This is not how you discipline children.

D: I agree.

S: Sorry, but there’s this part of me that’s just like – at age 12 I did and I deeply regret the spanking we did with our children. Again, the scripture that says foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child; the rod of discipline will drive it far from him, and that whole manual idea that yes, the correct, the godly way to raise your children is – it says beat your son and he will live. It’s just so, so messed up. But even that kind of stopped by the time they were 5-6-7 years old, because at age 12 you’re talking about an adolescent. I don’t know – it just seems…

D: Yeah, and I think Keith was just trying to do his best.

S: I’m sure he was.

D: The best he knew how; that’s what he was taught and that’s what he believed, and that’s what he did. So I don’t know. There it is.

S: Yeah.

T:  Even in keeping you up through the night – eventually that would be kind of the style of how we would do it at Last Days and in times of confession; we would keep people, there would be meetings that would go seven or eight hours to foster that environment to finally confess. You’re exactly right Sharon, it’s the sleep deprivation, it’s the turmoil, the uncomfortability. I’ve had people reach out to me since we started this podcast saying they remember those days in the school, and they eventually made stuff up. The hot seat – they were on it, people were looking at them and they eventually just said something so everybody could end it and go to bed. It wasn’t just in – this is how we discipline a child. This is also ultimately how they believed God disciplined them. I know that’s a big theme in Keith’s life of really feeling that sense of intense guilt over his own sin.

S: For me, the whole point in so much of this is – as you said, Tracey, it’s not about raking somebody over the coals; you and I were 100% guilty as well. But it’s the continued veneration of this man and this system, and the bible, and the incredible commitment he had to the truth and no compromise, we’re going to follow the bible all the way. And that’s why we’re doing this. Because no. It’s not good. It’s not right. And because of the continued holding Keith up as this incredible example of the ideal Christian man – no, he’s just human. He’s just human like all the rest of us.

T: He’s human, and he was young. I can’t echo that enough, because there’d be no need to even go into all of this. We’ve all gotten older – who wants to have everything that we did when we were 20 brought out, but because that book has been written as the only record of wasn’t this the most amazing time, and the most amazing godly environment, and Jesus moved so amazing, and we all need to be like that – that’s what this portion is. No. No – we were young, and now we’re older, and we all need to be able to come to the record and say did we mean to do these things and cause harm? No, absolutely not, but now we can absolutely look back and say we got that very wrong.

S: Yep. So when we first moved to Texas, if I recall, you wound up in the dorm with all of – I don’t know, how many of us were there? Another 15 women sharing one bathroom? How did that feel for you? You were, what, 14 years old, and in this room just crammed with so many other – some of us teenagers, but others adults.

D: Right. I dunno. It was just something I had to deal with. I had to accept, it was not a choice. This is something I’ve been able to do most of my life and get through difficult times is – this is just the way it is, we’ll get through it and keep going and not let it get me down too bad. It was okay. Everybody was friendly, for the most part. I don’t remember arguments or people being nasty or mean. I could see it being even more difficult if there were conflicts in personality and people not getting along, but I think for the most part people were trying to be on their best behavior and be loving and kind to each other.

S: Yeah, and you already had some base of relationship with a good number of the women coming out of California – there was Michelle, and Carol, and Francine, and Podie – did you have any kind of like, friendship or camaraderie with anyone or were you still feeling very isolated?

D: Back in California I remember spending time with Podie, because I think she studied botany.

S: Yeah. Forestry I think, or something.

D: Yeah, something like that. And I was getting into plants. I had a bunch of plants in my bedroom, so I was learning some things from her. Francine and I got on pretty well, I spent some time with her. Later, after Keith, I did have some very good friendships with some people. I think it was because I was older and I was (in a way) on my own, if that makes sense, because I was no longer a child in a family.

S: Right.

D: So I had made some friendships afterwards. Before it was still kind of isolated.

S: Dawn, how did you feel when Josiah and later Bethany were born? What was your relationship with the kids?

D: Josiah and I were best buds. He was like my little brother. He felt like a familiar soul – you know what I mean?

T: Yes.

D: That kind of feeling. He was an amazing little being, a little person, and we got along very well. Bethany was a little pistol. She had to do things her way. It wasn’t as easy to take care of her. She was unique and I don’t know – I appreciated spending time with them but honestly I felt like I spent way more time with them than Keith and Melody did, and I felt it was a little bit of a burden, more than what I should have been forced to do. It was a requirement as part of my duties, as a member of the family. I guess you could put it that way.

T: Did you ever have those thoughts at that time? Is this something that as you’ve looked back you see that, or do you remember feeling that at the time? Like, I don’t get to get to go and play as much as I think a child my age should?

D: A little bit. There was a little bit of that – like, I’m not sure why I have to take care of their children all of the time. I don’t understand that. I can see being a member of the family and needing to do chores – we all shared a bathroom. This is in the little house across the street there – so I was required to clean the bathroom. I was okay with that, because that’s part of being part of the family and I used it too, but these are not my children. Why am I taking care of them after school, every single day. Why am I folding their laundry; why am I making their bed. Why am I washing their dishes in the morning that have been sitting on the counter, not rinsed. I mean, you could at least rinse them please, thank you. But I was required to wash their dishes before I could leave for school. I thought that was overstepping their bounds as parents. It’s not something that would be naturally part of being part of the family. That’s you being a live in maid – that’s what that is. But I have to tell you this; when I was 17 I did actually talk to Keith about having to watch the kids all the time and never being able to take care of and ride my horse. And I still to this day am amazed that I said anything, because I was so scared of Keith.

S: Yeah.

D: But I did. And he said you know what, I’ll think about it. And later he said I think Linda (can’t remember her last name) – she moved in and she took care of the kids all the time so that I didn’t have to. Which was cool – I still can’t believe that I talked to him about that; that I brought that up.

S: Yeah. Good for you, and good for him for listening. I remember being down at the house there; we would have leadership meetings, Martin and I and Wayne and Kath would come down, especially when the extension or the addition was put on. I do remember thinking that it didn’t matter what time of day it was, whether it was morning, afternoon or evening, that you were obligated to look after the children – a lot. It just seemed unbalanced and inappropriate, and kind of like you weren’t really the daughter; you were the convenient child care provider. That was my impression. Of course, I was probably too afraid, or not thinking anything about it in terms of my ability to step in and say something to Keith or Mel, but I’m so proud of you for finding that courage to speak up on your behalf. That was something that was really suppressed. In that culture and that environment you do not speak up on behalf of yourself; you don’t ask for anything for yourself; it’s all about let’s continue to sacrifice, for God, for the Kingdom, for the ministry.

T: Yeah, and I have to jump in here because that was something when I came in. I often was watching things and noticing things and tucking things away. You’re exactly right – who am I to jump into a situation, if I think something is a bit off, I don’t know the whole story, I don’t know where they’re at, but I do know the people who then moved in to take care of the children have had a lot of years of having to unwind some of the abuse that they felt also, that echoes very much what Dawn was feeling, as far as being taken advantage of; being taken for granted and not treated very well; treated as housekeepers, treated as babysitters. So I am very glad that you got some relief from that, but as we’ve been talking about, this whole kind of culty vibe – that’s one of the classic signs. One of my first jobs coming in there was to take Josiah to school and it didn’t last very long, but I did arrive in the morning – it was definitely something I noticed and Sharon, I’ve heard you notice; it wasn’t right. The way that the jobs were assigned, this was not right, it was a step too far, and I think a lot of people have had to unwind all that. Again, we get it, we all were young, they’re staying up late because they’re musicians, but then when you tell that tale…

S: No, no, no, wait. I can’t let that one go. Staying up late because they’re musicians? No, that’s just a bullshit excuse. You’re staying up late because you don’t want to have the discipline you’re imposing on everybody else at this fucking place. Right?

T: On everybody else!

S: Why? Because the rules don’t apply to you because you have some special gift or some special calling, or some special whatever, and I’m sorry – it’s just bullshit. Okay, you can continue.

T: Yeah, and we have to call that out. Again, because it hasn’t been called out. I look back now – if I’m going to write a book about my younger years, I’m going to call that out. I was crazy here. I abused my kids here. I didn’t set out the right environment that’s conducive for their development. I don’t say I was the most amazing parent and these were amazing times that Jesus just moved and we were all just sold out to Jesus – I don’t describe it that way. And that’s part of why I was so happy to reconnect with you Dawn, and also be able to say hey, these things that we were picking up that seemed to really be screaming into my intuition – were we off base? And then be able to say hey, we saw it. And we are sorry that that was the vibe at the time, and that we all were in kind of the same stew and not be able to say things, and then how awesome you are for enduring all that and getting ahead of the story of the different things you have to share of how you’ve come out of all that. But we echo that we recognize yes, that was a step too far, and abusive.

S: Yeah. It was using and abusing someone. I think Dawn, you mentioned feeling really lonely there in Texas, which makes sense – come on, we were all out in the middle of nowhere. And you loved and had this great relationship with Josiah and also felt (even though she was difficult) some affinity with Bethany and so I can imagine that would be an internal conflict; you’re getting probably the human interaction that you need, you’re getting more from these toddlers than you are from others, and yet you’re having this responsibility imposed on you, which wasn’t fair, but it was kind of a mixed bag, I would imagine.

D: Yeah. Yeah it was. I mean, it was enjoyable to take care of them, I appreciated that time with them but at the same time it was too much. Like I said, being a member of the family – yeah, I understand doing my part. If we all sit down to dinner, helping out with the dishes or helping with the cooking, stuff like that – I’m okay with that. But it was too much. I remember thinking – there were times we were on the road and I was watching the kids, and I was thankful – well there was one time (I’ll say this) one time when Melody said I could go on, take a break from watching the kids, and I did not because they were not paying attention, and those kids were all over the place. Melody is very social, she loves to talk to people. She’s not like Keith in that she loves to be involved with people, and that’s where she just kind of was stand-offish with a lot of people because didn’t want to get involved (my opinion) – but she was very social and loved to talk to people, but she was distracted. The kids were running around and they were climbing on stuff, and I’m like, I’m not taking a break, I need to watch these kids because they’re not paying attention.

S: You were worried for their physical safety?

D: Yes! They were climbing on stuff, they could have fallen off and hurt themselves, and nobody was watching. But at the same time I was thinking they have these children, these beautiful children and they don’t spend very much time with them. I mean, they really don’t spend very much time, because I’m the one that’s got them all of the time. And when it wasn’t me, it was somebody else. So, after school I was usually taking care of the kids, but I did have time to take care of the horses on the weekend, because I did stuff with the horses on the weekend.

S: Yeah.

D: You and I did stuff with the horses on the weekend.

S: We did!

D: Yeah.

S: Let’s talk about that for a second, cos I remember…

T: I have to jump in and ask a question, because for those of our listeners who heard Sharon’s interview with I was a Teenage Fundamentalist, she talks about horses actually being an idol in her life before coming to Last Days and having to lay that down. So now we’re talking about a horse at Last Days, so you guys, can you fill me in on how that happened?

…

Did Sharon do take-backs with God?

Did she make a golden idol in the shape of a horse?

Will the ground open up and have one of them for lunch??

[laughter]

S: Alright, anybody wondering about that last bit, you’ve got to go google the song by Keith Green So You Want To Go Back To Egypt. I gotta admit, those were some pretty funny lyrics, and they still make me chuckle.

T: Yes, so please stay tuned for part two, dropping next week, to find out how both Dawn and Sharon were able to bond over their love of horses, and definitely find some reprieve as more painful events continue to unfold.

S: Mmm. Yep. And, if you are enjoying our podcast, please follow or subscribe – it only takes a click to do that. We’re old, but we’re learning that this actually helps other people find us when they are searching, and if you have a moment more, give us a rating with just another click; and if you’re super-ambitious and can spare 30 seconds, maybe even leave a review comment as well.

T: And you can also follow us on Instagram – Feet of Clay.CultSisters to see images and get the latest updates. Thanks so much for listening everyone, we’ll see you again next time.

S: See ya round.