This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 014 – The Plane Crash that Killed Keith Green

July 12, 2023

T: Hi, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And we are Feet of Clay…

T: Confessions of the Cult Sisters. Ho, and today, well, we’ve got a pretty intense topic.

S: Yeah Tracey, we do. Today we are going to talk about a very profound, truly life-altering event – not only for us, and not only for the 100 or so people who were there in Texas that day, but also for literally hundreds of thousands of people who were later influenced to change the course of their entire lives. That even was the private plane crash that killed Christian music legend Keith Green back on July 28^th, 1982.

T: Some might ask why are we talking about this, and we do want to reiterate that we’re not trying to hurt anyone or retraumatize anyone, or really drag anyone through the mud; what we’re trying to do is bring what happened that day in July out into the light. I’m telling you Sharon, we’re not doing this lightly. This has actually been a pretty tough topic to do the research on and review – at least for me.

S: Oh yeah. Yeah. On so many levels for me – so many. I predict we’re probably going to get some flak for this one, but I think it’s important.

T: It is. We do have an amazing interview with Dawn Green – Dawn Ziemer is her name, but she’s known to most people as Keith and Melody’s foster daughter Dawn Green. She is the only living person who experienced Keith as a father, and we’re going to be dropping that this month, so you will not want to miss her story. As we realize, many listeners probably need some background on just that event, and Last Days Ministries in general.

S: Putting it into context. So those who have been with us on this podcast for our first dozen or so episodes, you’re probably used to hearing us finding humor and laughing in the midst of all this crazy shit and painful stuff we talk about. As we get into this though, my guess today is there’s not going to be a whole lot of that laughter – if any – on this this topic.

T: Yeah, but don’t tune out folks. Yes, this is definitely some hard stuff but it is really important background and insight that, as you said earlier, changed the trajectory of our ministry and of so many lives who ended up joining missions as a result.

S: Yep. And I promise that in the future there’ll be lots of laughter and crassness in the weeks to come, so we’ll make up for it.

T: Yes, and we can usually count on Sharon’s salty language and innuendo for sure.

S: Amen! Amen!

T: But in doing this – and I guess in the last few episodes – we do have to give a trigger warning again. This time we will be talking about the crash of a private airplane and the deaths of 12 people, which also includes eight children. There will be details that could be very disturbing to some, so as always, take care of yourself and please use discretion on what you’re listening to.

S: Okay. Let’s get into this. For over 40 years, probably every single July since 1982, there has been a controlled narrative about what happened that day. You know Tracey, we’ve both remarked that as we think about it over the last 40 years, no one else has come forward to really give any account, other than the company line, on all these things with Keith and Last Days.

T: Mmhmm.

S: I think a major driver for that narrative has been promotion; of course, promoting a certain belief system and the “kingdom of God” but there’s also promotion for some pretty clear financial benefit, without a doubt.

T: Yes, yes there is. It’s interesting; we’re in July, we’re recording and dropping this in July, and it just so happens we’re on the recent news of the tourist submarine catastrophe. You know – Oceangate made headlines. Many people were riveted to the news. The mini-sub, the Titan, which took tourists down to see the wreck of the Titanic…

S: For $250,000 per person!

T: Crazy. It just seems crazy. And of course, sadly, as details have emerged about the head guy Stockton Rush, both Sharon and I have been struck with some of the very uncomfortable parallels, especially hubris. Hubris, hubris, hubris. And arrogance, and disregard for important safety measures, and what in essence was a sight seeing tour. A joyride to the bottom of the ocean, and the similarities are quite disturbing.

S: Yeah, they really are. So you know, Tracey you and I have talked about this quite a bit, and thinking of this guy Stockton Rush, in all the public news right now he’s viewed and portrayed as this reckless, money driven egomaniac, whose decisions literally killed innocent. Now in contrast to that, there’s this almost martyr status that’s been conferred onto Keith Green, and this kind of romanticizing of his death by many devoted Christians, and we’ve thought why? Why?

T: Right. That is a very good question, because his death, while not on a missions trip; not going into the jungles to bring salvation to people;

S: Not even a concert! Not even going to a concert.

T: Not even going to a concert. His death has been used to promote ideologies that are abusive, many of his teachings cultivate guilt and self-loathing, for never being committed enough as Christians, like Keith was – and then this commemoration of his life and death kind of spun out and took on its own life. And it ultimately was used as a recruiting tool to funnel people into another unhealthy, controlling Christian organization, that I think you and would call a multi-level marketing organization…

S: It’s MLM, for sure.

T: Youth With A Mission. Quickly, the book came out about Keith’s life; the book that’s often in our show notes called No Compromise, written by Melody Green. People read that; I’ve heard it, I think you’ve heard it – well Melody does such a good job of just showing the faults of Keith in there.

S: Mmhmm.

T: And that’s not our perspective, is it Sharon.

S: Not quite. I mean, you’re right, people say isn’t it wonderful how honest she was in showing his shortcomings, and yes, absolutely it is true there are stories that do put him in a not all positive light. But I’m sorry folks, those “faults” are talked about almost with a bit of oh tut tut, that was just a little unfortunate. Like, accounts of his rudeness that makes for cute stories after the fact. And some of it is also hey, that’s what we expect of a prophet – a hard-hitting, no compromise kind of guy who is totally sold out for Jesus. These things are just part and parcel, they’re just gonna come along with. So yes, in the book they are admitted to as weaknesses, but these character issues; they were way more than mere weaknesses. They were actually abusive and controlling and ultimately fatal.

T: Ultimately fatal.

S: And remember – I loved Keith. I still love Keith, and I’m always going to be thankful for certain things he brought into my life, but those good things do not offset the full story, including his part in this plane crash.

T: Oh, that’s exactly right. So, part of my revisiting of this happened over a year ago as my own son started getting his private pilot’s licence, and then moving towards a bush pilot licence. Part of his training is we would review crash reports – that’s something that the pilots do so they can learn from and be able to avoid some of the same catastrophic mistakes that other pilots have made and has happened. When we pulled up the Keith Green plane crash, that was the first time I had ever, ever heard of some of the details that came from that crash report.

S: Yeah. It’s been really staggering. Really staggering. I have run a full gamut of emotions on this.

T: Yeah. You and I – we’ve talked at different times about this plane crash, but we’ve never fully unpacked this together. I know I’ve heard some frustration, and sometimes anger when we’ve referenced it, and I’ve always wondered a little bit more why you haven’t expressed more grief, because I considered you as someone who was very close to Keith.

S: Mmm. You know. I’ve asked myself that question, too. I don’t know that I have all the answers, but I think understanding it a little bit more, especially in these last few months. So in the moment there, at the crash site, there was of course shock and horror and fear and confusion, and definitely there was sorrow but I somehow walled that off. I walled off any expression of that sorrow. As I told you recently, I didn’t actually cry or grieve in that sense, until just this past spring, and that’s more than 40 years after the crash.

T: Wow.

S: So it was just in April of 23, that morning when I was doing my final preparations for the interview I was going to do with Troy and Brian on their podcast I was a Teenage Fundamentalist, and the again after we finished the interview and I hung up the connection, I was by myself and Tracey, I just sobbed. I just sobbed, for the first time ever about it. I just wanted to say Keith, man, Keith, what the heck Keith? Why did you do that? And missing things about him that were wonderful. Yeah.

T: Mmhmm. Well, I think as we go into a lot of our reactions to that time, people might understand why that makes sense; that that grief was kind of put on the shelf for so long. We’ll dive into that in a little bit more, but before we get into that I want to give the facts out there so that people can follow along. So, what happened – the crash itself, right? So again, July 28^th, 1982 – that’s a day Sharon that you and I we know, we don’t even have to look in our calendars. Absolutely that’s an instilled date that we notice is coming. It happened at about 7:20 in the evening, about an hour before sunset in Texas. That would be the Garden Valley, Lindale area of East Texas. There was a twin-engine plane, it was a 1973 Cessna 414, 7 seaters which typically have controls for the pilot as well as the co-pilot. The facts, which we’ll get into maybe leading up to why this happened, but the plane was overloaded.

S: Yeah.

T: There were 7 seats and 12 people that were crammed inside, so if you do that math – not a seatbelt for everybody. Four adults and eight children. Of course the pilot, Don Burmeister, who we will speak about; Keith Green; two of his children Josiah and Bethany who were four and two years old; and then a visiting family who had just come in to visit the ministry, John and Dede Smalley and their six children ages from 12 all the way down to about three. The plane was officially overloaded by almost 500lbs, 455lbs to be exact.

S: Yeah. So one thing I know, and I haven’t seen it mentioned very much, is that the plane was equipped with this after market thing called a STOL kit. That stands for short take off and landing. My understanding is that this equipment decreases the length of runway needed for take-off, and also increases the overall weight capacity of the plane. However, I’m not at all an expert on this and I do recall there being a question after the crash, whether or not the STOL flaps had been engaged at the time of take-off, and I don’t remember the answer or whether that was something that could be known.

T: Yes, I know that in all the reports I’ve read I’ve not seen or read anybody mentioning that fact, but what I have read is that the center of gravity was too far back.

S: Yeah. And this was huge. If not the most critical factor. Although I can’t find documentation, I remember we were told at the time that at least John was riding in the very, very back of the plane, and he was a pretty big guy. The NTSB report that you and I have been able to read said the center of gravity was too far back, so I’m assuming they had to have known the positions and estimated weights of the various passengers. I don’t know how else they could have calculated that.

T: Yes. The NTSB, which we’ll put in our show notes, stands for the National Transportation Safety Board. They go into pretty detailed lengths whenever investigating any kind of plane crash, and it lists some very interesting facts. The report says that in the 20 to 30 second flight, the plane oscillated violently two to three times.

S: That means the nose was going up then down, then up then down, then up then down. And note the word violent. That is the word used in the NTSB report.

T: Yes. I think some people refer to that as porpoising, and I know in talking with my son who is now a private pilot, he talks about training they are given to help mitigate that porpoising effect. So the facts of this crash is the plane crashed into the trees; we had a long runway and at the end was a line of trees, and the plane kept going for about 150 feet. It had full fuel tanks, so when it grazed the trees it fell to the ground and exploded on impact because of the full fuel tanks. The overall ruling on multiple points was pilot error, primarily because of the overloading, and most importantly, we think from reading these reports, is the improper weight balance plus the disregard of the training requirements that were needed to fly this particular aircraft. It wasn’t long before a lawsuit followed, and it was surrounding the insurance claims and the civil wrongful death from the relatives of the Smalley family. Remember they weren’t part of the ministry, they were just visiting. Last Days in the end was held responsible and lost all those lawsuits.

S: Right. And the insurance company was upheld as denying the claim because of negligence on the part of the ministry.

T: Mmhmm.

S: Alright, I think we need to give some detail and background on Keith and Don.

T: So, Don Burmeister was 36 years old. You know Sharon, when I think back I used to think that seemed so old and mature, and now at the place and stage that we’re in I see that wow, that is so young and so much in the prime of his life. He was a marine fighter pilot, he’d flown jets for the military and also had a degree in civil engineering.

S: I gotta insert this. My husband is a civil engineer and let me tell you, as a group these are the guys who dot all the i’s and cross every t to the point sometimes of annoyance.

T: Yes! Yes they do, which is the other part of what makes this such an odd event. Don Burmeister was known for his smile that could just light up his face, and that was noticeable in the time where there was a lot of severity at Last Days Ministries.

S: Yeah.

T: He was kind and gentle. They sold everything that they had, he and his wife, who became a really close friend of mine, Janet. They sold their beautiful house in the northwest that was built into this hill, with a gorgeous view, to live in a trailer and put in on the Last Days Ministries property.

S: And of course, they paid for that out of their pockets. They were volunteers.

T: They were volunteers. At that time we didn’t provide couples housing, so if you were a couple who wanted to give of your amazing talent and skill, you still had to buy your own house and be responsible to get it on the property.

S: Paying for the privilege of serving, right.

T: Paying for the privilege of serving, and they had such a servants heart.

S: They did.

T: They really believed in the ministry, and believed in what Keith was doing.

S: Yeah, they did.

T: Don also oversaw the building of the airstrip and the hangar. Now, when I got there in January of 1982 the airstrip was already built, but not the hangar, if I recall.

S: Mmm. I don’t remember what the timing of it was. I do remember flying with Don in the single engine airplane from Last Days to DFW, that’s Dallas Forth Worth airport. I was 20 years old and it was my first time ever in a small plane, and I do remember it feeling a little scary when we were landing because there was a steep descent, but Don still did instil confidence, even for me a scared little person, first time in a little plane.

T: Were there any other passengers on that plane?

S: No, that one was just me because I think Keith and Melody and Martin and whomever else had flown ahead – both planes were going, but they were in the Cessna, the 7 seater, and there wasn’t enough room for me apparently, so that’s why I flew in the little single engine.

T: Wow. So the day and time of the crash, we can assume that Don was probably very fatigued as he had been up early flying to Dallas. Also, Sharon you’ll remember this – we had required fasting once a week.

S: Ohh that’s right. Sorry. Every fucking Wednesday we all were required to fast from after dinner Tuesday night until we had dinner on Wednesday night. And it was imposed. This was not optional; you had to do this, whether you wanted to or not.

T: Yes.

S: And do you remember, when you’d have dinner and you hadn’t eaten for 24 hours, you have dinner – do you remember the feeling of just absolute sluggishness of oh man my body now just wants to sleep because all the blood is going to my stomach.

T: Yes. And especially for some of the men at the ministry who were doing some pretty hard labor during the day and then coming in pretty hungry, so we can assume that was probably not the best physical condition for Don to be in, right, fasting all day, being up early, being out, fasting and then having dinner…

S: And then Keith comes calling to say let’s go for a plane ride. I’m getting ahead; sorry about that.

T: No, that is true; Keith comes calling to get in the plane ride. I think why that’s important is the other part when you listen to the pilots discuss this; there wasn’t pre-flight planning done, and we’ll get into the details of how that impacts that, but Don was not yet fully certified. I notice that you took the single engine plane with Don, and this was the twin engine plane, and he was not yet certified on the Cessna 414.

S: I’m not even sure if he was certified on the single engine. I’m gonna back this up – it’s the organization’s responsibility. It is the organization, this non-profit ministry, Last Days Ministries, headed up by Keith Green who reviewed every single contract; it is up to the organization to ensure compliance. So – again, I’m getting head, I’m sorry.

T: Yes, it’s a key point in the insurance suits that would follow, that he was not certified on this. He had 59 hours as co-pilot and only 2 hours as pilot.

S: One of the things I’m not certain about is whether that certification was also a legal requirement; were there some FAA guidelines or laws about being able to transport passengers? That I don’t know about.

T: Yeah, and I don’t know the law and how much the FAA breeches into that, but I do know following my son’s trajectory that there are absolutely stipulations on when you can take passengers, and he follows that, and the logbook – which will come into play as we talk more about that – is very, very important to a pilot to make sure they are logging the appropriate hours that allow them to get the qualifications necessary for the certifications. So, it was definitely an insurance company requirement, which makes sense right; if you’re going to insure this plane you want to make sure that the pilot in command is certified appropriately.

S: Mmm. Okay. Alright, so now we’re going to talk about Keith. Keith Green. He was 28 years old at the time, and as most of you probably know – or those who don’t, he was pretty much the Christian music superstar of the 70s and early 80s, and was touted by many, including us, to be a prophet of God. There is this YouTube video (and we’ll put a link in the show notes about it) where the guy who was doing an investigation and trying to talk with folks and get more background, says that Keith was “black and white, in your face type personality” – and that is true. That is how Keith was. But in this little video, the guy also says that he “interviewed another Christian artist who has spent some time with Keith, and said that Keith was extremely law abiding, felt that it was what a Christian should be about; not even one mile over the speed limit type of law abiding.” And I can tell you that was definitely not true, not true, far, far from it.

T: Exactly. That’s one of my pet peeves and what irks me so much, that people – Christian musicians, Christian leaders who maybe saw Keith on the performance stage and may have hung out with him at dinner after a great concert, think that they can speak so much about the man and make public declarations. And I also had limited time with him; Sharon, you had much more time with him, but when you live in a commune setting you get to know people pretty well.

S: Yah, you do. And the fact is, Keith was a huge risk taker, and he kind of prided himself in it. I will say, without a doubt, he was an unsafe driver. He was usually speeding, he often passed other cars on double yellow lines, and he’d be laughing and proud of it. I remember when we’d ask him to slow down or not pass that car he’d pretty much laugh and say something like don’t you trust God? I’ve talked to quite a number of other people who have driven with Keith in cars, and everybody said the same thing.

T: Ohhh. That is – I haven’t heard you say that before, but that is really bad.

S: The other crazy thing is he wanted to get his own pilot licence. The four of us who were on leadership, which was Martin, my then husband, myself, Wayne and Kathleen Dillard – the four of us said (and we told him to his face) we will never fly in a plane if you are the pilot, Keith. We don’t trust you. You’re not safe. We will never fly with you. And not only did Keith really like taking risks and pushing the limits, he also kind of made fun of others for having any fear. He did it in this sort of friendly, sort of joking way, but it was mocking nonetheless. It usually had also this element of tying back into the idea of that person not having enough faith. Kind of like a shame game he was playing.

T: I can totally see that. And if you think you’re a prophet – what’s the scripture where Satan says Jesus cast yourself off this mountain, angels will catch you – so I think there’s definitely some belief system that would think he may have been a little indestructible.

S: Yeah.

T: Alright, so we’re going to talk about the crash itself, and in order to really get the kind of context of what was going on that day, and I talk about how you were much closer to Keith than I was, I want to hear your history and your relationship with him leading up to the time when this happened.

S: Okay. Well, I’ve kind of already covered a lot of the basics in that interview with Troy and Brian, I was a Teenage Fundamentalist – people can go listen to it there. Keith was like a spiritual father or big brother to me. Quickly – I’ll quickly try to go. So, he personally led me to the Lord when I was 14; he was 21. At his urging I dropped out of college at age 17 and moved and joined Last Days Ministries. At 18 he arranged my marriage to the only single elder – which is funny, because early 20s, but the elder at Last Days. After the wedding (and I was 19 when I got married) I joined the leadership team of Last Days which was Keith, the two elders Wayne and Martin, and then the wives; Melody, Kathleen and me. So on a personal level, Martin and I became very, very close to Keith and Melody, as far as we were spending a lot of our personal time together. We’d go to dinners; we’d go to restaurants; we’d go to movies; we’d hang out at their house late at night on the weekends; we’d play games; and when he planned a vacation to Europe he wanted us to come along because he said hey, it’s not going to be any fun without you guys – so we did. Keith put us in his will to raise his children if he and Melody died, so it was a pretty close relationship.

T: Yeah, so you mention that, and we will put it in the show notes, where you do go into some great detail with your interview with dear Troy and Brian. When I came into the ministry I could see you were a part of that inner circle, and I remember a couple of us in the school were – she’s so young, she’s so beautiful, she’s so…godly.

{laughter]

T: So I guess those are the facts of how you hung out with them and were pretty close, but as far as you feeling that emotional connection, either to Keith, also to Melody, and I mean, if you were placed as the godparents (I guess – I don’t know if it was called that) of their kids, did you make a point to spend time with them? How would you describe your emotional connection to them during this time after you were married?

S: Well, with the kids – you know, I do remember when we’d hang out we were often – Josiah and Bethany would be around, we’d be doing things. I remember, I think, playing with Bethany out with the horses, and as far as the feelings – you know, it’s kind of confusing. I will say I never felt a close personal connection with Melody, and part of that is I just don’t think Melody formed close personal connections with really, anybody. With Keith it was confusing. I remember when I lived in Arizona – I’m a teenager, we’ve got this long distance, he’s writing and calling, we’re writing and calling back and forth; I really did feel a sense of his personal interest and care and concern for me the person – how am I doing? How is Sharon doing? It was the same when I first came out to California and joined the ministry, and I think also in the beginning in Texas, that first six months, or whatever. And then there was this shift; I don’t really know why.

T: When you talk about a shift, do you know when in the story timeline that happened?

S: I don’t know if that was before Keith set up the engagement between me and Martin; if it was immediately after; I don’t really remember for sure. As you said, we worked six days a week, 12 hours a day, so lots of stuff is a blur.

T: Mmhmm.

S: But the shift was he became very businesslike with me. I was definitely given a lot of responsibilities within the organization but I noticed I would see him laughing and being very personable and warm with other sisters like Michelle and Carol and Podie. But it seemed that things in his interactions with me shifted. There were times  it fell back to that warmth, like he was asking me to go to livestock auctions and we’d buy cows and horses, and even towards the end I remember when we took the trip to Europe, eating pizza together in the train station in Milan, Italy. The two of us were really laughing – he and I thought this was just the best pizza ever. Those were times I could feel that connection and the warmth of friendship, and then there were other times that it was just business and distant. I remember one time I had made this huge mistake Tracey – I don’t know if I’ve even told you about it, and Keith did not pound me for it in the way I expected. It was the release of his third album So You Want To Go Back To Egypt. This was the first album that was going to be in the whatever you can afford policy, so we were going to pack and ship these albums out to all these individuals who had placed orders. We were going to do this in our warehouse, and we had this new high tech piece of equipment that would take rolls of corrugated material that had pressure-sensitive adhesive on one side, and then was printed with Last Days Ministries stuff on the other.

T: Yes, I ran that album packing machine behind you.

S: After me. Okay.

T: When you moved onto bigger and better things, I came up behind and did that.

S: Alright, well anyway. It was my job to order all this custom packaging stuff. I calculated okay, how many albums are we expecting to ship; what’s the linear inches for each package; what’s the margin you need for the area to cut and crimp and so I did the math and I placed the order. So the albums arrive, and we start shipping them out. It was going to be a burn, just like it always was, we were going to keep going until it was done. We’re about a quarter of the way through, and I start noticing that this stack of these giant rolls of corrugated – they seemed to be dwindling down faster than I expected. I had this sudden horror realizing that I had forgotten to double the linear inches needed.

T: Ohhhhh.

S: Each album needs to have the packaging – you have one roll feeding at the top and one roll feeding at the bottom to create this package. I was just horrified at myself – what a total failure, and I’m the reason these albums will be delayed, maybe by weeks or months. So I went to Keith and I told him how I had just blown it. And he wasn’t angry. He wasn’t encouraging; he was just neutral. For me that felt like such a gift from him, because I just felt horrible.

T: Had you seen him lash out at other people, or what made you dread or fear?

S: Yeah, I had. I had seen him get impatient. I had seen him get impatient and blaming, and that’s what I expected.

T: And you were like, 19 probably, at the time?

S: You know, I don’t know. We’d have to go back and see – when was that album released?

T: Yeah – you were young.

S: I was 19 or 20 at the oldest. So anyway, when Keith was connecting with me on a personal level, it felt fantastic. Like, I had value for the kingdom of God, and that he personally liked and enjoyed hanging out with me. When he was kind of more clinical and businesslike, I think I internalized that to mean I wasn’t as good a person as the others he was being friendly with. And yet, he wanted me to raise his children if Keith and Mel died, so it was kind of a mind bender.

T: Yes.

S: I do remember a few years later when I was pregnant with my first child, I remember feeling really sad that Keith wouldn’t be there with me when I held my baby for the first time. I think it’s like, recognizing he held that really special place in my life and in my heart that no one else did.

T: Yes, and when you think about the loss for so many that day, you were one of those that lost in a very big way.

S: Yeah.

T: So, you’re busy – from my perspective, you were at the helm of most of the operations, at least in the tract department and the album department, where I eventually came in and worked. So you seemed to have a lot of trust of Keith. A lot of responsibility; we would witness you guys kind of laughing and hanging out and imagining just the devastating news – can you remember where you were when you knew that the plane went down?

S: Well, I don’t remember that part of it. I almost certainly would have been in our big, red metal building, that was the printing and fulfilment, data entry offices – all that sort of stuff. We know that it was Wednesday evening after dinner so we would have all been working – you know, going back in to work.

T: Yes, and for the listeners, in those days we did work till 10pm so we had fasted all day, gone in, gobbled our dinner down – so you were probably back at work. I know I was downstairs in the area and I don’t remember seeing you so I assume you were probably upstairs in the red building. Do you remember who came and got you?

S: I don’t. I don’t remember that. We know because of the reports that the plane went down at about 7:20pm and that’s about an hour before sunset. I remember going outside, looking down the end of the runway; seeing the black smoke just billowing up from the woods down past the end. I can’t remember who told me or how I heard. How about you?

T: I was in the tract department finishing up the orders, and we had a side door from the tract department that went out toward the runway and toward the hangar. Somebody did come in – I think I remember who, but I won’t say it because I’m not sure. The question was, did you guys notice if the plane took off. That made everybody in the tract department walk out that door, and immediately you could see the smoke billowing from behind the trees, and I remember my first thought was maybe it’s a controlled burn from one of the farmers.

S: That’s right; they used to sometimes burn the hayfields, but this was the wrong time of year for that.

T: Correct. So somebody came in and I guess said something to you that made you go outside. What do you remember doing next?

S: Mmmf. I’m going to say some of these memories are very sharp – like, you know, a photo or video that’s in my brain, and others are foggy and vague. I think I got into a car with some other folks, which probably or might have been Melody and others, and drove to the end of the runway. The end of the runway – after that was this fence, where our property ended and then there was a field that belonged to someone else after that. Then after that field there was woods. We couldn’t get through the fence so somehow got back up to the buildings, then I grabbed one of the other sisters; I think she was a little younger than me, her name was Liz – we both were into riding horses, and I was like, how are we going to get there? I see there’s this off in the woods; there’s no roads, it’s way off the highway. So we go and grab two horses and saddle them up super-fast, and just go galloping, riding through the woods to try to get to this crash site.

T: Wow. Did you see anything? Let me back up – the ones of us who went out, and obviously we could see some smoke at that point; sisters were coming to us hey, do you guys know where the pilots are, so everyone’s trying to put together if a plane went out. No one still knew if a plane went up or not, but you could feel the frenzied activity starting to happen, so I guess in the midst of that you were taking horses and going out and we all were in a circle joining hands and starting to pray. Did you see anything from that end of the runway?

S: No, well see, I went off to the left; the hills and the woods on the left and we got through and around the fencing area and into the open wooded area and came up to the crash site. It was still smouldering. There was this big, black burned area, of course, all around this charred and mangled plane fuselage. The trees all around it – they’re broken, they’re burned; all the leaves are gone right, so there’s these bare, scorched branches and tree trunks. A friend I’ve talked to recently remembers seeing lots and lots of the kids’ flip flops on the ground, just strewn around. I didn’t recall that. But like I said, I wonder how much of what I remember is what I really saw, or was some of it later what I dreamed? One thing I see so clearly is an image of a charred body still sitting in a seat with a blackened skull. I remember wondering which one of these is Keith?

T: So at that time, were you sure that Keith was on the plane?

S: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I was. You know what, I don’t remember at that point. No, yeah, I was, because with Melody we knew that Keith was on the plane, because being originally trying to get to the site earlier with Mel.

T: Mm. That’s right, because I think at that time she was the only one because there was no pre-flight planning, she was the only one who knew who had had gone up, because the rest of us were still very confused at who was the pilot and what had happened.

S: I don’t know if I knew the kids were on board at that point, or anybody. It would just be I knew Keith was. I don’t remember any smell; it was eerie and quiet. There’s no talking, there’s no music playing like in a movie.

T: Oh, it’s just devastating.

S: Yeah, it’s just quiet. There were some other people there; Liz who I mentioned came with me on the horses; there were a few brothers, there were a few sisters; Martin had gotten there, Wayne had gotten there. I think I remember seeing Melody from a distance on the other side.

T: Oh my god.

S: I remember walking around the wreckage, definitely in shock, standing there looking at it. it was just surreal. It started to get dark, and I don’t remember if we got back on the horses to ride them or just walked and led them back through the woods and the fields as it grew darker.

T: Do you remember the storm that came in, and do you remember if you made it back before the storm rolled in?

S: I don’t remember the storm. I hear other people talking about it; I think I was just so in my head, just so in my head I do not remember the storm.

T: So, in East Texas storms were not unusual to come through, and I would have to look up the weather reports to know exactly what time it happened in relation to the crash, but the darkness you did see settling over was more than just evening settling in; a very intense lightning and thunderstorm was rolling in. The sky grew intensely dark and the streaks of lightning were dramatic, and the bolts of thunder were like, epic.

S: I’m sorry, I’m going to laugh right now, even though I said I probably wouldn’t. It’s like, wow that makes for a really great narrative for a movie, doesn’t it.

T: It does! And of course we’re so conditioned to read the signs and see what is happening, and it was a dramatic thunderstorm, and of course the narrative began internally amongst several of us brothers and sisters is God is demonstrating his grief. Right. He is demonstrating his grief in the heavens as we are taking all this in. Lots of theology gets mixed up on everything, but I think the overarching thought was the devil has struck God’s anointed and God is angry, and what the devil has done and meant for bad, God will turn to good. That is a narrative that I think continues to this day.

S: Oh my god, so I’m just gonna say this. Martin and I and Wayne and Kathleen; I remember the four of us getting together privately, and we were all – obviously we’ve got shock and numbness and confusion; I think our overwhelming feeling was anger.

T: Wow.

S: It was like Keith, why did you do such a stupid thing? I mean, every one of us felt like he was the one responsible for this, and I felt like Keith, why did you DO this to us? Now you’ve left us this mess! What were you thinking? Those were my thoughts, for sure.

T: Well that’s interesting, because those thoughts never funnelled back down to the rest of us.

S: Of course not. Too much to protect.

T: Too much to protect, but I don’t ever remember hearing that there was anger at Keith for being reckless and irresponsible.

S: Yeah.

T: Huh. So I don’t know when you had those private meetings; I don’t know how many days or hours after the event that that took place.

S: You know, I don’t remember exactly either, but it was pretty quickly. Yeah.

T: And you said at the beginning of this that you didn’t grieve for many, many years later, which is not uncommon for people who have conditioned trauma responses, but do you remember what you did start doing?

S: So, it’s funny because some of this I don’t remember doing, but other people have told me that I did. I apparently gathered everybody together and said everybody needs to call their parents so that they know you’re safe and that you weren’t killed. I think we did some organizing to get the phones manned, because okay, we’re going to start getting calls.

T: You did! And that was me, and I think I was obviously in shock that all this was happening, and then I got appointed to be on the phones and I remember thinking – because there wasn’t any internet, and of course there was the Christian radio stations but I don’t think I thought of how quickly this news would travel across the country.

S: Right.

T: I remember thinking, because my dad – my mom was in the hospital at the time and I was like, my dad’s not going to hear about this! Why am I going to call my dad? Who’s going to be calling us? I did get put on the phones, and I don’t know how many of us there were, but there were several of us, and I’m telling you they rang non-stop. Non-stop. We got calls from around the world asking about what had happened; was the ministry going to go on? Some people in goodness just called to share their sorrow and that they were praying for us, but some of the questions that came that night – is the ministry going to go on? Who’s going to run it? Are you going to try and raise Keith from the dead? I mean, it was a lot to be fielding.

S: Oh man. Yeah. And you were fairly new to LDM right, because you’d just gone through the first ICT school in January, so you were there seven months, max.

T: Yes.

S: You were in the second term of ICT, which is just a polite way of saying you were a working volunteer, paying us for the privilege of your servanthood.

T: I was a working volunteer. But were kind of an elite class, I’m going to say that. We used to joke that LDM time was like Narnia time, because we worked so much…

S: Hadn’t heard that one!

T: Yeah, and so it was like a day in LDM was like five months out in the real world. You bonded very quickly and one of the things when they put me in charge of the tract department – it was like Narnia time, they gave me a golden sceptre and said you are now the maintenance machinery guru, and I’m like, uh, okay. It’s my job now to maintenance all the shrink wrap machine, the bun tying machine – have you ever done this? Nope.

[laughter]

T: But it was almost assumed that if God is calling you – I mean, it bled into even jobs as mundane as running equipment. If God is calling you to this position you have to receive his anointing to do it.

S: He will equip you! God will equip you.

T: He will equip you, and that is how I actually got some interaction with Don Burmeister, because I was kind of told, in typical Last Days double speak, of if you run into a problem you can ask Don Burmeister, but basically don’t bug him because he’s really important and has more important things on his mind. And he came across the field one day, seeking me out with a big smile and said I hear you’re in charge of the tract department; have you ever run a shrink wrap machine? I said no, and he said well come with me, let me show it to you.

S: Awww.

T: And just with the most generous spirit – and I remember him looking at me and saying do you sew? And I said yes, I do sew. And he said this is basically a glorified sewing machine; if you know how to oil a sewing machine, you’re going to be fine on this. He was just so amazing and walked me through everything I would need to do, and said if you EVER need me for anything don’t hesitate to call me. Then for a little stint I was also in charge of driving Josiah to his preschool in Van Texas. He was a sharp little cookie; I remember arguing with him on the way to school one day and stepping back, I’m arguing with a four-year-old; why am I arguing with a four year old?

S: He was like his daddy man, he was smart.

T: He was! And my nephew was born months apart from him, and I really missed my nephew so it was a special gift for me to hang out with him because I loved children and I loved that age. So, when it happened and immediately the jobs were dished out, it made complete logical sense to me that we second termers would be put on the phone, because we wanted to give the staff that had come with him from California and who were really bonded, the chance to have time to grieve. I think many of us were trying to step in and do any work that we could to ease the burden on you all who had just experienced a loss we couldn’t even put into words.

[guitar music playing]

T: Here are a few thoughts from others.

            When I was at Last Days in 1982 I was known as Liz Jefferies. I was 18 years old when the plane crashed, and I’ve kind of surprized myself here over 40 years ago it all happened, and I find myself quite emotional about it. That was a Wednesday, it was a fast day. That day we had had a prayer meeting, I remember in the ranch house, and I remember Keith was so excited because he pulled a piece of crumpled paper out of his pocket, and he read to us an article that he thought would be great for the newsletter. I believe it was by William Booth, and it was called How to Find God. That is one of my memories of that day.

            My name is Paul. I was relatively new to Last Days Ministries at the time of the crash. I had attended the second ICT school in April and was asked to stay on board to help lead the next school, and that’s when the crash occurred during that school. So I didn’t have a lot of direct contact with the ministry at large, though I did go to prayer meetings and things like that. I only had one, one-on-one conversation with Keith – and that was, as it turns out, the afternoon of the crash. He came up to me and asked me how the school was going; how I was doing. That’s something I won’t forget in that context, was my own conversation was that day, and he was gone a few hours later.

            My name is Linda and I was Keith and Melody’s nanny, living in their home for about a year and a half before the plane crash, caring for their children Josiah, Bethany and Rebecca. There was no Intensive Christian Training school when I joined Last Days so they were sending staff members to be students at ICT a little at a time, and it was my turn to go. So only a couple of days before the crash I left the Green’s home and went to stay at the ICT house.

At any rate, the plane crashed, it was obviously a big commotion of what is going on, people running and everything. I remember I was downstairs near the loading dock of the building and some other staff members had been outside near the runway, and somebody was completely tired out from rushing trying to get to the building and they hollered up to me, call Keith and tell him the plane went down. So I went right inside the building there, I just grabbed a wall phone, I called Keith’s house and Mel answered. I said Mel, is Keith there, and she said – I don’t know what she said, but I just said to her in a hurry, I said well tell Keith the plane went down. And she was like … what? And I said I don’t know, just tell Keith that the plane went down and that was the end of that conversation. Pretty soon then – I went outside of the building, and pretty soon here came Melody driving the lime wagon, her and Keith’s car. A lot of us were running down the runway, and Melody would stop and pick some of us up. We were in the car rushing, rushing down to the end, then we’d stop and get somebody else, and it became very apparent to a couple of us that we were not all going to fit in Mel’s car. Someone had the idea of going back and getting some horses, so a few of us went back and saddled some horses, but it didn’t make any difference. I was 18 and I remember my husband – I later married Matt Shoenfelder – he would have been 23 at the time, we were all such kids {sobs} – eventually I was at the crash site in this really dense part of the woods. There was just a huge area just charred; there was nothing but blackened earth and a blackened area surrounded by jungle, it felt like. The impression I have is I remember how many children’s flip flops were everywhere in the crash area. It’s very difficult.

            That evening we were leading small groups and I got a knock on the door, was pulled out and was told by Wayne that the plane had gone down, and that I needed to go get Dawn and bring her to Melody’s house. So I went up there and talked to Kathleen, let her know what was happening, so I took Dawn, put her in the van, and took her to Melody’s house. I believe I was instructed not to tell her what happened so I just was sitting next to her feeling oh my gosh, this poor young woman’s life is about to change in a very drastic way and I couldn’t say anything. I wanted to reach out and touch her – I want to say calm her, but that was fully against the rules back then. So I dropped her off at Melody’s and then I went back to the school house.

            We all were working back, just silent. Dumbfounded. Just a light summer rain started sprinkling over us. It was very gentle, we were walking down the runway back to the ministry – it was so surreal.

            When the news came of the plane crash, we the students at ICT were only told to pray, not that anyone had died. It took a while for them to reveal that to us.

            Later that evening, a number of the students and I were on the driveway of the school house which was closer to the crash site than any of the facilities on the ranch. We can see to the north, right where the crash site was, an incredible thunderstorm just hovering over the spot. Tremendous lightning, tremendous thunder, and it was just standing there. We were in awe. No words were spoken at that moment; a little later we just kind of agreed that boy was God mad. God was mad. This was not God’s will. This was not supposed to happen. That’s the way we processed that in that moment.

            But it was probably the first time in my life I felt the tangible grace of God, just like this blanket.

            Early the next morning the teacher who was there teaching at the school asked me to take him to the crash site. So we got in the van and we found our way to the plane and to the wreckage; there was nobody else there, it was just he and I. All he could say the whole time was Oh Jesus, oh Jesus. Oh Jesus, oh Jesus. So you’re in this incredible space geographically, spiritually, where there’s great tragedy and this sense of eternity. That’s what struck me personally the most. I was standing right up against the plane and looking directly down in it, and the sense that came to me in the energy of the moment was, I’m staring right into eternity. A few short hours ago all these people were alive, and now they’re not. So I’m looking in there and just saying my God, what happened here. Just this sense of loss.

            In the days that followed they kept us on our schedule of daily video teachings and chores to keep things normal. I had no updates as to what was going on. You see, when you are a staff member going through the ICT school the leaders felt it was important that you be separated from the regular ministry and staff and not shown any kind of favoritism over the other ICT students to make sure, I guess, that you were humble. So I was pretty much kept out of the loop as to what was happening with Melody and the LDM organization, and was unable to get together with other staff members to grieve. Because I had spent the last year and a half continually caring for and loving Josiah and Bethany there was a significant amount of grief I felt for those two little people that I loved. I was trying to process things the best I could by myself.

            When I drove over to one of the meeting where they were doing the communications about the next steps, what’s going to happen, I pulled in by myself in the van for the school, and in my rearview mirror I saw Martin and Wayne, two of the remaining elders up against the fence by one of the pastures, just hugging and crying. I remember saying, don’t do that. Don’t do that guys, come on. Don’t cry. It was such ache, such loss that everybody was feeling, no matter how much you knew any of them; there was just so much loss.

            I remember one night watching the news, and the local channel had done a piece on the crash. The camera panned in, zeroed in on one of Josiah’s sandals that had survived the crash, laying on the ground. I just – when I saw that it was really hard; I remembered how many times I had put that sandal on Josiah every day, and it really made me so sick and I cried a lot. I know it was hard for a lot of people. It would have been really helpful for me at the time if the leaders had made an exception to the norm and allowed me to meet with my friends on staff to process things, especially right after it had happened, as it was an extenuating circumstance, but it wasn’t allowed. So it was a very sad and confusing time, as it was for everybody who loved and knew them.

            It was especially hard for me with losing Don Burmeister, because he and Janet had just been a very precious – I looked up to them and especially Don was a father figure to me. He was a quiet gentleman and had such a beautiful family. Little did I know 20 years later I too would be a widow with two little boys, and Don’s wife came and ministered to me in Pennsylvania. Yeah – just ties that bind; love, and the things that we experience together.

 

 

S: I think I kind of just went into crisis-management mode.

T: Mmhmm.

S: I’m sure a good bit of dissociation – with my background I was quite good at that. So it was really focusing on the practical.

T: Yes, and I think so many of us were having to do that, because obviously the people that were most impacted, I think we were trying to make room for them. And us kind of pushing aside any grief that we might be feeling, so that we could do that. I remember watching you, that you really did go into work mode.

S: Mmhmm. Yep, I did.

T: I don’t remember, but I think some people have said that we then declared a fast on the heels of all this, so…

S: Oh my god. I don’t remember, but I wouldn’t doubt it at all.

T: Yes. I think it was because it was such an earth-shattering event – we didn’t know; was Last Days going to close its doors; what’s going to happen, so yes. Let’s take all these young, grieving people, and for many, this would be their first confrontation with death. Let’s make them fast and put them to work and see if they can pray and be holy enough to find out what God’s plan for us as a ministry would be.

S: Yeah, those hours, days, weeks and months that followed – some of it’s a blur. Some of it’s pretty clear. I will never forget taking the call from the coroner’s office. Not sure why it was me; again maybe I’m just going into crisis administrative mode.

T: I mean, you were good at that. I think we had said in another episode that children of alcoholics make good cult members, and I know I read somewhere else too, that people who have endured trauma – they’re great in crises. I know I went into that mode easily as well, but I was layers removed from some of the personal connections, and you being so personally connected still went into organizational mode – but when I look at it, who else would have? That was your skill set.

S: Yep. That was me. So I’m on the phone to the coroner’s office, who was reporting the official cause of death after the autopsies. I had just turned 21, and I felt so bad for Melody. I wasn’t sure what is the best thing to say. I remember going to her, hoping that the information would help ease her mind, that they did not suffer long – especially the children. I mean, what unthinkable, unthinkable tragedy. The coroner’s report was it was almost instant death because of inhaling the superheated air from the fuel tanks exploding and everything just being this giant fireball, so basically the inside of their lungs being scorched and from that, lack of oxygen would have been pretty much immediate unconsciousness.

T: Oh Sharon.

S: That was just awful.

T: That is. And that you were the one that had to break that news had to have been very, very, very tough.

S: Yep.

T: And in the midst of this the whole Christian world is trying to make sense of all of this confusion. For me it’s part of that – often referred to the doublespeak; the most exciting thing for a Christian is to stand before Jesus and yet this is the biggest grief that we’ve all experienced. How do you even properly grieve when at the same time there’s people telling you that’s all he wanted; that’s all Keith wanted was just to be with Jesus, and now he is with Jesus, and you’re seeing all of these children that didn’t get to live their life.

S: Mm. Mmhmm.

T: So maybe within a day or two the scripture starts to emerge in many corners: Unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies it remains alone, but if it dies it bears much fruit. John 12:24. And so all a sudden…

S: I just want to say this: that grain of wheat thing came up almost immediately and it is huge. It is huge. Can we talk about that more in detail towards the end of this episode?

T: Yes.

S: Okay. So Martin and I and Wayne and Kath – one of the big questions we had was should Last Days even continue? And then there was the leadership question: Keith’s gone – what’s our structure going to be? Cos it was the three male elders, and we all did believe women should not be in leadership. We looked to Leonard Ravenhill, we’re meeting with him, we’re praying with him – Leonard, give us counsel. But then YWAM – Youth With A Mission – gets involved. They’ve got their own agenda, and Tracey, that’s gotta be a whole other episode as well.

T: Yes, that does, and all I can think of is Miley Cyrus’ song YWAM came in like a wrecking ball. I obviously have some hindsight on this, but even at the time I remember there being a bit of emotional whiplash that I would later come to understand is pretty typical in these types of scenarios. It’s like whoa, whoa, whoa …

S: It’s the immediate pivot to this whole memorial concert tour, which the goal is we want to recruit 100,000 missionaries for YWAM. Basically, 100,000 paying missionaries to support this MLM structure. And yeah – it was off to the races with that pretty quick.

T: Yes, it was.

S: Okay, Tracey, we’re going to get ahead. That’s gotta be a whole other different discussion. Let’s kind of come back to this aspects of the crash. So the investigations and the rulings about the technical aspects – I’m not sure who received that info. I’m assuming it was Wayne and Martin and Melody. I don’t recall being part of those specific discussions, but it is possible.

T: That is interesting to me. I assumed you would be all involved in that.

S: Yeah, I just don’t remember. I don’t remember.

T: So the insurance wouldn’t pay – obviously there’s a whole deep dive into the case that went before the courts proving who was at fault, but to sum it all up, it was corporate negligence. The pilot in command was not properly certified, he didn’t have the proper hours, so we were held liable. This, from my perspective, was hazy because I guess I assumed that in any bad thing there’s usually always a lawsuit but I remember being pretty stunned that a Christian family, the Smalley family, though they were visiting I understood their parents to be Christians, that they would file a lawsuit against a Christian ministry because these bad things happen, but who sues?

S: Right, but remember even me in “leadership” – I did not know the extent of the violations, and the extent of the organization /(Keith Green) had in what took place.

T: None of us did. I remember having prayer and fasting meetings on Wednesday praying for this specific lawsuit and of course, our prayers were like, turn the heart of the judge; turn the heart of the people to stop this against God’s amazing people. I do remember being somewhat incensed that they would add this insult on top of everyone’s pain, and of course now I’m older and I look back and I think this family lost eight people. We will get into just all of the facts and details, but just to say – none of us at Last Days knew this. I assumed Sharon would have known this, but if she didn’t even know this, the rest of us were very clueless onto the details.

S: And I’m going to say again – remember, I could have been in on it. I might have just been dissociated and in a fog but it has struck me as new information that is a surprize to me. So my guess is I was not in the loop for some of those discussions.

T: Yeah, and I think it’s interesting that immediately, knowing Keith so well, you definitely felt that he was complicit, and I know that in our conversations you have mentioned some of that. So here, on our podcast, is there anything publicly that you would like to go on record as far as Keith’s complicity in this plane crash?

S: So we’ve definitely had some intense private discussions, and no one else is really going forward publicly that I know of, and saying these things, so I feel I need and want to. In a previous episode (I don’t remember which one it was), there was some brief reference to the crash. I said that the cause was arrogance and gravity, and I now also want to add two other things to that, especially after this kind of deep dive you and I have been doing, reviewing everything. I think we need to add ego indulgence, and gross negligence. That’s what contributed to this crash. So this new realization – part of me wants to say duh – as I’ve finally allowed myself to really think through all of this, is indulgence. Why did we need a private plane at all, let alone two? This money that’s spent to build a 3,500-foot air strip and to lease these planes, and to keep pilots and their families on staff – what is that but an indulgence? Okay, Keith wasn’t buying furs and jewellery and mansions so he’s not quite to the Righteous Gemstones level (by the way, great series, you gotta watch it) – but still like, what the fuck? We did not have the money to pay the staff, right? People aren’t getting paid wages for the 12 hours a day six days a week they’re working. We’re not even letting people have two glasses of orange juice at breakfast. Remember that? It’s limited, what you can eat.

T: It’s limited. Milk and orange juice – rationed. Bathrooms rationed. 10-12 to a bathroom. You weren’t allowed to flush the toilet.

S: Oh my god. I didn’t even think about that. Yeah, we don’t have the money to add another bathroom and septic system, but we can build an airstrip and we can build a giant hangar and we can lease these planes so okay, all this other stuff not being done because of funding, and yet we have the money for these airplanes.

T: I never thought about two, because I’m thinking okay, if you’re flying around a lot, but…

S: Two. And it’s not like it’s lifechanging in terms of the time saving. The drive to Dallas Forth Worth, it was less than two hours. Right now when I google it, it says from Garden Valley to DFW it’s an hour and a half. And this is before TSA right, so you’re just gonna walk on a plane – Dallas is this major hub with lots of non-stop flights, so it’s not like having this private plane is going to save 20 hours of travel every week. It’s not doing that, and even how much time it did “save”, which I’m doubtful – was Keith’s time really that valuable? I mean, back then it never occurred to me. I’m thinking all’s good, I didn’t think anything was about the money, but these were donations. Or, maybe it’s coming from his music royalties, I don’t know. But again I’m going to go back to we’re pretty much using slave labor volunteers – we can’t let people have two glasses of orange juice, but we’re gonna have these planes. So that’s where I say this was ego and indulgence.

T: Yeah. I don’t know if you remember – you probably never got assigned to this but when I came on, people had the job of having to go out and manually clear rocks from the runway. Literally bend over and pick up rocks to clear from the runway.

S: Oh my god. I do – now that you say it, I do remember that. Oh my god.

T: Yes. I didn’t have to do it – I remember one time being sent out and it was almost done so it wasn’t very long, but having to bend over. I remember thinking this is ridiculous that I’m clearing rocks off of a runway. And then immediately was checked – that great check in your spirit – oh that shows how much pride I have that I’m not willing to be out here in the Texas heat clearing rocks off a runway.

S: Ohh. Well, good for you for humbling yourself. Good for you for doing that.

[laughter]

S: Alright, so that’s like the whole indulgence aspect of this. Okay, next, for me…

T: Before we go on, do you remember being in leadership meetings where this was discussed about the need for an airplane or a hanger?

S: I don’t. I may have been in them, but I think I was kind of blinded. I had so much faith in Keith’s good intention and hearing from God and of course we’re not misusing God’s resources. I think I just was blind to it, to be honest.

T: Hmmm.

S: So, jumping to the next one, that is that new, really smack you in the face realization. The organizational and corporate gross negligence. So Keith is the top executive of this non-profit organization Last Days Ministries – he’s in charge of the entire operation, so the buck stopped with him. Everything at Last Days was under Keith’s full control and decision. Everything. Contracts; finances; operational processes; who’s going to work in what key positions; the schedule we kept – all of this was Keith’s control.

T: Yes, it was Keith’s control, and I have to just share this little memory – we might be cutting it out, but do you remember when Art Katz came to visit? People can google Art Katz, but I remember him teaching in the ranch house and Keith was off to the side. Art Katz chastized him for making us work so long, and Keith did that little grin of like, kind of the shrug of the shoulders. So he absolutely knew our schedules, he absolutely (I think) had been challenged by other ministry leaders and still we worked very long hours.

S: Yes we did. And again – okay, he’s the head executive of this non-profit organization. He did not ensure we complied with regulatory and insurance requirements for those planes. So, the pilot training and the certifications – and remember, Keith is the one who tells Don to make this flight, this tragic flight. I’m not even talking about civil liability or criminal liability, I don’t even know if there was such a thing, for the deaths of all these people, but the value of the plane itself wasn’t covered by insurance, because of non-compliance. Because of gross negligence. The FAA – their actual statement was company management did not comply with insurance stipulations, which required pilot of the flight to attend a Cessna flight training school, nor did the pilot satisfy the minimum hour requirements. And I’m gonna tell you, Keith was a contract guy. He would read every single word of a contract, he knew them inside and out, so he either negligently signed off on things without reading them – that is negligence, or he read them and he knew and he just didn’t fucking give a shit enough to comply, because other things were too important.

T: Yes, and it goes along if he is a risk taker – if he genuinely was uh, what do these people know, my pilots are good, I don’t have to comply with these silly rules. I could totally see him going from that angle.

S: Yep. So anyway, gross negligence – that rested totally on Keith’s shoulders. So the next one: this one to me, is the most subtle, and the most sinister. And that is this spiritual arrogance and spiritual abuse. The leadership structure at Last Days and more importantly, Keith’s own leadership style and choices; he was spiritually a very controlling person, and sometimes abusive. I’ve told you – I’ve seen him be kind of a bully. I’ve seen him mock and make fun of people. There were times he could just be – you couldn’t describe him as anything other than just being a dick. And remember, I loved Keith.

T: So Sharon, that message does not sit well with a lot of people. It just doesn’t. When you say the word bully, people are like well, he was just a human.

S: Yeah, no – fine. Well, you weren’t close enough to him to see it. What can I say. I saw it. I saw it. I was the one who – you know what, let’s just leave it at that. We’re just going to have to leave it at that, because people who want to idolize someone; who want to assume that anything negative about them can’t possibly be true – there’s nothing you can do about that. They’re going to want to believe what they want to believe. And that’s fine. But you know, what really makes me sad is how quickly people would definitely believe and label Don a people pleaser. Right? Because that was one of the things that was said – well you know, maybe Don was just weak, because he just was a people pleaser. And that is a slam, in Christian narrative – for those who aren’t Christian, that idea is a horrible, horrible thing, to be a people pleaser. That just shows weakness of character and yielding to sin and not trusting God. Well, the truth is, Don wanted to please God. That’s why he joined LDM. I saw this video analysis – and Tracey, you just shared this with me recently – there’s this website flightsafetydetectives.com, it’s these three experts, and combined they’ve got over 100 years of aviation accident investigation, and safety experience. One of the things that they said in this video, looking at the crash that killed Keith. What they said hit me like a ton of bricks. “You have to shake your head, because where’s the logic? Who in their right mind, as an aviator, especially someone that was as structured and disciplined as a military aviator, would just throw the rule book right out the window and go oh yeah, let’s just stuff all these people in this airplane, even if they can’t sit in a seat. Let’s just kick the tires, light the fires, and go.”

T: That hit me like a ton of bricks, too.

S: Yeah. And I’m going to follow on that in just a second, but another thing they said is, “You see a tragic accident like this, where eight kids were killed because of one human and his stupidity.” Here’s the thing. Don was not in his right mind. He was being manipulated by a cult leader. And it was the not the stupidity of one human; it was two. And the question remains, which one wore greater culpability? Don, or Keith?

T: Hoo, Sharon.

S: I know. I know. So, hear me out. Keith and Last Days – there was this culture of submission to leaders. Not questioning, trusting in God to lead through the leaders, right? Lots of bible studies about this; we were subjected to lots of bible studies about this.

T: Yes.

S: And these extreme teachings at Last Days about this submission to leadership – these were just another foundation stone in manipulative control. Now, there’s a lot out there in the public space these days about high control groups, and they don’t have to be religious. The documentaries on the NXIVM organization on HBO, there’s the docuseries The Vow, there was one on – what was the other one Tracey, was it Netflix?

T: Yes, and I can’t think of the name.

S: Yeah, so anyway, we’ll find it and put it in the show notes. An example of the high control, charismatic leader who can get people to do things they never would otherwise do. Do things that no one in their right mind would do. That was secular. Add – in this situation – add someone’s belief in a God and that they want to do nothing more than please God, and the belief that God has set this leader over them, and the leader reinforcing the idea that the leader is speaking for God. That is a very dangerous, and in this case, a deadly combination. So, spiritual coercion was absolutely a fact of life at Last Days Ministries.

T: Yes it was. And that would be just to even your normal leaders, but then you factor in Keith’s intense coercive personality on top of that, and you have a very difficult situation where you would try to come against him.

S: Yep.

T: Ohh Sharon, that’s so heavy, and it’s so well stated, because people will say well why are you doing this, and this is exactly why we’re doing this. When you look at the facts of the case, this is the deadly combination that, in this case, absolutely cost people their lives.

S: It did.

T: And in other spaces it is costing people their psyche, their self-esteem, and we are doing our best to bring this out into the light. Again, from the beginning, we are not trying to drag people through the mud; we’re trying to drag it out into the light so that people can avoid this combination in the future.

S: Yep. And again, remember, part of this for me is, I hate it, the way Don has been portrayed publicly as just a people pleaser. I want to be clear though; I mean, Don was the pilot. He made the absolutely wrong choice to put too many people in that plane. There is no justification, there is no way around it. He blew it, and as I watched those YouTube videos about the crash, I just got angrier and angrier for Don’s reputation. It’s just awful. It just is awful. And I think Tracey, about the burden – the psychological and emotional burden that went on to Janet, and to their sons, right? I’m sure you remember this, too. I remember the prayer meetings. I remember the prayer meetings that we were all in, and they are there. And they were struggling with this horrible shame, which may have been completely false. False shame and guilt, at the idea that their husband, their father was responsible for killing the one and only Keith Green. When in fact, it may have been more the other way around. It’s just awful. It’s just awful.

T: It is awful. And that is one of the big purposes of the NTSB examining flight crashes for that purpose. There’s a lot on record when you have high profile people who put pressure on pilots to do things that they wouldn’t normally do, and we know that happens. There’s been some recent crashes where that has happened, where people were flying in fog, or people were flying in bad weather conditions because a very important person needs to get somewhere, but adding the cult element as far as the conditioning of obeying your leaders, hearing from God that you can do all things through Christ, and that this leader is putting that on you, is a whole different element that there aren’t a lot of studies on, because it doesn’t usually come into play. And that is definitely a sobering look at what happened on that day in July.

S: Mmhmm.

T: And I do know that there was a struggle with some guilt from the pilot’s wife. I didn’t quite understand it at the time because in my head, it was bad things happen, and understanding that they bore that weight, because the report clearly states pilot in command, multiple times. When you read the report, it’s pilot in command, pilot in command, pilot in command. That’s where all of the fault lies, and I think that’s really hard to be in a ministry where you were married to that pilot, and ultimately had to be a part of the ministry for years where we are trying to bring the tale forward that this is used by God for his glory.

S: This is what infuriates me now. I remember – I remember being in these prayer meetings on the floor in the ranch house, on the red carpet, and I remember those two little boys praying out loud for God somehow to use this for his glory; to use Keith’s death for the glory of the kingdom, while they are still bearing the grief of their own father. It’s just sickening. It just infuriates me now, and I’ve always believed that they deserved to be validated, and that the memory of their father needed to be restored to the honor he deserves in their eyes, and you know Tracey, I’m going to say this. I am certain, to the point that if my own kids lives literally depended on my correct assessment of this…

T: Wow.

S: I am certain that Don would have tried to tell Keith, no Keith, this is too many people. And Keith would have done some sort of joke-like little shaming thing, a little emotional arm-twisting, and pulled the card don’t you trust God and the leadership he’s put over you? Some version of that. Some version of that is what I believed happened. And on the one hand again – absolutely no excuse for Don as a pilot, none whatsoever; and on the other hand, recent documentaries and all this information about cult situations have validated that the manipulation and mind control can become virtually impossible to resist. I know how Keith did this kind of stuff. I saw it firsthand repeatedly; I fell prey to it myself, and it’s not that I think Keith had bad intent to purposefully harm anyone – of course not. Of course not. But he was self-absorbed, he was self-righteous, he was self-serving, and the damage to others was just a by-product.

T: Huh yeah, that is a lot to take in, especially when you follow the story from that day even till now, and that brings us back to that unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies. So Sharon, let’s dissect this and find out why we think that was able to spin up with such power and why we needed to paint that picture?

S: Well, I mean, the first one is just absolutely the humanness of it all. Of needing comfort; of needing to make some sort of sense in the face of unspeakable tragedy, right? I mean, that‘s just human nature. Everyone needs that. So I think that was part of the spiritualizing and the justifying, but the questions that were being wrestled with were, was this the work of the devil? Was this God’s choice? Was this man’s accident? It wasn’t nature like a thunderstorm. I think Christians today who still have a belief in whatever their doctrines are and still honor Keith, I wonder what do they do with this? How do they explain this thing?

T: It’s interesting; we mentioned at the top of the show about the sub that went down, and there’s no spiritualizing that, right? It’s very clear. People are coming out and saying hubris drove this, and that was not the case in this story, and it’s still not the case. Like I said, you have some people – this is where you get all that bible gymnastics and all that theological gymnastics, because clearly God allowed it to happen…

S: Right.

T: So where people tended to lean in circles that I travelled with was that scripture. What the devil intends for evil, God will come in and use for good.

S: Which scripture is that?

T: That’s in Genesis 50:20. That is something that became almost like a mantra to all of us in many areas of our life, right. Any time something bad happens – well, you know, the devil meant it for evil, but God can turn everything into good. So that immediately became the narrative of this, and obviously tons of grief, very sad, left two little boys orphans; left Melody pregnant with a very young child; wiped out an entire family, that doesn’t get enough acknowledgement, I will say. In researching this I found the website honoring Dede Smalley and her children. At the time this happened I didn’t have any children, and now from where I sit as a mother of five children, that loss to that family is insulting to me to sweep over with the devil meant it for evil, but God meant it for good, because Keith Green’s life was so important.

S: Right. Yeah of course. He was so much more important because it’s this kingdom of everything is for this kingdom of God. You know, one of the Christian mantras that drives me crazy is God is in control. God is in control. Okay, if that’s true, if God is in control, then did God do this? Or did God specifically decide to allow it? And if it’s for the greater good – so if God wanted to take Keith, right, because the mission of the kingdom of God could be better served because Keith was dead, because then that message could be used – let’s just say okay to that for a moment. Why kill children? Surely an all-powerful, all-knowing God could have done it differently if it’s that Keith Green needed to die.

T: Correct.

S: Kill him, but don’t fucking kill these kids. I mean, that just makes no sense at all. None.

T: No, it doesn’t. And it is insulting to everybody else who died in that plane because they were overshadowed. Their lives were overshadowed, the grief of their loved ones was overshadowed because they were all – what, just passengers in this bigger plan of God to catapult Keith Green to global status as a martyr?

S: Arrrgh.

T: That makes me angry.

S: Well, this is where again we can’t really go into it, but mention the whole YWAM thing.

T: Yeah. So I mean, we do have to go into it to a certain degree, because on the heels of everyone’s wrestling with whatever theology you were trying to come to grips with, YWAM supported the message of unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and this was the catalyst to start the memorial concert tours that the stated goal was to raise as many missionaries as could be done. I think at the outset they wanted to raise 100,000 missionaries through Keith’s death.

S: And just to be clear, these are young people who are going to pay their own way. They’re going to pay money in the form of tuition to attend Discipleship Training Schools, and then they’re going to have to raise their own support and pay money to the bases around the world of YWAM, and there’s a kick up portion of that, and I just don’t even want to – ugh, oh my god. Yeah, another episode. So back to this thing of why it needs to be spun this way, for Keith. What’s at stake here? If Keith can continue to be seen as this giant of the faith and like you said, almost a martyr for Jesus, rather than someone through his own arrogance and negligence, killed himself and others – if he can be seen in the hero’s light well, then his products remain more financially viable.

T: Yes.

S: His albums, his writings – all of that. The memorial concerts can be used to recruit more for YWAM. Melody will definitely have a much more sympathetic victim status, right? She’s the widow of a martyr, so kind of similar to the Elisabeth Elliot/Jim Elliot saga which people can look that up. However, if the ultimate fault for the crash is laid primarily at Keith’s feet, now what you’re facing is an irresponsible executive who is not in compliance with contracts, not following the laws, taking a joyride to show off, spiritually bullying and pulling a power trip over the pilot, killing not only himself but two of his children, six other children, and three other adults. So to me, it sums up indulgence, negligence, arrogance, and gravity. These truths about the crash – they haven’t been told. It’s been glossed over for the sake of reputation and ambition, and spiritual fairytales.

T: It has been. When you have someone achieve martyr status for what you just said – a joyride – and I think one of the crash reports where you referenced the 100 years of aviation experience; they pulled that one out as well. This wasn’t even a necessary flight. This was a joyride to show off the ministry to a visiting family. This had no preparation; this wasn’t in service of taking the gospel into the four corners of the earth, and yet the tale that has spun up from this is as though he was doing a life and death mission.

S: Yep. And the relevance. I want to pull it back to the relevance. These same attributes of indulgence and arrogance – these are rampant in evangelical and fundamentalist circles. They’re just everywhere. People need to be able to open their eyes and not be afraid to question, because sooner or later that arrogance and indulgence; it gets other people badly hurt. Sometimes it even kills them.