This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 008 – Virgins and Volcanos – Purity Culture Part 4

June 7, 2023

T: Hey, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon. And this is our podcast.

T: Feet of Clay – Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: Excellent Traceeeeey – and you know guys, we failed. We failed you last time. We thought we were going to get to the end of this whole topic, Virgins and Volcanos done in part 3 – nah, we kept talking and talking and talking, so we had to cut it off there and now this is the beginning of part 4. So we’re going to pick it up where we left off.

T: Yes, because our volcano runneth over.

S: Yes. It did. Yes, it did. Okay, since this is the fourth time around I shouldn’t have to do this whole drill again, but I’m gonna do it and I’m gonna fast talk it. We’re gonna talk about sex, some of it’s gonna be explicit. If you’ve got children nearby you don’t want to listen to this while they’re around. If you are our children – yeah, you can make your decision on your own.

T: Yes, because we’re gonna be the grannies to your kids, and you may not want to see us this way.

(laughter)

S: Maybe not. Alright folks, we’re picking up where we left off. Enjoy!

…

S: Let’s go ahead and move to that tipping point – the end phase. Right?

T: Yes.

S: I’ll go first again. Age and beauty go first.

T: Oooh nicely done.

S: Alright, the end of my marriage, that third stage, and that pain point – in the midst of all this pain, it was probably in the late 90s – I began to question the bible. I began to question the story of fundamental Christianity and other things. That will be a whole different episode, I know that. Having a lot of trouble and a lot of unhappiness in the marriage, I finally found a secular therapist. We had years before done the bible therapist thing, which put a band aid on it but didn’t fix it. This was a very competent, qualified pre-eminent marriage counsellor, and I saw this as the last chance I had to try to save this marriage. I felt really guilty, I thought I’m the one who’s changed. I’m the one who’s questioning my beliefs. I’m the one who’s thinking this whole submission thing doesn’t feel good anymore. I can summarize it by saying the pain just got so intense that it finally made me seriously consider divorce. How about you? How about your third part?

T: Well, we continued on that pathway where we were doing our scheduled time together. The kids were all getting older, they were starting to say things, verbalizing some of the way I felt inside, they were feeling as well, from him. And that was getting me thinking, but I would say one of the big turning points where I was really starting to put words to some of the thoughts I was having was when he took the kids to Teen Mania.

(laughter)

T: This took him away for maybe ten days, I don’t know. I was alone with the younger kids, and I loved it. I just loved it. I loved the freedom, there was something very palpable that was missing, this sense of control, the sense of being under the magnifying glass, the sense of having to do these duties. So much so, there was another friend of ours who also was at Last Days who’d come over one evening to watch a show; I got enough nerve to verbalize that to her. She was very understanding and very comforting about that, but I began to think what if he dies in a car accident on his way back. How would I feel about that? Because marriage is until death do you part, and I can’t walk away from God, and I know he’s not going to walk away from God, so how do we get out of this. I was aware enough to go that’s a screwed up conclusion, that I would want death more than divorce, so that started me down that journey of okay, what about this divorce, why am I so unhappy, why is my mental health going there that I just want out so badly that I’m either willing to volunteer to die, or I’m willing for my ex to volunteer to die.

S: Right. When it comes to my part on the parting, I had those thoughts of death as well. But continue.

T: So, one of the things that will be in more detail when we get into some of the elements of marriage that are beyond just the sexual element, was money. We had a lot of money struggles and a lot of tension. His focus was on money. I got a job outside the home so that I could help my kids do the extra-curricular activities that we just didn’t have. Crazy that in this mindset I ended up getting up getting a job as a beer wench.

(laughter)

T: Left field, guys. Left field.

S: Wait, wait. What kind of establishment has an opening for a job description, beer wench?

T: Ohh, so in Lancaster Pennsylvania there’s the Pennsylvania Renaissance fair that was five minutes from our house. It was super convenient, it allowed me to work on the weekends so I could be home home-schooling the kids through the week. it was a start up company, it was during the daylight of the weekend, so I definitely had to pray and like, what is this, I’m going to be serving beer, is that sinful – thank God for scriptures that come to you. Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. I can absolutely do this and make the money that we need, it’s five minutes, so I started…

S: Wait, didn’t you want to quote Ben Franklin – beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

T: That was a teacher at our Renaissance fair and a very, very loved quote. But all of a sudden, I am being treated in a way that I’ve never been treated before. Catholic girl, go to Last Days, in this commune setting, in a home church setting, I’m pretty secluded at home and so now I’m in a group of (in costume, because I love a good costume), and the men were so demonstratively friendly and acting as though I was very appealing. I’m telling you Sharon, that rocked my world. I had never felt that.

S: I had a similar situation. I mean, I wasn’t a beer wench, I wasn’t wearing a costume, but in business endeavours at trade shows and other things, I would talk with other business owners. The majority of them were men, and for me where it all started was like, they were complimentary of what I had done with my company, and how I had built it and how I was managing it. That affirmation, just on that aspect of me, was totally different than what I was receiving in my marriage. I was constantly being told that I wasn’t making good decisions, and that I didn’t bring home enough money – that’s a whole other thing we’ll get into another time, but also just the friendliness and the mild flirtation. I remember feeling afraid about how it made me feel, and I remember coming home at one point – this would have been years before, in the early 90s – and saying hey, these men are nice to me, and I’m afraid of how it makes me feel and I think we need to go see a counsellor, can we go talk to our pastor, and being told this is your problem. You’re sinful, this is your problem, no we are not going to talk to anyone. But I can relate to that, all of a sudden a feeling that I have never in my entire life felt.

T: No, and obviously there’s circumstances where people mistreat you or are disrespectful, but this was all in good fun. Genuinely good fun. My boss at the time was also very complimentary – oh my god you can do this, oh my god look how good you do that – it was like I had fallen into another planet. I was like – what? I’m so used to the microscope being – or feeling that feedback of my house is always messy, I don’t do this enough – that same thing you were talking about. I’m just not enough. I’m never enough. And now I’m in this environment where it’s not that you’re enough; they’re going out of their way to be complimentary. Still, I think I actually talked to you about it one time, and you were like you’ve gotta guard your heart, Tracey. Gotta guard your heart. Because I was also afraid of – I see now how affairs happen, because I’m starting to like to go to work and see these people, and they’re making me feel good, so I did start opening up conversations as well with my ex – and isn’t it interesting, we’ll get into it in more detail because it’s not this cut and dried and simple, but he also didn’t think we had a need to go to counselling. We just needed to know how to pray and trust God – which we did already. I would say no two people, besides my ex and I, tried to have the flesh put on these old bones.

S: I believe you.

T: And it wasn’t working.

S: No, it wasn’t working.

T: I don’t know what the fear of the counselling is, or the taboo or the stigma, but it also became a no-go because I think there was part of that teaching we’d been under for so long of these secular people don’t have the answers to life. The only ones that have the answer to life is God and Jesus so if we don’t have the answers, we’re not plugged in the right way.

S: That’s right. It’s the bible. The answer to everything we need to know is right there in the bible.

T: And we’re at fault. We’re not appropriating his grace enough; there’s something that’s blocking our heart, so no counsellor is going to have the formula for us.

S: You know what though, Tracey? I’m gonna say it – it’s just bullshit. Because it’s basically pride, which is the opposite of the ideals we held to of humility and yeah – they both just didn’t want to be humble. So yeah, that’s what it was.

T: Yep. That is what it was. And then a lot of stuff layered on top of that, but there came a point for me to have to unpack what does that mean if I get a divorce. Before I even came to that point, working outside the home and among an array of very colorfully different characters, I saw qualities in people that were way healthier, were way more lifegiving, were way more freeing than the group of Christians that were in our home group. And it was stark to me.

S: A-men. AMEN!

T: It’s like this is a group of unhealthy people. This one group of our church home group is so unhealthy, really deep-seated problems, and this other group is just so life giving, and in that group of actors and theatre people that are drawn to it, homosexuals, that were some of the most compassionate, loving people I’ve met. That’s where it was like – wait, these two things can’t be true.

S: It’s this cognitive dissonance.

T: Totally.

S: I experienced the same thing. It’s like I’m meeting people that are not Christian, but these are good people. They have great morals. They’re kind, they’re ethical, and yet the Christians I know who are critical and mean and duplicitous and all this other stuff and I’m like whoa, this just doesn’t make sense. So you know what, we’re kind of tiptoeing towards our deconstruction.

T: Yes.

S: We need to circle back. Remember, you’re the one who’s supposed to be corralling me. So yeah.

T: So again to our listeners, there’s so many things that get layered in when you make a decision to depart a marriage, so we will do our due diligence to get into it and talk about all those details, but as far as the thread of the sexuality, I was beginning to experience this awakening inside of me that most people do in their teens.

S: Mmmhmm.

T: Because we had been so stunted, and so brainwashed, and so indoctrinated, I was (for the first time) feeling these feelings that I’d never had to feel.

S: You’re in your 30s, right?

T: In my 30s.

S: Me too.

T: I would say it was closer to my late 30s because the parting didn’t happen until the beginning of my 40s, because I really tried to see if we could repair some things. It was just – you know when we talk about being born again, it is that level. It’s that level of an awakening. It’s that level of a veil being lifted off; it’s that level of seeing the whole world in a different place.

S: Yes. Yes it is. Alright, so that’s when you started thinking about the possibility of divorce.

T: Correct.

S: Alright. Well then, that brings us to the parting.

T: That brings us to the parting.

S: I know we’re going to do a deep dive into the topic of divorce down the road, but there’s a few highlight things I feel I really need to say about this, and what this decision and experience meant for me. First of all, I was terrified of getting a divorce. First of all, I was convinced that if I got a divorce, I would go to hell. And way worse, I was even more terrified that the example I would set would cause my children to not believe and cause them to go to hell. I mean, this was a real thing for me. Going back to that lovely, lovely organization that we were part of, Last Days Ministries, I’m gonna pull out two quotes from the article, the tract that was written by Keith Green that we mailed out by the tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands. The title is Everything You Should Know Before You Get A Divorce. So first quote: We know that God clearly said I hate divorce. Malachi 2:16. And so we want to reach you before you make that fatal mistake. That is the best time to deal with sin, before it occurs. End quote. Notice the emphasis on fatal mistake and sin. Second quote: You wouldn’t consider murdering your own child if he was uncontrollable, would you? You would try to work it all out. Oh things would be trying and difficult and you might lose your temper, but you would never consider killing him. That’s exactly what divorce is. The murder of a marriage and a family, and talking divorce is talking murder. Thinking divorce is thinking murder. That’s the only way to consider it. End quote.

T: Wow.

S: Note the comparison with murder – and this is written by Keith Green. Several things about this really, really piss me off. This article is still available today on the Last Days Ministries website run by Melody Green. Melody herself had a hush-hush divorce. Her second marriage lasted about eight years. It was announced in the beginning with this we’ve prayed and we’ve sought all this counsel and the YWAM leadership and we know this is God and – all this fanfare of how this is God’s will, and when it didn’t work out… Look, everybody’s pain is everybody’s pain, I’m not trying to say anything other than the fact is, she divorced. And it stays almost totally hidden from public view while she still promotes this damning message to the world, and makes money of it! And that pisses me off. It is nothing short of total hypocrisy, and I do admit – I hate hypocrisy.

T: (laughing) Yes, you do. I mean, that was actually the flavor of Last Days Ministries, right? We did hate hypocrisy – that was part of the Jesus message to the Pharisees that we all did identify with and cling to. So to this day that is also something for me; we all have feet of clay. We all have these character flaws, but please don’t stand on a soapbox and point them out in everybody else when the other fingers are pointing back at yourself.

S: Amen sister, amen. Anyway my belief in the sinfulness of divorce was so strong that I actually thought suicide would be a better choice. I thought okay, I need to make it look like an accident, so I would look at a bridge, the James River in Richmond Virginia, I’m like, how fast would I have to go on the Powhite Parkway to get through the guardrail here, or big giant trees on a curve; how fast would I have to go because if it was an accident, it would be less painful for my kids. And I believed if I commit suicide I’m still going to go to hell for killing myself, but if I divorced I run the risk of leading my kids to hell, and that was the most horrifying thought of all.

T: Ugh. And now it’s my turn to say Sharon, I am so sorry you had to go through this. When I look at the levels of mental health issues that this creates – this creates, because you are not one that had suicide ideation before, it’s these belief systems that get so entrenched that they create the self-hatred, the self-rejection, the sense of failure – to the point that we’re giving up on the very idea of life. Uh uh uh. So sorry.

S: Yeah. Heavy shit. Heavy shit. Anyway, it took years and a really great therapist for me to fully recognize just how unhealthy my marriage was, and more time to accept that it just was not fixable, and to finally find the courage to leave. We’d already been separated in the home, because I had moved into the guest bedroom. I probably lived in the guest bedroom for maybe a year and a half. I really did my best to never fight in front of the kids. Actually, we hardly ever fought. We really didn’t fight. It was very quiet and I was very subdued. In retrospect, this meant that the younger three kids – they were like junior high, high school, I think they were totally blindsided with the divorce.

T: Mmm. I can see that.

S: Whereas my older kids, the college age ones, I can’t remember which one but one of the two told me later they wondered why I had stayed in the marriage and hadn’t divorced sooner. So the divorce itself took, I dunno, between two or three years because he just wasn’t cooperative. For him, like for your husband, it’s this idea of we’re married for life, so he’s trying to be obedient to God. His pain was very, very real. He had bought into these promises of God, and I believe he did try his best to be a Christian husband, according to his interpretation of the bible – which I think there’s a whole lot of screwed up-ness in that. I don’t think he was going to be as humble and willing to look at himself as he could have been, but you know – it was hard. And there had been breeches of fidelity on both our parts. As far as I can tell, he remains fully entrenched in that belief system today. So we had been married in April of 1981, the separation started in our shared home in maybe 2003, the divorce wasn’t final until the fall of 2006, so 25 years. 25 years of legal marriage.

T: Wow. 25 years, and that is a lifetime. My story is so similar to that, and we will get into all of the other layers of what gets you to this point. I used to often say to people you don’t unwind a marriage with this many kids that we have that took 20-25 years easily. That’s a whole other episode in and of itself of just the time that it takes. And there is a lot of pain. We’re supposed to be past the pain into the parting, but the other thing I would often say is divorce is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. And knowing that it’s coming to the spouses that we had who do definitely still believe that divorce is one of their greatest failings. The stuff that you read from Keith’s article is pretty staggering, because now you know where that cements into our brain. Who wants to be a murderer? We’re being accused of murdering a marriage and a family, and I was also up against that. My spouse and I were trying to talk through things, trying to do some things that would save the relationship. At one point I looked at him upstairs in our bedroom as we were having all kinds of deep conversations and I said, do you think that because of what I believe now – I was challenging some of the veracity of the bible  and really proud of myself for thinking through some deep topics that we hadn’t thought through. So I looked at him and said well, do you think that because of these beliefs that I’m now starting to have, that I’m an open door to bring in the devil to our household? And he looked at me and he goes, I can’t think otherwise.

S: Wow.

T: I knew it before I asked it though, because I’m cut from that same belief system. But I was hoping that some of the conversations we were having were challenging him to think differently. So I just put my eyes down and said well, that’s not going to work for me. And he then said well, I’m not leaving you. God has called me to this marriage and it doesn’t matter how unhappy I am or will be, I’m not leaving this marriage. I was broken-hearted again, because it’s not I love you, I can’t lose you, I can’t be without you – let’s do what we can to save this, you’re the light of my life – it was again, digging in. this is what God has told me to do and I’m gonna die before I give up what God is calling me to do.

S: I’m going to pick up my cross and carry my wife!

T: And I was done being the cross. I was done being the reason why he had to give up his life for Jesus, to the point of what you’re coming into, of how we got the courage to make that step, and at this point I was courageous enough to say well, I’m going to make it easy for you; I will be the one that files for divorce. He didn’t beg me to not, he didn’t try to talk me out of it, he accepted it and he leaned on the scripture if an unbelieving wife wants to depart, let her depart. That was it, as far as the conversation to save our marriage, and then the absolute unwinding of all the logistical stuff. I often think back to that, because I have worn the scarlet letter as the one who’s the unbeliever, and the one who departed, but he wanted it as much as I wanted it, but his belief system wouldn’t allow him to go there.

S: Yep. Wow. Hey, you know, all the divorces we’ve heard of from the folks that got married at Last Days, do you think the percentages are worse or about the same as the overall US average, or even the Christian average?

T: I do think they’re worse, and I’m taking that from the post LDM couples that moved into our area. 80% of those couples ended up divorcing. I tried to do some math on all the ones that became couples at Last Days and I think the national average is 40 or 50%?

S: Yeah, I think it’s 50 for national.

T: Yep, so I would say we are higher. I think we’re in the 60% and the ones that are close friends of mine that didn’t go through a divorce, from my observation they are struggling with some of the things we struggled with, but they are still believing that that is their calling, which is to lay down their lives for the sake of staying married.

S: Mmmhmm. Well, I also know that many of those who have remained married; we know firsthand there are some pretty horrific levels of control and abuse and unhealthiness in quite a number of those marriages. And that’s very sad. And I know there are some that are very happy.

T: Yep!

S: I think those might have been some that have been ones that came out of genuine mutual attraction versus this idea of this is all about serving the kingdom of God. I think those are the healthy ones.

T: Yes. And I think – you know, in other cultures there’s been arranged marriages throughout time, and I used to often kind of meditate on that. And I do think you can grow into love, and I think I know some couples that came out of some of the teachings we came out of, but they genuinely were humble and changed, and grew to love and appreciate, and kind of got in touch with their humanity to the best they could, and I think have some really good marriages, which is great. But for whatever reason, we were either too extreme, the pushing down of our humanity infected our marriage to such a level it was not salvageable.

S: Right. Right. Is there anything else you want to talk about on this before we jump into the next part?

T: No, we will have ample time to go into some of the other stories of that but I think it just is very sobering when you think of the message that it’s better you live unhappy and bound up than to divorce; that divorce is at that level to cause so much mental health issues I think is staggeringly sad. So I’m hoping if you’re out there and you’re in this situation, or have been in this situation, that you can also get free, because it is a death sentence.

S: Yep. Death of the soul, if not the body. Yep. Alright. I would love to say that I can actually sing and I can’t, but [singing] IIII’m coming out so you better get this party started…

(laughter)

S: It’s not coming out, it’s coming up, but I’d rather say coming out. Because that’s what we did – we came out.

T: It is! We came out.

S: So, let’s talk about the after party, sister.

T&S: The after party!

T: So, as much courage as it takes to actually form the words divorce and take the step towards divorce, I think the first step in having sex outside of that marriage was also a very big, courageous step.

S: Yes!

T: So do you want me to start and talk about mine?

S: Yes.

T: So this is back in the days when online dating was just starting, and there was great online service through a New York Greenwich Village paper that was pretty trendy and cool, and a lot of intellectuals. I made contact with somebody that I was going to meet in the town of Philadelphia, which was about an hour and a half away from where we lived. To back up a little bit, back in the day during my marriage, remember those papers that would have the ads in the back of the paper, looking for a tall, sexy – they’re basically wanted ads.

S: Oh, personals.

T: Personals, yes. I used to read those…

S: Really!

T: Uh huh.

S: Did you read and fantasize? Did you wonder?

T: I did. I didn’t fully fantasize about all the sexual part, but I remember with my brother in law – he had ended up being free for a period of time when he was free to date, and we confessed to each other that we both liked to read those, and it would be so fun just to go out and meet these people, because there was definitely a part of me that was ready to break free – I hadn’t ever dated. What would dating be like? So I answered this ad for an artist who was going to meet me on the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum. It was all very fantasy driven, just handcrafted for me. Seriously, I couldn’t have handcrafted this better. I had my friends at the Brew pub where I was still working, and they were like – you’ve got to give us your phone number, you’ve got to tell us exactly – you’re going to go get murdered. They just had all these terrible stories. And they just didn’t phase me – nope, I’m going, I’m going to meet this guy. It was during the Salvador Dali art exhibit in the Philadelphia Art Museum.

S: Oh cool!

T: So the whole steps of the art museum had Salvador Dali’s face. He had messaged me, I want to meet you on the eye of Dali on my moped – it’s so ridiculous.

(laughter)

T: So I drive in; of course, I’m still driving a mini van…

S: The sex mobile!

T: The sex mobile! I rock up and sure enough he comes along, and he’s tall, and he’s bronzed and extraordinarily fit, and sexy as hell. I mean, immediately my body was jumping. I hadn’t ever had that before. I get on the back and we go driving…

S: Tracey…

T: Yes?

S: Tracey – I gotta tell you right now, you’re describing this and I’m getting a little thrill and rush in my body.

(laughter)

S: But I’m gonna confess, because I’m also thinking about my honey man at the moment, and I’m remembering seeing his body for the first time, and yeah – yeah.

T: For those listeners, I do know her current husband. Very similar; very tall, and bronzed, and very fit. Very attractive. All of this – this is my first experience, and I’m all in. I don’t feel guilt, I don’t feel shame – I’m doing this. I’m all in. I feel free. It just felt so good to feel all the things I thought I should be feeling all along, and I was, so then we went out to dinner at this nice Italian restaurant. I think it was a BYO so he had the wine, and then he leaned in to kiss me. This is my first kiss outside of the kiss that I explained to you that happened when I got married. He leaned in and kissed me, and it was so electrifying. I was so electrified. And this time we had changed from the moped to a car, so I got into the front seat, and he – we’d just met, who am I – and he said do you want to come back to my place. I do remember there being just a little hesitation of, are there rules? I’m new at this, am I supposed to play hard to get? It was a nano-second though and I was like yes, yes I do. Again, this all sounds so fantastical but it’s true. Every word is true. He doesn’t live very far from the art museum. He’s an artist, actually a pretty established artist, so he has this freight elevator that you get into so we 35:19, his studio is on the bottom floor, and we get into this freight elevator, we go up – just like the movie Rent, right? We come into this apartment and he has (of course) a rooftop with an outdoor shower, and plants all around and a big hot tub – I mean, I’m telling you. This was amazing.

S: Oh my gosh.

T: We walked out, and he just couldn’t keep his hands off of me. I loved every minute of it, and we went from the counter to the floor to the bed – we were breaking things and crashing things. I was very engaged in this, but if I hadn’t been me, I’d be like – who is this, how did this happen? It was just everything that I had ever thought and been told that this is what I should have been fighting my whole life.

S: Wow.

T: At one point – it was the next morning, and I think he went either to get coffee or was away, and I was looking out the window, and I just had this huge, deep sigh from within, and I said I’ve come home. It wasn’t home with him, I think we’re going to be together forever – it was a sense of I have come home to who I am, for the first time. I think at this time I was 40, 42 maybe, and I have come home to who I am. It was profound. It was profound. I don’t want to make anyone feel bad if your first time wasn’t like that –

S: Yeah, my gosh.

T: It was pretty incredible. He was fantastic, and I think that was the first time – you know when you’re comparing these truths, that the person you save yourself for and he’s going to respect you, and there’s this tearing that happens if you’ve ever slept with anyone. I remember thinking the logical thoughts of I have never felt so seen, I’ve never felt so respected, I’ve never felt so cared for and treated with tenderness and raw passion than I did in all my years of marriage. It isn’t true. It isn’t true.

S: And your soul, and the fibers of your being weren’t ripped and destroyed.

T: No. it was the exact opposite. I knew – one of the benefits, I will say, of being able to explore when you’re an older woman, is you do have some wisdom that you’re bringing with you, which does help. I’m able to check things out and have my intuition working, so I definitely felt safe. I knew he didn’t love me like my spouse loved me, the love that you have over 19 years – absolutely I knew that wasn’t this kind of love, but I could definitely slice that out and say this passion was not – he wasn’t using me. He wasn’t just trying to get something from me. He wasn’t taking.

S: It was a shared, creative experience together, where you were both giving to and receiving from one another.

T: Yes! And it was frickin beautiful. And in 19, almost 20 years of marriage, I never had that mutual give and take shared experience of intimacy in a relationship where I knew I was loved than I did that night, and in times to come. It wasn’t the only time. But okay, that was my great pentasy. 39.00

 S: And he wasn’t disappointed that you weren’t a virgin, that you were a soiled, deflowered thing already?

(laughter)

T: Hoooo, so much so that I think in different times later on, I think most decent guys usually back off from that, they’re like hey, nope.

S: Yeah, unless there’s something really special. Honestly, I think what a heavy responsibility and maybe that’s the reason why young people who are able to just be free and mindful and playful and just explorative – that’s a much better context to lose your virginity, in my opinion.one

T: Yes, absolutely. Because you know, it can come with the hangups of are they going to want this to be more – there’s just a whole lot in there. So no, he would later comment – we saw each other for a little bit – he would later comment when he found out I was just recently divorced, he would comment wow, you don’t seem to have any hangups that you’re carrying from that.

(laughter)

S: Oh my gosh – well, my experiences were a little bit different, in the sense that I was not fully divorced. Remember, I had a long protracted separation and everything else, so I struggled with some mixed emotions. Again, this is not a comment on the abilities of my then and now ex-husband. In that marriage there was a total emotional disconnection in the sense of authentic vulnerability. It wasn’t just being disconnected from him, but I was actually pretty disconnected from myself. You talk about coming home and finding yourself for the first time – that’s what I began to discover as well. I will say that sex outside and after that marriage – it was wonderful. Sex was my choice, my body, fun and freeing. You know the song Billy Joel’s Only the Good Die Young (God, we’re old that we remember that song), and you Catholic girls start much too late? Well, you Charismatic girls start much too late too. We may have started late Tracey, but man, we made up for lost time, and those lost teen and twenty years, for sure. I actually had feedback from a few of the lovers that I had that I was in some way…

T: Hold it, hold it. In like, a survey form? Did you send out a survey? I know that you’re very business minded.

S: (laughing) No! I did not send out customer satisfaction surveys, no I did not.

(laughter)

S: But I did hear from (not more than one or two) that – one was oh my god, this is the best sex they’ve ever had. And of course there was a part of oh yeah maybe they just say that to all the girls to keep them encouraged, but I don’t know – you and I had a lot in common, and I think our enthusiasm of like, yeah, this has been dammed up for decades. I’m just gonna be me. You and I did have a lot in common – including, we also had in common one mutual friend with benefits.

T: Ohhh. Wow.

(laughter)

T: But not at the same time.

S: No, it wasn’t concurrent. It was consecutively.

T: But in truth, he was actually your hand-me-down.

(laughter)

S: Well, I am older remember, so maybe I was just like, taking him for a test drive to make sure everything was okay and working before I passed him on to you.

T: Very good. And I was very grateful.

S: But I do remember him saying that we had amazing similar enthusiasm and talent.

(laughter)

S: Maybe it’s because we both came out of a cult.

T: Wow. You heard it here folks.

S: Oh my gosh. Definitely in all of this, we are not advocating using another person, or having any false pretences, or using sex to self-medicate. I can honestly say that all my sexual experiences outside my marriage were mutual. Were enjoyable. Were like two people totally deciding to do this, because this is the thing we each actually want to do in the moment, and enjoying ourselves and enjoying each other. That was totally contrary to that lie that we had been taught, that sex outside of marriage is inherently horrible, and soul destroying, and you will be broken and damaged forever afterwards. Not true. Not true at all.

T: And that is what was so great about being a little bit older, because we were able to bring some of those life lessons and I think how much more powerful it would be if we had a culture that helped teach some of those lessons to the younger generation, instead of saving yourself for marriage. That you learned that this sexuality is yours; it’s powerful, it’s creative, it’s one of the greatest experiences as far as our physical bodies that we can have – and, a responsible thing. We have to be responsible. We have to be safe. We have to be conscious of the other people at play. We need to bring in the characteristics of being kind and considerate, and all of these things that make that mutual experience so enjoyable. All of that’s missing when you teach…

S: It is. Because we’re telling kids don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t. Instead of saying look, let’s talk about these feelings. Let’s talk about your sexuality. Let’s talk about what it means to be able to be honest; to recognize what you want and need, to ask for what you want and need; to be clear with boundaries of what you’re not comfortable with, and to remove the shame, remove the stigma, and like – oh my god Tracey, wouldn’t it just be beautiful to imagine girls – I’m saying girls, women – in their late teens and early twenties to be empowered with this message. I think that’s the way things should be.

T: I do too. One of the comments when I was a beer wench at the counter – I remember my boss coming to me. This was at the time of the book The Da Vinci Code, and from a male he said I think there’s so much truth to this story. I think men have been afraid of the power of women for centuries, and that’s what they do is try to control women. It really pieced me, because I was under the understanding and belief system of all the stuff we’ve talked about, and here was a male rattling that cage for me. I’ve often thought that in our sexuality we give life. We have so much beauty and power of creativity that sit within our bodies, and if we could learn to see the beauty of that, and understand that it is our decision and our autonomy and our ability to control that and discipline that and do that freely with ourselves or whatever partner we’re wanting to have, it would just be a better world. Such a better world.

S: Yes, it would. Some of the things that for me, stepping out of that emotional bondage and into a sense of freedom – one thing I was committed to was I was going to be totally honest with the men that I was with, and one of the things I was honest about was being non-exclusive. So I was clear that at that point I was not asking for exclusivity, and I was not granting exclusivity. I joked with another friend, I’m kind of on the catch and release program. I just want to like, bring them in, play with them for a little while, and send them on their way because I am not looking for a long-term relationship. I also was working through some complicated stuff. I’m coming out of my confusion, and it took some time to clear some of the fog of decades, of what I had experienced. I had to work through things that had been so severely repressed in my teens, and really for my entire adult life. I will say, I did not always make the best choices. There were some overlaps where – you know, my marriage was clearly over, but not yet legally ended; again, we had that prolonged, multi-year separation and stuff, but it did create some inner conflict for me at times. But the sexual experiences were fun, great hot sex, really cool friendship connections, and an awakening to myself – who I really was, and learning about my own emotions. Again, the sense of fun, the sense of freedom and fun. Of self-empowerment, self-determination, making my own choices, losing all those inhibitions, and – there were some older men, there were some younger men, there were even a couple of one-night stands. A couple of longer-term friendships, and later, at the end of that timeline of those years, that last one bloomed into true love and I married that man.

T: And you married that man. I think in other podcasts you’ll hear that people coming out from where we’ve come out, go a little wild, mainly because we didn’t get to regulate. We didn’t have the tools to self-regulate, to learn how to do that. So there is some pendulum swinging. For the younger generation, absolutely bringing in those characteristics of do unto others as you would have them do to you – I mean, there were some foundations that I kept with me ..

S: Me too.

T: So I did always want to be honest. I’m gonna always treat someone with respect. I want to definitely not be using them. I do not want them to feel that I’m communicating something that’s not fair and upright. And finding that empowerment to have those conversations was amazing. I’ve seen it in the younger generations – some of them are a lot more advanced that we ever were…

S: No kidding!

T: To be able to have that clear communication, but also understanding that everybody has their own limits. Sometimes – I’ve talked to women my age that are like, I can’t do that. When I sleep with somebody so much of me is given out that I have to be very careful. Great. That’s you. You know who you are. You know your boundaries. You know your safety zones. You know what you’re going to need for that intimacy. And that’s the message – go and do that. Learn that. It’s not a one size fits all for everybody, and that’s the beauty of this amazing ability to have that intimacy. It does start hitting into the other aspects of who we are.

S: It does. Having a full authentic and intimate relationships – Tracey, I feel like I’m still learning that stuff. As an individual, in my second marriage – we’re both learning. He’s a wonderful man and he digs deep in his own journey of self-awareness and personal growth, and I think I mentioned to you that even as part of this podcast thing, I’ve been recently revisiting various issues and traumas from childhood and Last Days and that first marriage – these things that have shaped, going all the way back to early attachment style, and coping strategies and self-image, communication styles and all – here’s one thing that is kind of funny to me. My friends – you, being my closest friend – but other women who are very close friends – I think people in general view me as – they would describe me as being totally authentic and transparent, and real and honest and connecting, and I am that with my friends. But I can see now that I have actually struggled a bit in my life with my own children, not having had a great role model to follow of how do you do that authentic thing with your kids, especially adult kids. Tracey, you have been an amazing inspiration in that to me. I watch you with your kids, and I’m just – I’m amazed. I’m amazed at how you do that, and it’s beautiful. And I’m finding in my second marriage, it is beautiful to be discovering these deeper levels of being real. I’ve had a lifelong journey of unlearning – tearing down bullshit and building something that’s really real. It’s interesting to me – it’s just an interesting, beautiful journey.

T: It is, and we continue to learn – some of my biggest teachers have been my kids as they’ve challenged me and told me how they were thinking about things, and when you can craft a life where you do get to learn from the younger generation, we get to share things from our generation – we get to really recognize the beauty in others. Another mind-blowing moment for me was taking yoga, which was supposed to be evil…

S: Of the devil.

T:  Craziness. But just the very statement of the divine in me recognizes the divine in you – that’s mind blowing. Because that’s not how we…

S: Wait, say that again.

T: The divine in me recognizes the divine in you.

S: Beautiful.

T: That was mind-blowing to me, to be in this religious system and it was of supposedly evil, and I thought how beautiful it is if instead of under the Keith Green can’t you see all the people sinking down, they’re all going to hell, instead it’s I recognize the divine in you. I recognize the value. I recognize the power of your choice. I recognize your autonomy. It changes the way you treat people.

S: Totally. Totally changes it. Alright. Let’s start wrapping this thing up a bit, shall we?

T: We shall!

S: I was thinking especially about this whole situation – it is not an either or. It’s not either purity, virginity, total suppression of sexuality, or out of control, using and abusing others, sexually transmitted diseases, unplanned pregnancies, broken lives – it’s not either/or. There is something else, and that’s the beautiful thing to discover. Healthy human sexuality – it’s not a free for all. It’s not, like we said, using, abusing, disrespecting, disconnecting from yourself. It’s about discovering and exploring your personal sexuality. What you enjoy. How you express. Finding your freedom. Being honest, being responsible, and then learning to do long term intimate relationships. That’s something different. I’m in my early 60s and I’m still figuring that stuff out. But you can have a great sex life without a long-term intimate relationship – or some people can. Some people may not want to. It’s choice; it’s personal choice. It’s personal autonomy. It’s personal agency. For those people who get married for one of the only two options, if you’re in fundamental Christianity – one, to be able to have sex legitimately, or two, to advance the kingdom of God – what we have seen over our lifetime, some of those folks stay married, and it’s okay. A few stay married, and maybe it’s great. Some stay married and are miserable and many, many, many – the majority – end in divorce. The other thing for me is there are young women out there, I’m guessing hundreds of thousands, and a few that we personally know – who are victims of this indoctrination and spiritual abuse. Anything with the opposite sex becomes such a big deal, and they must hear from God first. Because of this earnest integrity, they delay, they postpone, they don’t feel they can date, there’s so much internal angst and self-examination, and they figure something is wrong with them. And then they may go all the way into their 30s and 40s and then they start to question the whole mindset. Okay, so the 40-year-old virgin – there’s nothing wrong with that, if that choice was made with intention and autonomy and full understanding and consent, versus this externally imposed religious bullshit. And that’s what I would like to blow apart.

T: Yes. Even the concept of virginity – there’s a lot of messages out now saying hey, that’s a social construct. You don’t need to be viewing yourself as one or as not one. This is your sexual journey, your sexual exploration. We’ve gone into great detail about what it was like to get married as virgins, the pain that was a part of that, but there is still the pain of some people who have never had any relationship because they’ve been so bound by these principles. So much fear, this put on such a pedestal of I can’t give this part of me to anyone because… That’s the part that we hope people will allow their brains to blow apart and start to explore. Take some risk of the other partner – what we’re talking about is intimacy. Intimacy – there’s a lot of podcasts out there – intimacy is hard for all of us. If you’re afraid to self-explore first, that’s where you need to start and not be held back by these really limiting, oppressive, abusive mindset of having lost something or given something away.

S: That is right.

T: Plus, I do want to call out that we recognize that Sharon and I are two straight, white women.

S: Okay, wait a second. We are women, we are white, some have questioned whether we are straight.

(laughter)

T: Some have, and I even had to do my own questioning which I didn’t get into a whole lot, but when I thought I was broken I absolutely went wait, maybe I like women. Maybe that’s what’s happening here. So I had to explore that. We have very good friends that at some point we’re going to do some interviews with those very good friends, of what it was like to be under this bondage in a community setting where you were discovering that you liked the same sex, and how awful that was because the only legal outlet before God you could have is marriage with the opposite sex. We recognize that’s not our journey for this, but we are going to get into that, because that part of being able to explore your sexuality is very important for all of us.

S: Yeah, the struggle those dear souls have faced – to me that’s just a whole other level of the condemnation and the judgement and the self-recrimination. And yeah. Can’t wait to be talking with some of these fantastic people.

T: Well, that’s a lot Sharon. That’s a lot.

S: It is. Oh my goodness Tracey. We had to go into four parts there, didn’t we.

T: Because we’re old. Our stories are so long. Ohhhh.

S: Okay everyone, well for those of  you who made it through all four episodes of Virgins and Volcanos, congratulations. I wish we had a parting gift for you, but um, we don’t. So I don’t know, pat yourselves on the back – or rub yourself somewhere else if you want.

T: You know, May is national masturbation month. I hope you noticed it when I posted it.

(laughter)

S: I’m not sure if this episode four is going to air in May, but maybe it will. That’d be cool.

T: The first three parts did, so definitely. That was serendipitous. I think that was God’s planning. I’m just gonna say that.

S: I think it was. Alright everybody. Well, Tracey, thank you so much, and why don’t you give us a shameless plug for people to follow us and rate us.

T: Shameless plug – wherever you’re listening to this, please go in and rate us, and leave a review, only if you haven’t been too tortured by our stories. Kidding – you can leave whatever review feedback that you want to for our podcast, or check us out for some of these fun pictures on Instagram – it’s Feet of Clay.cult sisters.

S: Thanks for putting that altogether, Tracey. Alright everybody, adios.

T: Adios.

 

 

…

 

 

008 – Bonus: A Few Moments of Vulnerability

S: Hey there, I’m Sharon.

T: And I’m Tracey. And we are Feet of Clay – Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: So I wonder if we confused everybody by changing up the order of our names. Usually you go first Tracey, but we’re mixing it up.

T: Yes we are. So if you’re still listening to us, thank you. We’ve added this little bonus, which probably means you’ve made it through all four parts of Virgins and Volcanos.

S: Yes, congratulations folks for making it through! All that hot lava.

T: Oooh.

S: Yep. So Tracey, you mentioned the very first man that you were with after your husband, and I also talked a little bit about my encounters with other men as well. For both of us, those first experiences were really profound. I mean, really, truly life changing.

T: Very life changing. It wasn’t just about the sex. It was definitely a part of – well, you’ll hear it as I share part of what I’ve written. It seemed to restore and revive something in the very foundations of our beings.

S: Definitely.

T: So we thought we’d get really vulnerable here – as if we haven’t already – and share with you what we wrote all those years ago, me and my journal, and Sharon in a poem.

S: Yep. You know Tracey, I confess – and this is really true – I feel a bit nervous right now. I feel I’m actually even getting a little bit of a dry mouth, so to share this, which something I wrote just for me and this other person – it’s kind of like getting totally naked emotionally. But I think it’s worth it. my hope is that as we are being vulnerable like this, others out there who have struggled or are struggling to try to find themselves, perhaps even for the first time, that they might take heart and find the courage to step forward into their own freedom.

T: Yes, so be gentle with us dear listeners; this is the first time for both of us.

(laughter)

S: Alright, well um, Tracey you go first.

T: Okay. I’ll go first. Since we recorded our podcast, some people have been just great and reached out, and I think we broke some hearts out there of thinking we’d been so wounded, so I hope this gives encouragement to our listeners that we didn’t stay in that broken place. There was definitely joy that was coming for us.

S: Yes. Joy was definitely coming for us. And we were coming for joy!

(laughter)

T: We should have a t-shirt! …

S: Alright, I’ll stop joking, and you can begin.

T: And to reminder the listeners, I did answer an ad in the personals and really used all my intuition and all the growth that I had come to that point to make sure I was safe. After my initial meeting with this man, this is what I wrote.

I found myself sitting across the table from a man whose intellectual and spiritual roots ran far deeper than my own.
Whose composure exuded that rare blend of wild abandon yet calm stability.
Whose very essence reflected without fanfare the evidence of a rich array of life experiences.

You were no character, but one that stood at the far end of a path I had just begun to travel.
And though our verbal communications stayed somewhat shallow, and at times even a little disconnected, there was an unspoken message coming from you that resonated loud and clear within me. I was drawn.
You kissed me, and I knew I had a choice to make.
Back at your apartment, as I looked over the skyline, I immediately felt a sense of coming home. It was as though I was reunited with a part of me that I had lost long, long ago.
In the spillover of your quiet strength I found safety to follow the voice that had been beckoning me for months. The voice that gave me permission to follow my desires.

Releasing my sensuality with you came as naturally as breathing.
Without guilt or fear, shattering once and for all the guise of truth the lies had worn.
No more self-doubt.
You were a springtime awakening in the dead of my winter; a gift, handpicked by the universe to encourage me forth into vibrant and luscious living.
And though I have only skimmed your surface, I will forever be grateful for you choosing a lifestyle that encourages the freedom of sensual expression, and for sharing a small part of that with me.

S: Tracey, thank you for sharing that with all of us. It gives me goosebumps; it makes me feel a little teary-eyed. Just – yeah. The joy. The beauty of all that. Thank you so much.

T: Okay. It’s not so bad Sharon. Now you get to go.

S: Okay. Deep breath. I will just say that the first time I ever felt a sense of real romantic love for a man, it was an emotional connection, long, long before it became physical. This is a poem I wrote.

When I awake, my thoughts take flight and far across an ocean fly
To light upon the love who holds my heart
Once cold. Once left to die.
As the sun his journey makes, my soul is filled with silent song
Whispered for this secret love, to whom my hopes and dreams belong.
And when the stars and moon embrace, to gently fade the twilight blue
I close my eyes and feel the joy of knowing, trusting, loving you.

T: Oh my god, that’s so beautiful. I stand and I say I don’t know how or why you should feel embarrassed from that. It is so encouraging for me to see these two teenagers, you and me, locked away, and then finally watching, like a flower, our hearts blooming. They say that’s why there’s love songs and poetry. It’s basically the voice of love, right? So that’s very, very beautiful.

S: It is. I love you Tracey. Thank you for being on this journey with me.

T: I know it really is a gift, because there are so many people who start this journey and they don’t have somebody to be able to share it with, and so I never take that for granted, that we’ve been able to share this journey together.

S: Me either. Me either. So let’s sign off, I guess? Our typical thing? Folks, if you like what you hear please follow our podcast, Feet of Clay, Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

T: And please review, because that puts us up into the search engines to allow other people to find us, as well as if you want to check out some of our images that we talk about, please find us at Instagram, Feet of Clay.cult sisters.

S: Thank you so much for listening, folks, and thank you for being gentle with us.

T: Yes! So be gentle in the reviews!

(laughter)