This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 007 – Virgins and Volcanos – Purity Culture Part 3

May 31, 2023

T: Hey, I’m Tracey.

S: And I’m Sharon, and this is our podcast.

T: Feet of Clay – Confessions of the Cult Sisters.

S: Our last episode was part two of our conversation all about purity culture. We called it Virgins and Volcanos, because it did include literal virgins…

T: That would be us!

S: Yes. And proverbial volcanos.

T: Also known as the pre-dinner masturbation confession, and so much more.

(laughter)

S: And if anybody doesn’t know what that is referring to, you’ve gotta go back and listen to those other episodes. We told the stories about our own engagements, our weddings, and our honeymoons.

T: And now we are at part three of that topic, so if you haven’t listened to it; as Sharon said, please go back and check out the first part and the second part. Again, we’re going to give a little warning here – we’re going to get very personal with our sexual histories …

S: It’s a BIG warning.

T: Ahaha. It’s a big warning. So if you have kids with you right now you will probably want to come back to this later and of course, if you are one of our kids…

S: All ten of you out there, you know who you are.

T: Yeah, so you can make your own decisions, but listen at your own risk. You’ve been warned.

S: In all seriousness; to our collective kids as well as their significant others – we’re honestly totally okay with you listening here, but realize it is going to be quite detailed so, you know…just saying. Tracey, also one thing we’ve talked about – and it’s really, really important for us to emphasize every time, we are not trying to hurt anyone in this, and that includes our former spouses. We’re recounting what happened to us in our lives as a result of the message and the belief system of fundamental Christianity, this purity culture thing – the whole spiel about husband headship and wifely submission and all that goes with it.

T: Yes. And now that we’re on the other side of it – and I know we’ve said it’s been a few years since we’ve been on the other side of it – we can absolutely see the deep, deep damage that these beliefs caused in us (which we’re going to be getting into in great detail) – and also they continue to cause harm today for lots of others.,

S: Yes, for those who are currently immersed in purity culture, as well as those that are trying to come out of it. There’s so much damage. We also believe that our first husbands – they were just as much victims of this extremism as we were. Even if they don’t currently think so and even if they still hold onto these beliefs. And Tracey, of course our children – they were also negatively impacted and some much more deeply than others.

T: Yes. Going through all this we are doing our very best to be gracious and understanding, and trying to be gentle with our stories, but also we’re going to be very honest and very transparent, because these are things we struggled with. I know I had deep, deep shame for a lot of this, and wasn’t able to talk to anybody about that. I’m hoping that as we really go in and talk about some of the taboo topics, that people don’t talk about, that will help others to maybe recognize some of that, and hopefully open up and talk to somebody.

S: Yep, definitely. I made this little note to myself – before we started recording today I suddenly remembered the tagline for the Last Days newsletter. I don’t know if you recall it – “A Witness And A Warning”.

T: Yes!

S: I was thinking like, here and now we are bearing witness to our own craziness and misery, and we are also shouting a warning to everyone else out there to stay the fuck away from this shit.

T: Wow, that is ironic. I think I actually have the piece of artwork that has that, so I’ll try to post it.

S: The sleepy church? Remember the one with the sleepy, yawning church?

T: Yes, I have that.

S: That pre-dated me, so I am not the one to blame for that particular alliteration – just so you know.

T: It was the spirit of alliteration. I might have to drive that demon out, but for this episode we’ll keep it going.

S: Alright.

T: So in our last episode if you were paying attention, there is a P-trail where we are talking about all of the Ps of our journey. In the last episode we ended with preparation – not Preparation H for hemorrhoids but the preparation to end our virginity.

S: Yep. Oh my gosh, you know what? I never thought about it that way. The preparation to the end of virginity.

T: Yes!

S: That’s what it was. Wow.

T: Yes, it was the end of our virginity. There was a lot of mental and supposedly some physical preparation. We did start going through the pain, and talked a little bit about the emotional and physical pain of that, but in doing so that pain didn’t end just on that wedding night or honeymoon.

S: No, it didn’t. So there was both stuff that we did and stuff that we didn’t do in getting ready.

T: Hmm, you know what that reminds me of?

S: What’s that?

T: That Keith Green song the sheep and the goats, from what they did and didn’t do. Duh duh duh daaa.

S: Oh yes, on how you’re going to be judged and whether you’re going to heaven or hell.

T: Yes.

S: I remember it. Alright, you know I was thinking about it more – I had originally just thought about the pain of that whole wedding night experience, but I also realized that the category of pain includes the increasing troubles over the next two decades of our marriages. We need to pick up there where we left off; we’ll continue with the pain and then we’ll talk about the parting and finally – and thank-fullll-yyyy – we’ll talk about the after party.

T: The after party.

S: Party on! Yes. But before we pick it up from there, let’s circle back and touch on any things that we may have missed or want to clarify from that last episode.

T: Great, because one of the things I had noticed when we had ended it – I think we were pretty emphatic about you don’t want to be a virgin on your wedding night –

S: Right.

T: We just want to clarify that absolutely, it’s your sex life and you get to determine your rules and your boundaries and do what you want to do. So that’s not what we were saying at all. What we were trying to say is hey, you don’t have to be a virgin on your wedding night, and we’re going to tell you some of the reasons why.

S: It should be an informed decision; the idea of hey make your own decision if you want to be a virgin or not.

T: Yes!

S: But it needs to be informed. And those people that are currently promoting purity culture; they are not telling you the whole truth. Maybe they’re not even telling you part of the truth, but you need to be informed.

T: Yes. And if you go into it not even knowing how your body works, we’re telling you that’s not going to be a great experience. And most importantly we’re standing against the message that you’re used or spoiled or dirty or deflowered or spent or damaged that often goes along with losing your virginity. You do some google work on the internet – the language is changing with the younger generation which I’m really, really grateful for. You’re not a piece of chewed up gum that now has no value; you’re not losing anything, and if people are calling it a sexual debut – we can come back to that, I don’t know how I feel about either because to me it still puts a little bit of pressure on. It’s just a normal entrance into understanding your sexuality.

S: Right. And the belief system that emphasizes that importance and the virtue of being a virgin on your wedding night actually has the message that it is essential to be a virgin on your wedding night if you want to follow God’s laws and be pleasing to him. And that’s the part that’s so incredibly toxic.

T: Amen sister.

S: I thought more about this fixation with purity – the veneration of virgins. All these things are coming to mind like that phrase, he took her virginity. So it’s a man taking from a woman, and now he gets to own something that once was hers? That’s just a fucked up mindset.

T: It is.

S: And it’s not just in Christianity. Think about in Islam – that whole reward that gets used to help promote…what’s the term for suicide in Jihad, is that what it is? But the 70 virgins, if you sacrifice yourself to the will of Allah he’s going to reward you with 70 virgins? And then the idea of virgin in child sacrifice that’s well documented in other ancient cultures.

T: Ugh wow. I posted a picture of you and I on our first communion. I pulled mine out, I was so glad you found one of yours; when I looked at us both together – how old were you when you did your first communion?

S: Oh my gosh, first grade, so like, six years old?

T: Yeah. I think I was ten, maybe.

S: Oh wow, okay.

T: Yeah, and just the memorization that we have to do of Hail Mary, and when I looked at us in our white little dresses with our veils and our prayer hands folded with the words Hail Mary full of grace, and just the veneration of the virgin mother – I was like, that’s some screwed up shit.

S: Well, it is. If you think about it – if the Virgin Mary had the immaculate conception (I remember not knowing what that meant for years, but basically it means that she herself was conceived without her mother having sex, so her mother had to be a virgin too – because I guess, to be pure, a woman cannot have had sex.

T: Which is just so weird.

S: It is, and the other thing I thought about is in that whole story of the supposed virgin birth of Jesus – so the angel comes and tells Mary that God’s going to impregnate her – he doesn’t ask her. So that’s non-consensual, isn’t it?

T: It’s non-consensual and we were growing up with this culture was the norm. I realized afresh, because obviously the decisions we made to go wholehearted after Jesus, we kind of discounted that part of our childhood. That was in all our symbology, if you go into a Catholic church, it’s everywhere. I absolutely knew the term Virgin Mother when I was a girl, and seeing even this ceremony of putting on a white dress – I was like, wow. This definitely set the stage for us embracing some of the other stuff that we didn’t question. I think we talked about before – we didn’t question the premise, and we were convicted Sharon, from a very young age.

S: We were. I think about your references to our early Catholic experiences, and I do think there is some more excavation in my life yet to come on that. I kind of always shrugged it off; it was just superficial; I was in Parochial school through second grade, but I have learned, my friend, that you are incredibly insightful and so yeah, I’m going to follow your lead on that in future exploration, and see where it takes us.

T: Oh, well thank you. Very good.

S: I was thinking also about the Hollywood myth of tossing the virgin into the volcano to appease the angry gods. From what I understand of historical research, the volcano part is a myth, but that idea of sacrificing something pure for appeasement; that is in a variety of cultures throughout the ages. Also – here’s another one I thought of – isn’t that the essence of Jesus’ sacrifice in all of Christianity, because he’s got to be that pure, spotless lamb of God.

T: Yes.

S: The Christian narrative mandates, therefore, that Jesus was a virgin. So Jesus was a virgin, a 33 year old virgin when he died. Which means also, he could never have masturbated. I wonder, did he ever have a wet dream, and what do you do with that? And then, finally, I’m like why the fuck are the gods so angry anyway? Right? So there’s a God who made us and sets this whole thing up – does he have a right to be angry with us for what he designed? It just makes me want to scream at how pervasive this whole Christian tradition and virgin purity culture veneration – just start to finish – arrgh. Drives me crazy.

T: Yes. It does drive me crazy, and it’s not just Christianity. It goes throughout almost every culture and all religious disciplines, so all that to say – that’s not what we’re yelling about, being a virgin on your wedding night. It’s the whole underpinning of what that supposedly means.

S: Right. And I’ll just say one last thing about it; it basically denies the value of full womanhood. It implies that a woman’s sexuality is not of equal worth as a man’s. And a virgin woman is more valuable than a woman who has had sex even one time, and that is some fucked up shit.

T: It is. And it’s heartbreaking, and you’ll see how it impacted us, because the confusion of the message – even when you were mentioning that Jesus was a virgin – the confusion of the message is now you’re married, how do you go from this is the most holy state you can be in to now, have I compromised? Because now supposedly the marriage bed is undefiled, but there still definitely is a war that I know was within my heart on how to bring those two together.

S: Right.

T: So here we are, Sharon. We’re back on the P trail, at pain. Are you ready to get going?

S: Yeah, let’s go for it.

T: Alright, so we could probably divide the pain, and because our stories are so vast and go through so many decades, we’re trying to break these up into sizeable chunks so that the listener doesn’t get dizzy with everything going on. The pain that we’re dividing up is in three stages. The first stage, which would just be the beginning, doing life, Jesus, when we got married at LDM – the second stage, growing families, growing discomfort, and then the third stage, hitting that tipping point of no return, where eventually it will lead to the parting.

S: Notice there’s no honeymoon stage for either of us. I mean, we sort of went on a physical honeymoon trip, but I don’t think we would categorize any stage of our marriage as what society typically calls the honeymoon stage.

T: No. Not at all. Our marriages did span – I almost made it to 20 years. I think you made it a little further than I.

S: Twenty-five!

T: Wow. So that’s a lot of stuff to cover, leading to the point where it finally came to where we gave ourselves permission to get a divorce, and the gender roles that we played – it’s very, very deep topics, so in order to keep this topic on topic as far as the purity culture and sexual development, and how that impacted our marriages; we’re going to save some of those deep dives for another episode more devoted to divorce. So Sharon, I’m going to try to corral you in…

S: (laughing)

T: To say – how do you distil 20-25 years of marriage into an hour episode to say how we got where we are, but we do want to keep the thread of the purity culture, the thread of our sexual development, the thread of how we performed sexually in our marriages, to the point where we got out of it and had our first experiences outside of that.

S: Alright. You know this is going to be really hard for me.

(laughter)

T: It is, but the beauty is we have more podcasts to do, so we don’t have to do it all in this podcast.

S: Okay. You convinced me. So as we said, there is so much to be said about all that stuff, and specifically how the fundamental Christian beliefs set us up for that shit ton of problems, more pain – you know what Tracey, there was absolutely no way it was going to be possible for us to succeed in those marriages. Yep, we’ll save the stuff for future episodes, so right now we’re going to stick on – ooh, our hot and steamy sex lives, shall we?

T: Ahahaha, we shall. Or should that be the sex lives we had, and didn’t have.

(laughter)

S: Right, and then discovered.

T: And then discovered. So getting onto that last p – the party. So you’re getting ahead of the story.

S: Alright.

T: So, let’s unpack the pain. Did you see my alliteration I did? Are you impressed?

S: Oh my gosh, woman! Alright so, the first stage in my marriage, as you’ve described it – kind of the beginning, I was basically doing life in Last Days Ministries and then some years after Last Days Ministries. Again, let’s just reiterate – both of us, both me and my husband, we were coming into this as broken people. Kind of messed up childhood, no really good role models, not our parents, certainly not even Keith and Melody Green – those were not good role models. And … sex, right. That’s what you want us to focus on.

T: That’s what I want you to focus on.

S: Ah, my blessed Christian married-as-a-virgin sex life.

T: Alright, let me stop you just there. I know that we’ve asked listeners to go back to part one and part two and we’ve kind of built on our stories with our interviews, but both Sharon and I got married in a commune setting. Sharon got married earlier on, so when you got back to Last Days Ministries I think after only a day of being married, you came back to a commune setting and you were in a bedroom that was off the kitchen, that was the community kitchen where people were in and out, so there was definitely not a honeymoon period.

S: No.

T: Talk about not having role models – how do you thrust a young couple into that and say okay. It’s crazy.

S: Well, you know – it is what it is. I’m sure there are other cultures where there is less privacy for newly wed couples, but that’s probably a rabbit trail we don’t need to go down. So to be clear, I am not in any of this saying that my former spouse was deficient as a lover. He wanted me to be sexually responsive; he wanted me to have pleasure and orgasms, but for me, sex was mostly about my Christian wifely duty, and between us – in that marriage, honestly I didn’t feel a deep, vulnerable, authentic emotional connection. I didn’t feel that between us. I definitely didn’t feel a total acceptance of who I was as a person. I’ve come to learn and understand that is such a vital part of unlocking any woman’s long-term sex drive. In our other episode I talk about the dissociation that had begun on that wedding night. I think that was still often very much at play in our sex lives, married throughout the years. There may even be that there was more of that dissociation than I can see for myself at this point – that kind of out of body watching yourself thing. There were also certain interpersonal interactions between us – the relationship throughout our marriage – that were very hurtful to me, and of course that was further suppression of sexual desire. On the mechanical side in sex – you know what Tracey, we still weren’t allowed to touch ourselves. We could only touch each other, but we couldn’t touch ourselves. I don’t know if that was out of the book, or if that was just out of assumption because hey, if masturbation is wrong, touching yourself and giving yourself pleasure is wrong, does that change now just because you’re married? So we’re basically – we could give each other verbal instruction of what to do to the other (that was a little bit awkward!) but I am absolutely not touching my clit, he is absolutely not touching himself – at least when we were together. I didn’t have any temptation to masturbate on my own, and I never did – it was a very different and ongoing struggle for him, it was often hidden, and I know that carried a lot of shame for him. Again – oh my god, that just shows, he was just as much a victim of this whole purity culture bullshit. It was just a different flavor of victim.

T: It was a different flavor. If he struggled – and I know we were taught to confess that so we could be healed from that; I don’t know if at some point in your marriage he started confessing that – did it make you feel like you were not adequate, or that he was stumbling because you were not being everything that you were supposed to be?

S: I didn’t necessarily feel that I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to do, because I did. I never said no, Tracey. Never. My entire marriage I never said no to sex. And I didn’t do it begrudgingly either, because I’m all in for Jesus, right? I don’t remember many times of confession from him. I do remember finding things. I remember finding rented pornography VHS tapes, I remember finding printed pornography photos and I felt bad for him, I felt upset because of hypocrisy. I do remember one time that he asked me to shave or really trim down my pubic hair, and I knew that had to have come from the pornography he was watching, and that did make me feel a bit objectified, I think.

T: Yeah, we were taught that masturbation was self-pleasuring and we’re actually depriving our spouses if we do it, we should be leaning on our spouses to pleasure us, and if he is looking elsewhere to be stimulated, our teaching told us that was wrong. I’m going into a lot more liberal thinking right now, but at that time it was such a slight – you are depriving me, you are getting your pleasure from an area outside of God’s chosen way.

S: I didn’t feel necessarily deprived because remember, I’m not the one walking around with a big sex drive myself because of all the reasons we already talked about. But it did, on a subconscious level – and I can look back and see it now – it did make me feel less than. It made me feel that there was something sexually inadequate. My sexual attractiveness was not as great as the women he enjoyed looking at. So that was definitely there. We had no sex toys; no sex play – I don’t think foreplay was anything we even really talked about. I mean, there would be a little bit of it, and of course still – lots and lots of lube, to the point mentioned before, we would literally joke that we should buy KY Jelly by the gallon.

T: Wow.

S: It’s also funny (funny or not funny) – I didn’t learn until decades later with other men that nipple stimulation was actually a thing and could be totally mind blowing. It’s like oh my god, you mean that’s a little button and that’s what it does?

T: Because you guys weren’t sharing with each other and probably didn’t know about your own bodies because of everything we’d been taught, to even suggest such a thing.

S: It would never have occurred to me. I didn’t even know it was possible. Nipples were for nursing babies; that’s what they were for. And that was among other things that I later discovered – okay, I’m not going to go there.

T: Getting ahead.

S: And also, just in case any of our kids are actually listening, we don’t have to go into all of the details. I had occasional orgasms in the marriage, but again, not allowed to touch myself, so orgasms are limited to if and when he can get it just right. That is a horrible pressure on any man. I would imagine he would struggle with feeling is he adequate, and it’s just unfair. It’s unfair. So the physical mechanics worked, the whole mechanisms of sexual arousal and physiology in our nervous system – they worked, but hey, I’ve got a question for you Tracey. Did you ever fake an orgasm just to try to help speed things up and get it over with? I have to confess I did think about it from time to time, and I was tempted, but I didn’t do it because in my conscience I would be lying.

T: That would be lying. Well, I have to congratulate you that you actually had some orgasms in (I assume) a missionary position in the way we were taught. Cos I did not. I was basically sexually dysfunctional. I felt so bad and so guilty about it. Even the TV shows – even though we didn’t have a TV for a while, but you heard the jokes about women faking orgasms – I wouldn’t even know how to fake one because I’d never had one.

(laughter)

T: What I would think about was Harry meets Sally, when she’s eating the salad…

(laughter)

T: And I was like, is that really what one is like, because I’ve never come close to that and I would feel ridiculous trying to fake something like that, because it would be so out of character.

S: Oh my gosh, that is funny. That reminds me, the orgasms I had in my marriage – I was never vocal. I never – no, I was quiet. I was just quiet. But later in life with other partners and lovers, oh my god, you have a great orgasm you cannot be quiet – at least, I can’t.

T: Right? Right?

S: That’s right.

T: Yeah, so maybe now you’d know how to fake one, but back then it was like, what am I faking? This is a mystery. So, like you, I was taught whatever you do, do with all your heart. I was all in as much as I could be all in, but I often likened it to going to the gym or working out – ugh, nobody wants to go to the gym, you don’t want to workout but once you put your clothes on and you get going, it’s not bad. So it was, I’m going to give my all to this, and once we got involved – yeah, it was like a workout. It wasn’t all bad. It was nice to be touched, it was nice to have certain feelings; there were definitely swings according to my hormonal cycle where some was better feeling than others, but never orgasm.

S: Mmhmm. I remember this one time out of the blue, I was grocery shopping, I was in the produce section and I don’t remember if it was a cucumber or a zucchini – I was probably in my mid-30s, and I picked this thing up, just grocery shopping for my family, and all of a sudden there was like this sexual rush. I didn’t know what that meant. That was weird to me. I look back on it now with a lot of amusement at my naïve, silly self.

T: Do you know if you were between babies at that point?

S: Oh, I’m sure I was. Who knows. Maybe I was in ovulation cycle; who knows. And then there was this one other time – it was a one time only thing – while we were having sex. You’re right, it was always in the missionary position (I shouldn’t say that, sometimes I’d be on top, but it was just basic, vaginal sex). We’re having sex; I’m in my mid-30s again, and I had this thought that I would like to try something, let’s just say a little kinky. I totally surprized myself – I shocked myself by having that thought, and I shut that down. I was totally confused – where did that come from? I never mentioned that to him; I never mentioned it to anyone else – until now, to the whole world, on our podcast.

T: Can you tell me what the thought was?

S: No, I’m not going to say that – my kids might be listening!

T: I mean, hopefully they have healthy sex lives, so…

S: You really want me to say it?

T: Yeah, I really do.

S: Okay, so it felt like it would be nice to feel a little something in my ass.

T: Oh, yeah. That would be a shocking thought.

S: Was that different from what you thought I was going to say?

T: No, I think the physiology tells us there is a point in there that can actually stimulate orgasm, so no. But we wouldn’t have known that at all.

S: Not then. But back to those nipple buttons; there are buttons in different places on your body that you never knew existed.

T: Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with the world.

S: You’re welcome!

T: No, but on the serious side that’s why I think these conversations are so good because just even the fact that there would be any shame in that, even now, or embarrassment – this is our bodies. Our anus as well as our others definitely are there to explore and feel pleasure, and there’s still so much taboo around that.

S: Yes.

T: We’re just trying to change that up, so if that’s something you all want to try, go out there and try it.

S: You know what? Something just occurred to me. The only things that seemed “right” were basic vaginal sex – and also oral sex. We were pushing the edge and the envelope, because I remember that book we read making a big deal that okay, anything within the construct of a Godly marriage, anything that both the husband and wife are okay with and agree to, that’s okay and blessed by God. But I always interpreted that message seemed to be vaguely trying to hint around oral sex. Maybe it came out and said it but I didn’t remember that. But here’s what’s occurring to me just now – and I’m glad you pressed me to talk about how something in the ass can feel good. I bet you that a lot of the Christian world doesn’t want to think about that or go there for women, because then you have to think about it and go there for men, and now you open up the whole question of legitimacy of the homosexual experience. That’ll be a whole ‘nother topic I know, but I’m just connecting the dots for myself right here and now.

T: Well, good. I’m glad you connected it, because that’s absolutely true and shows you how these books are so limiting and you’re right – not even in recent history have they been turning books 34:36 in some small townships and cities that oral sex is actually illegal. Crazy. So I don’t think the books came out and absolutely stated it, because still there was so much taboo in so many circles.

S: Yeah. Alright, so tell me about the sex in the first stage of your marriage.

T: In the first stage. Well, we got off on rocky ground, as I shared in episode 2 so please go back and listen to that. I think I got as far as talking about our wedding night and you’ll remember that though I felt like I had failed, I was comforted by I have my whole life; we have our whole life, we have our whole honeymoon and we have our whole life to work this out. That was something the book emphasized; isn’t that a beautiful story that two people can come without experience and learn together and always share that. There was a part logically that I thought yeah, I kind of like that idea. We’re going to be growing and learning together and this is going to be great. So okay, let’s see how the honeymoon goes. I had got back – my church in El Paso was a pretty fundamentalist church but I think they also read the part of the book that says anything within a Godly marriage is okay. The ladies threw me a lingerie shower before I got married. I was so excited about this, because again, I had said in the last episode – I was still a 70s girl. I was looking forward to this being some fun. I got some fun lingerie. I got teddies and very sexy things.

S: Cool!

T: It was cool. I don’t know if our listeners know what a peignoir is, but a peignoir is more of a fancy two piece lingerie with a see-through robe. Of course, like a foolish, silly girl when I had come back home after that shower, I showed my dad all my gifts that I got. He just pursed his lips when he saw the turquoise teddy and said that’s just trashy, your mother would never wear something like that. I remember being crushed, and at this point (for our listeners, which we’ll get into in another episode), my mother had already passed so she wasn’t around anymore so it was just my father. I remember consciously thinking well, I’m glad I’m not hung up like those Catholics are hung up. I’m glad I’m going to be able to have a good sex life. I was still very much looking forward to some fun. One of the things I kind of knew about myself from my theatre days, but really developed that I ended up know about myself later, is that I love a good costume.

S: Yes! Yes you do. That’s another thing we share. We should go back and re-post those pictures that we took from the Rocky Horror Picture Show costume party. Put them up on that Instagram account you created.

T: Yes, and for those of you wondering what we’re talking about, that is Instagram Feet of Clay.cult sisters, and Sharon’s getting ahead again. That was part of the afterparty, because at that point none of us had seen that – the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

S: No, that’s not true.

T: Ohh, I hadn’t seen it.

S: I had seen it when I was 16 years old and I had joined the drama department at the University of Arizona. It was when I was a little bit backslidden and we would go at midnight on Saturday night, and I loved that movie. It was so much fun, and funny. Of course that was one thing that throughout my entire Christian life, even when I got back with Jesus, I always had this secret – I really like that movie. It’s really fun. I don’t see what’s wrong with it. Of course, it didn’t quite fit with our Christian values, did it.

T: Wow. That’s probably why you had orgasms in the missionary position.

(laughter)

T: Because I never even had that. I also was in drama, which is all part of our parallel journey, and our drama team also went to the showings every Saturday night at midnight, and I abstained, because I was an abstinence girl.

S: You were such a much better Christian girl than me, without a doubt.

T: So I never saw it, but I always wanted to, which will factor in later as we get going. So, back to my honeymoon and this amazing fun time that I’m supposed to be having with all this great lingerie. I had told in the last episode I got my body in good shape, I was very pleased with where I was at, so I went into the bathroom and I came out in one of the teddies. If you don’t know what that is you guys can look it up. And he was not that into it. I could tell – I’m very much taking it from non-verbal cues, and I think so much so that I was brave enough to say, you don’t like this? Or what don’t you like about that? And all he said was well, I would just prefer that you had nothing on; you don’t need to bother with that.

S: Oh no.

T: Again, I was crushed. I was crushed.

S: Tracey, oh my God. Wait one moment; that is just – here you are, you’re this young bride, you are wanting to be sexy and desirable and you’re making this effort for your husband, and it’s basically a shrug of the shoulders.

T: It’s basically the shrug of the shoulders. It did pierce; I recognized that it pierced, and again there was this weird confusion, like so much of the Christian messages. Because he didn’t say I don’t want you, go away, he said well, I would just prefer nothing on. So in one sense he’s telling me that my body is just so much better than being covered up, so should I not be offended by that? I was confused. Should I be hurt, should I be offended, or should I be flattered?

S: But the real you, in your subconscious, you took it as something very painful, because that was the reality of what it was. You had to maybe color it over with some Christian-speak, but you knew that it was rejection. In your heart you knew that.

T: Yes, and much later I would realize a rejection of who I am, the fun that I’m trying to bring to the table; the element of the foreplay that I would like to participate in; how to be able to enjoy – unwrapping a present. Who just goes in and gives a Christmas present from the closet? You wrap it, you make it a presentation, so that’s where my head was at. So yeah, it was hurtful. I think we had a ten day honeymoon which is pretty long and good – I never put another piece of lingerie on. I packed it all back into the suitcase, and from that honeymoon on I wore one of his big t-shirts to bed and I can probably count on my hands through the rest of the marriage when I had pulled something out for fun. But never got use out of all that lingerie shower.

S: That is so sad. That is just so sad.

T: And of course, I think it was two weeks after I got married I was already pregnant anyway, so it was kind of convenient to wear a big t-shirt because soon I wasn’t feeling sexy or pretty, and my body was going through changes that I didn’t recognize. So…

S: Right. Wow.

T: I guess we’re still in the beginning part and this is hawking 42.40 us out. I know we’ve said so many caveats – it’s not to throw anybody under the bus; I think also learning your personality in the sexual realm – I didn’t know mine, and all of these things now, and if I had been more confident I could have said well, sorry about that but you’re going to look – I could have done things that I would do now, but I was very young and naïve and I just took these hurts and kind of held them close and walked away. Fast forward to our first anniversary – I’m just saying we didn’t have a honeymoon period when we were so in love and couldn’t keep our hands off each other. That didn’t happen. Our first anniversary was the next marker of deep, deep pain for me. We had a baby because I got pregnant; our first baby was born in October, our anniversary was in December and we have a baby in tow to go out to dinner and try to celebrate this anniversary. I think I’m still kind of healing from the first baby by that time, I think we’d already started having sex after the baby period but it definitely – my breasts are full of milk and it was definitely the not like what I would expect a wild sex life to be. So we came home after dinner, got in bed, were doing the dutiful this is my anniversary sex, and I could feel he was 100 miles away from me. 100 miles away. I guess I was a brave young girl, because I asked the question that I probably wouldn’t now, I would never ask again, but I asked the question, because I could just feel he wasn’t present with me. I pulled back a little bit and I said, are you thinking of somebody else right now? And he, to his credit, or not credit, answered truthfully, yes I am. And I knew who that person was because he had written about that person in his journal. She had been a former sister at the Last Days community. I again, was crushed, and of course that wrecked any mood, and I think he felt terrible. Looking back at these two young people, I feel terrible for him because I think he’s been kind of convinced to be in this marriage and trying to do his part, but not having the feelings that he’s supposed to be having; I’m feeling those feelings so it’s making me lock away all the more and that was ending up being a very big bomb in my own heart, in my marriage. I had to go away with the Lord and have a quiet time, I did think I should just pack up my baby and leave. I’m going to get out of this marriage. We were under the belief system that the devil is out to break people up, and my mom had had a baby before she married my dad and left her first husband and that baby, and I was convinced this was a generational curse that it was up to me to break.

S: Oh my goodness.

T: I was determined – okay, I’m not going to do that. I’m going to fight for this marriage, I’m going to fight for my baby and I’m going to fight for my life. It’s not about my happiness; it’s about serving Jesus – which we went to in great length in our second episode. So that’s the first year of my marriage, Sharon.

S: I don’t know what words to say, because that level of pain is just – I don’t know Tracey. It’s unimaginable to me. There you are in the arms of your husband on your first anniversary; you’ve got a baby; and he’s thinking about someone else – and you’re right, kind of to his credit because we’re all supposed to be honest and not tell lies but oh my God, that reality. He’s “making love” to you, or going through the motions of sex, and fantasizing about another woman that he actually cares more about. That’s devastating. There just aren’t words for that. I am so sorry for that happening to you.

T: Well, thank you. There was a turning point with that belief system of Jesus has to be enough. And he can put love in a heart where there isn’t love. We went on to have some pretty honest conversations about that and he was definitely committed to trying to let God fan that love in his heart, but that also hurt. Why do you have to work so hard to love me? So, yeah.

S: Alright, well that was your first stage of pain.

T: That was my first stage of pain. For the listeners, it was not all that painful, eventually I buck up and go okay, we’re just going to do this marriage. It’s less bad as it goes on.

S: Well, let’s move on to our second stages; the growing of emotional and mental discomfort – although oh my God, how do you top that? And our third stage, the tipping point of no return. Do you want me to go first?

T: I do, because you are the older one. I was going to say age before beauty but that’s kind of mean.

S: This is where I again say fuck you Tracey!

(laughter)

S: Alright, so it’s 1987. I’m in my mid-20s and I had actually just given birth to our second child. He comes back from Pennsylvania from a wedding he had performed, some old Last Days people that had left and were getting married up in the Lancaster area. So he comes back from that Amish crazy world with this message that he’s so excited about, that we should no longer use birth control. We’re going to trust God; we’re going to be even stronger Christians because we’re going to let God decide our family size. Like I said, I had just given birth to our second child; we’d been kicked out of Last Days Ministries just a few months before;, we were living with his sister in California because we’ve got nowhere else to go; he’s got no job, we have no insurance and oh my God, we’re going to start having more babies?

T: Hallelujah, you were the converts. We were very happy, because we were living that way out the gate of our marriage, and there is a thing of misery loving company.

(laughter)

T: How can Godly people not see it this way, because this is the way to see it. So hallelujah! Beeep  did you see the light?

S: Well, he saw the light, and I did the dutiful wife thing. I did feel guilty – like, okay that’s logical, I guess I should trust God but I’ll tell you what – it made me want to avoid sex all the more, to avoid getting pregnant. And it made me want to nurse my baby even longer because I’d heard that nursing suppresses ovulation – which is not always true. I think you and I joked about it at some point – I’m like yeah, I think the answer is our kids will be getting off the school bus, coming home from kindergarten and we’ll say get over here quick kid, start sucking on this titty, because I’m gonna nurse you till your 10 years old.

(laughter)

T: Yes. I do member you joking about that. The funny thing is, the whole point of being able to trust God with your family size is it’s such a blessing; you’re welcoming them, you’re eager about this, and so we’re starting to have conversations of how do we still not have babies?

S: How do we prevent it without actively preventing it?

T: Yes, in a way that’s not going to piss God off. So dangerous.

S: Oh my goodness, yes. So any sex drive is now even more suppressed because of the fear of pregnancy. In 1989 my third child is born, and that’s the same time that I’m starting a small home-based business – hey wait. Let me just say – I want to say this loud and clear. I love each and every one of my five kids. You guys, if you’re listening (I’m not sure if I want you to be listening or not) – you are the lights of my life. I get teary with joy and my face hurts with smiling when I think of each and every one of you, so I would not undo this for the world. I just want to totally go on record with that.

T: Ditto, ditto, ditto. And we do want to recognize that this is another subject in and of itself that we are going to cover in a future podcast, as far as what happens when you don’t use birth control, and the financial impact, and the emotional impact, and the sex life impact, and all of that – but again, we’re corralling this to the one thread that’s going into the sexual appetite, the sex drive, how we’re performing in that arena, and this definitely has an impact when you’re nursing and having babies every couple of years.

S: Yes. Well, I’m not sure which one of us wins on this okay. We both had five kids, my last two were twins, you had five pregnancies, I had four pregnancies., I’m not sure which one of us wins. Maybe we’ll put it out to the listeners and let them vote on it later, but I’m just saying, okay.

T: Yes, I always tell people well, Sharon cheated because she did two for one. I had to go through five long pregnancies, but I guess you birthed them both, so…

S: Here’s the thing. I had the twins in 1991, and after that I came to a very profound conclusion. I decided I did not care what God thought. I was not having any more kids.

T: Rebellious woman!

S: I know. Rebellious woman. I told my husband – I think I basically said something to the effect of, I don’t care who you have sex with, but if you ever want to have sex with me ever again, you’re going to have to have a vasectomy.

T: Wow.

S: Yeah. He prayed about it – guess what Tracey! God changed his mind, and birth control was now okay! Isn’t that a miracle?

T: Oh. God’s amazing. Love that God.

S: So he did. He had the vasectomy. That at least took the fear of pregnancy out of the sex equation. But you know, my general sense was that I never really lived up to his expectations or demands. I felt all the time I was not a good enough wife; I was not a good enough mother; I was not a good enough businessperson, and most of all I was not a good enough Christian. All those feelings of course are more nails in the coffin, the death of sexual desire. Something I’ve learned since is I think there are two things that are really needed – for me, at least – to really feel connected and authentic and to have my sexuality be able to be freely expressed. And that is number one, to feel desired – not just physically, but to feel desired, and to feel safe. That would be emotionally, psychologically and physically. I did definitely feel desired by him on that physical level, but I didn’t feel safe on the emotional or psychological level. But then you know what Tracey, based on what you’ve just said, I think for you, you didn’t even really feel desired physically by your husband, right?

T: No. We can get into I think how Christianity prepares you even for that physical desire, because there’s a way that your body can feel desired but your whole being is not desired. I think that’s part of what you’re talking about as far as really feeling valued, and then the sexual expression is born from that. For me, I could never shake the fact that he wasn’t that into me. It was a real quandary for me. We ended up talking about it for periods of time – like I said, I think whatever bible verses – is it Elijah or Elisha where he calls the dead man bones and they put flesh on…

S: Don’t remember which one.

T: We’ll put that in the show notes, but that was like a promise of God to us. (laughing) – I think about that, what a fucked up verse to have, that our relationship could be like the dead man that God could call forth and put flesh on and make whole, because that’s where we were at. And he was acknowledging that, that he didn’t have the feelings he knew he should have. One day hopefully he’ll be able to share that part of his story of why that was. I don’t even know necessarily why except that he had perhaps become so locked away because of this purity message, that he could never resurrect that, or maybe it was just me. I don’t know. But there was – obviously – you have almost 19 years of marriage and definitely hormonal cycles going on, so there definitely were a couple of times – there were a handful, when I can remember – again, I’m approaching it with whatever you do, do with all your heart. And I was enjoying it. This was such a great feeling for me, and it made me feel better as a woman. I could tell he was enjoying it, and as a matter of fact one of our children was born as a result of this, and I’ll always remember that night. I was so happy because thought we maybe had broken through some barrier. This was later at night, and then the next day he was so mean to me. Like, mean. Snapping at me…

S: Wait, he was mean and angry?

T: He was mean and impatient and angry as though he really resented – this is what I put. Like I said, he may be able to share what was going on, I could only observe. What I observed is he let himself go to a physical place which involved what we would call lust, lasciviousness and feelings, and he seemed the next day to feel so guilty about that or to reject that, that he took it out on me. So much so that I talked to him about it. I said, I’m noticing it seems when we have a good time together, you seem to react against me the next day. He admitted it. He didn’t say no you’re crazy; he admitted it, and he basically said he would pray about it, but we never ever had more conversations about that. I was starting to give up, because I can’t make him figure out what this is, and he never came back to me. So that was again something I was just – we have a very busy household, I have ten years, I had five kids in 12 years, I think it was, so I was often pregnant, often nursing, going through that whole cycle, so it was a busy time to default to – I think we did sex once a week, maybe twice when there was a real big break between babies. It was something I signed up to do, he didn’t ask for more, and we stopped talking about it. But it was my lot in life. It was something that – okay, this is my life.

S: Yeah. Wow.

T: So I learned to lock that part away. He didn’t come calling very often, because we had a busy household. It was very much an act that I never could shake that I was the body available to perform this act, not that I was Tracey who was me. I didn’t expect anymore, because I’m in this marriage for life; however, I did think there was something wrong with me. I was asking him questions about certain things, but I was very much aware of my sexual dysfunction. I’m not working, I don’t feel like I work, so during this middle time of marriage, he had gone away for a basketball camp and I was actually staying at his parents, because it was in the same town his parents lived in, and I remember being in their back guest room and saying alright, I gotta figure this out. I gotta figure out if this is me and maybe there really is something broken with me and I need to go for medical help. I remember weighing, masturbation is wrong, even though I’m married; if my husband were with me it might not be so wrong, but I’m by myself, I’m giving myself pleasure – I remember making the logical decision if I can help fix myself it will be better than committing this sin. I can vividly remember the old antique bed, just the environment, because that would be the first orgasm I ever experienced in my life. I think I was 30.

S: Thirty years old! Okay, did you then sing Hallelujah, hallelujah, halleluuu-jah?

T: I could have sang hallelujah. I was in his parents’ house so I had to somewhat quiet, but I was so grateful that – I don’t even know if I had started reading a lot about the anatomy of where it’s all supposed to be but I could feel (going to get graphic here again, folks) – I got wet, that the excitement was mounting, that I was able to stimulate myself until that hot liquid started pouring out over my legs. I had never, ever felt that release, that sensation, and it was like oh my god, this is what people are talking about. This is what people are saying.

S: Tracey. Was it as good as your worship with Jesus?

(laughter)

T: It was better! And I could actually consciously say that, because up until then that worship is a sense of being transcendent in your head – not to say that an orgasm doesn’t involve your brain – but it definitely had a physical stimulation that my body responded to, so I was encouraged that I wasn’t broken.

S: Yay.

T: But I never told my spouse at the time, about this. I never told him I hadn’t orgasmed. I think I told myself that it would make him feel inadequate. But I was too embarrassed, it was just something we weren’t talking about. Then I figured okay, now I know where it is, maybe I can help guide him to maybe make that more accessible to me when we do our sex act. So I will say – when we do our sex act. That’s kind of how it was.

(laughter)

S: Was it scheduled and choreographed?

T: It was kind of scheduled. The kids – especially Sunday afternoon – they were supposed to go in their rooms and take a nap. It was kind of scheduled.

S: Yeah, okay.

T: And I was successful sometimes. I would say I never had one as full as by myself in marriage with him, in the sex act with him, but I believed that it wasn’t just me. We have work to do on that and so…the second stage is I guess a longer period, because the marriage ended up being pretty long. We were the stable couple as the other couples – I don’t know if we’ve said it on this episode – but many former Last Days Ministries couples ended up moving to Lancaster Pennsylvania to form our own church community, and since my ex and I were counsellors and on leadership in Last Days, we had…

S: You were directors at the school.

T: We were directors at the school, so we were kind of leaned on for a lot of counselling. We ended up doing a lot of counselling by phone.

S: Even me.

T: Even you.

S: We’ll get to that later. Continue with your sex story, please.

T: So, I now feel like I’m not broken; we have our scheduled time, I am more convinced that I can help guide this appendage that he has into the right places, and I don’t know what made us – you know your crazy story of having a thought; I don’t know if I did it, or if we talked about it, but all of a sudden I put my mouth on his penis, and he loved it. It was super great for me, because I’m out of the show now.

S: Yes.

T: I know that sounds awful, but the pressure’s off me, and I can absolutely do this and then he’s happy, he’s happy with me, we can go to bed, it can be over, and that’s great. It’s like, okay, this is a much better interaction.

S: Wait a second, I gotta say something here. We will talk about your marriage counselling for me, but I do remember talking with you at some point; call it counselling, call it sharing; I remember talking with you about the finer points of giving a blow job, and I remember your spouse later – I don’t know whether we were all together, but I remember him coming up to me and winking and smiling and saying, hey, thank you so much for helping my wife.

T: That’s right!

S: Do you remember that?

T: I do, but I remember trying to talk to you even earlier. You seemed like you had a great sex life going at the time, so I was like okay, well I’m not going to… I think I may have said we struggled, and you may have said lube, lube.

S: Yup.

T: It covers a multitude of sins; you may have said that. You gotta get the lube going. But I do remember that and I can’t remember what phase that was in.

S: It must have been before you had oral sex, or maybe right at the beginning.

T: It must have been.

S: I remember him actually crediting me with coaching you so that he could now get blow jobs, and he was very happy.

T: Yes! I do remember that. And I remember feeling a little embarrassed that it was still a wink and a nod, that sort of thing. I remember being a little embarrassed by that. But we did talk in bed of like, weren’t we the kinkiest Christians we knew.

(laughter)

T: It’s so crazy. Because we would start going through the couples; we don’t think they do this, we don’t think this couple does this…

S: Wait, alright, so you’re giving him blow jobs; is he going down on you?

T: So, he definitely was willing to do that and I didn’t like it Sharon. A lot. So…

S: You have to be sexually aroused. That’s, I think, one of the key learnings. Just going straight for the genitals or the clit, or the erogenous zones – for a woman, prior to arousal and desire building, no – that’s not the start button. It is not the start button, and it doesn’t feel good unless your engine’s already revving.

T: Good point. Where were you when you were giving us that counsel?

(laughter)

T: Um, because…

S: Tracey, I learned that later.

T: I have as well, but at the time I think a lot of my hangups was it all felt very staged and clinical, so at that point it’s like, this is now something I’m supposed to do for you, and you’re supposed to like it. And I didn’t love it, so I would conveniently redirect it, and then he was putting his thing in so it worked out.

S: So it was okay.

T: It was okay. And I’m like yeah, it’s not my favorite thing, but the fact that our mouths were even going on genitals – we thought we were just like…

S: You were radical!

T: Yeah, we were radical. We knew you did, because you had talked to us about that, but we were trying to go through the couples names of people we didn’t think did that, because as we’ll go through another part of our story, we had some of the most unhealthy marriages that came out of Last Days; absolutely some of the most unhealthy marriages that would later start to fall apart in catastrophic ways.

S: Yeah.

T: So we may have been the kinkiest couple.

S: Oh my gosh. On that counselling thing, I do remember years later – it would have been after that, maybe the mid to late 90s – I would call you and your spouse and I’d beg, my husband and I, I’d demand we got a conference call with the two of you.  Because I was desperate for help and counsel for our relationship issues and the marriage conflict. So I tried to help you in your sex life, and you tried to help me in my emotional life.

T: I used to say that to myself, and maybe to God in prayer, that if I never had to have sex again with him, we would have a great marriage. We get along; we can talk; we aren’t super clinger-dependent, he gives me my freedom, he gives me my freedom. We were, as I learned a lot later, a lot like brother and sister living together and so we had an affection; we had gone through a lot of life’s phases together, but there just was no sexual chemistry.

S: That would be great roommates, not great marriage.

T: Yes. So because of that, because we did have the skills of getting along, we weren’t fighting, we tried to be kind to one another, and prefer one another, we became the stable couple of the home group, the counsellors trying to help everybody through their problems. Of course nobody came to us for sexual advice, so it worked out. So yeah. That’s my second stage.

S: Okay folks, yeah – some of you might have guessed this already. We just can’t keep it contained. We thought we would get this all done in our third – we can’t, can we Tracey.

T: No, we cannot.

S: We thought we would get this all done in our third episode but no, we runneth over, because we just keep going on and on and on.

T: Just like a volcano. We keep bubbling away with all this hot lava.

S: Alright, so we are going to pause here and sign off, and then you’re just going to have to wait for the rest of it in episode four. So, Tracey, tell everybody where they need to go to follow us, and help spread the word about our crazy little adventure here.

T: And I assume, if you’re listening to us you’ve already found our podcast on the platform that you have chosen…

S: Good assumption.

T: I’m smart that way. So please take some time to rate us, if you would, and leave a review, because that helps us in the ratings and for other people to find us, and also if you want to see some of these fun pictures or leave some direct messages for us, go to Instagram, Feet of Clay.cult sisters, and we would love to hear from you.

S: Thanks everyone for hanging in with us and we’ll see you next time.

T: Bye!

S: Oh my God, I hope we’re not going to be those grandmothers that just go on and on and on and our kids will roll their eyes and our grandkids will go oh holy shit, here she comes, she’s gonna start talking. Hopefully not.