This transcript has been edited for clarity.

Episode 002 – Revisiting the book No Compromise

April 02, 2023

S: Alright, we’re recording, aren’t we.

T: We are recording.

S: So, this is – I’m guessing that this is our prologue or something like that, because I’m not really sure this will be the first episode of our podcast.

T: Okay.

S: It might be, I don’t know. But it’s March 30^th, it’s almost 9 o’clock, I’ve just come into town.

T: Knoxville, Tennessee.

S: Yep, to hang out with you. It’s the first time we’re seeing each other in person since you did your story on I was a Teenage Fundamentalist podcast.

T: That is correct, and I did that – I didn’t really tell you I was doing that.

S: No you didn’t.

T: I did tell you I was thinking of getting a podcast started and you were like yes, I’m there, whatever you need me to do. So I took that as licence as alright, I’m going to do this, and I’m going to talk about Sharon in my podcast.

(laughter)

S: Well done, well done. I just want to set the stage here too, because we have some very large oatmeal and chocolate chip cookies, I’m going to indulge while we’re talking. I don’t know if that breaks any rules.

T: No, it doesn’t.

S: And also some sparkling mango seltzer, spiked. Not so much that I’ll get tipsy, but enough that I’ll enjoy it.

T: And I don’t know if you’ve heard, the Cheers to Leaving podcast, but that’s their thing they start every podcast with. <sound of wine glasses clinking> Not that we want to copy them.

S: No we’re not, but cheers girls.

T: They’ve been very inspiring to me as I’ve been listening to them, so…

S: Alright, I know one of the things you wanted to do is get into my story, but I’m not sure I’m ready to do that right now.

T: Okay.

S: I think what I wanted to talk with you about is over this last week I’ve been reading the book No Compromise. I have never read that book.

T: You’ve never read the book?

S: I never read it.

T: Ooohkay.

S: I didn’t want to. I knew so much shit would have been whitewashed, I knew true things that I know were not being said, and I was just – why would I read this?

T: Do you remember if Martin ordered a copy? When it came out we were in Richmond and I remember having some conversation.

S: I remember seeing the cover, the one that had kind of the watercolor – the greenish…

T: Oh yeah it was a terrible, TERRIBLE picture!

S: A really bad painting. I do remember seeing the book and I remember intentionally saying I’ve got no interest in reading that at all, so I have never read it. and I’ll be honest, when I decided I was going to read it, after your stint on the Aussies gig, I thought alright I’m going to read this thing, but I am fucking not going to put any more money into that endeavor, so I basically went on eBay and bought a used copy so I could have a clean conscience on that. So anyway, I’ve spent the last week reading it and I’ve gotta say, I’ve just been in a funk. It’s brought me back to the intensity, the self – the agony of the self-judgement that we were all in and under, and also the sense that every moment, every choice has eternal consequences for yourself and for everyone else, and the weight, the sheer weight – literally the weight of the world of all the souls on earth are because if you don’t get it right, then you’re not being God’s perfect vessel to bring his word. And then of course, as we talk at different times we’re going to unpack all that, and it’s just a whole lot of the bullshit, but you know.

T: It is. I mean, Christians are responsible for this …

S: This generation of Christians is responsible for this generation of sinners.

T: That’s a heavy burden to bear.

S: Oh man. So I went back, and I’m reading it and kind of tracking the timeline and I have to say, I didn’t realize how “new baby Christian” Keith was when he led me to the Lord. When I was 14 and he was – oh my god, how old was he, barely 21 or something…

T: Yeah and you did find the bible that he gave to you and you sent me the photocopy of the letter he wrote to you, and I can tell from that he’s very young. Super juvenile.

S: You know what though, we were babies the entire time. We were. So I don’t know, I thought okay where are we going to start? I thought we need to kind of outline – what are we going to do? What’s our episode list and topic list going to be, and what are we going to cover, and what’s our mission, and what are our values…

(laughter)

S: You know the way I think – strategic organizational planning. But I also just thought, I read it with a combination of curiosity, compassion, a bit of infuriation and indignation at oh my god, the arrogance. Not just of Keith and Melody, but all of us. The arrogance, oh my god, the arrogance. And recognizing the devastation that really was visited upon so many people on an individual level. It’s one thing to count all these numbers at one of the concerts or the enquirers meetings or the newsletter mailing list and the albums that go out – okay yeah, those are great numbers and I’m sure many people’s lives were changed for the better, no doubt whatsoever. And there were individuals lives who were really devastated. And out of hubris, arrogance, spiritual pride, immaturity and some just being in asshole or a bitch, and that’s the truth of it.

T: And at a later time we can unpack when you say that many people’s lives were changed for the better – I think what’s been sobering for me, even since that podcast went out is the amount of people that have been messaging me that either received the newsletter and the amount of condemnation that they had when that came into their mailbox and the things they were dealing with, or those that went off to a training school in YWAM can relate to all the things that we were teaching in ICT, and a few people that actually followed into Last Days after we left and the amount of years that they had to unwind some of that heavy condemnation and that guilt and shame. There was one day when I got a couple of messages, I sat in that chair over there and I just wept, because I know the stuff that’s impacted me, but it was pretty staggering to see – at one point that mailing list was 450,000 people…

S: It was a big ass mailing list.

T: …when I last – when I  stopped doing the numbers. That’s a lot of people.

S: It’s a lot of people. And it was a clean list. That’s the thing that a lot of people don’t really think or know about that list – we never solicited for donations, ever. Well, you know what – and I remember even when we were back in California when we were on the Dolorosa Street, Keith had to send a repentance letter or statement in the next newsletter, because we had an envelope in the prior one that said this is not a request,

S&T: just a convenience for those who feel led!

T: So I was receiving the newsletter at that time, and I remember that especially, and then the newsletter that came with the repentance, and as someone who was receiving it I was just like, that’s just so cool! These people are so awesome.

S: We were!

T: That was part of my draw to be able to go there.

S: That list, you know, I think that really factors in. to have a clean list that is regularly purged – by that we meant you could stay on our mailing list and receive the newsletter, without ever sending a penny in, you didn’t have to donate, but we did need to hear from you at least once a year so if we hadn’t had any letter from your postcard or anything, we’d send out a notice saying hey, if you still want to get this let us know, otherwise we’re going to take you off the mailing list. So to have hundreds of thousands of absolutely engaged Christians who are interested in the message of self-sacrifice, who are interested in this whole thing of being challenged, who have never been asked for money, and who definitely have opted in on a regular basis – that’s an astonishing asset. And frankly – you said as much and kind of alluded to it in that interview you gave, but I think for YWAM especially, I think they were just like, drooling. Creaming their panties at the possibility of getting their hands on that.

T: Absolutely. We were so young, even when everything was kind of coming and crashing down it was outside of my naivety to believe that YWAM would have ulterior motives, right?

S: Yes.

T: They had been part of the curriculum; they’d been part of the teaching; they’d been mentoring, and so one of the things that I can say, in all our screwed-up-ness, we were a pretty sincere bunch at Last Days.

S: Yep.

T: We had a lot of guilt and condemnation but we weren’t out for an agenda to really take advantage of people financially, so I never thought that Youth With A Mission would have that, and I think being able (especially through the years) to see that they absolutely set their sights on Keith, and they absolutely set their sights on the ministry.

S: And then that whole Americans Against Abortion petition with the millions of names that were all promised that they’re never going to get used for anything, and then to find out – oh no, yeah, she wants to turn them over to Pat Robertson for his run for Presidency. It’s like, wow, the duplicity, the inconsistency, the hypocrisy was pretty astounding. So I’m kind of rambling here…

T: You’re getting into some really good parts of the story that we haven’t heard yet.

S: We’ll get there.

T: As far as you getting there and the whole Americans Against Abortion. If you know in that podcast I steered a little clear of that, they had mentioned that and a lot of it – I think that’s a whole subject in and of itself in a podcast, as far as Americans Against Abortion goes.

S: I’m just noticing, you keep turning your face away from the mic.

T: You know why? Because my little puppy’s over here.

S: I know I know, he’s cuter than I am and you want to look at him.  Okay, yeah, there is a whole lot more there and this rambling is also just because honestly, these last few days when I’ve been expecting to get together to talk about it I’ve just been so depressed, reading that book.

T: Do you think it’s a good thing to unpack, or do you feel that it is not healthy? Or are you like I need to go through this?

S: No I think it’s good  – I’ve also recently been talking with a trauma therapist and looking at different things in my childhood, and also the whole Last Days Ministries experience and things with the arranged marriage and all the stuff that happened with that. So it’s timely. The timing is right. I just was surprized at how oppressive it felt and it was almost as if I’m reading this and I’m that teenager right back there, with all that angst, with all that face down in the carpet in the houses in Woodland Hills, praying and seeking and weeping, and we’re praying for revival and laying down our idols and yet nothing was ever really good enough.

T: At all.

S: It never was. So you basically lived with the constant underlying belief, no matter what was said, the underlying belief that we are failing, I am failing in my quest to die to self and let Jesus be all. I’ll just never, never get there, and that’s an unhappy place to live.

T: It’s a very unhappy place to live, and for a long time.

S: Years. Decades. I love what you said – you can take the girl out of the cult, but you can’t take the cult out of the girl. Or at least, it took us many years for that to go away.

T: I mean, Lindsay and I (my ex) and you and Martin – we left with the purpose of basically starting a very similar ministry in Richmond so one of the things I have packed away are all my ICT notes which is why I’m able to post so many things, because I kept all those, because we were going to start a school. Martin was going to start a magazine, so we were going into phase two and basically – okay, they’ve screwed this up, we’re going to start fresh and do it the right way. So there was definitely a lot of years that that continued on, and reinforced in the marriages, right. So you have this head of the household – one of the things I’ve been thinking about in all this as I’ve been looking through journals is what a crazy idea to give a young, hormonal man the power that what he thinks and does is of God to lead.

S: Just because he’s got a penis.

T: Just because. And as a mother of sons who I love very much, you look at that whole growth line and how crazy that is as young – you were even younger than I was – but to come in and okay I’ve handed my life over to this man now who is my leader, and who now hears from God.

S: But we’ve really handed our lives over to God okay, we’re just following God’s rules and God’s laws, and if we love God and we trust God, then that’s what it will be. What was that one – there was a thing in Peter something about wives, even if your husband is disobedient to the Lord, he will be won without a word by observing your chaste and respectful behavior.

T: Yes.

S: So it’s still all on us.

T: Right? And how to walk that line of trying to give your input without being overbearing or persuading too much, and then checking it and praying and trying to basically convince him, and just the angst of that. That’s so much angst in itself. One of the things I realized in that podcast was it was bad enough to have just God in me, so I’ve got to please God, and die to myself and have all that angst, and that’s bad enough, but now I’ve aligned myself with a man so now there’s another umbrella over me. So I’ve got to please God but I’ve also got to please him, while I please God.

S: You know.

T: It’s crazy.

S: I remember after the engagement – we’ll get into that in another thing, but I do remember going outside in the middle of the day one day, and running across one of the hayfields down between the driveway and the water wheel, down where the wood line was there, and just falling on my knees, and falling on my face, and crying and crying about it and saying God, Jesus please. And what’s so funny is in retrospect now, I can see the trauma and terror. Because basically I was told this is what your life is going to be, it wasn’t a choice I made. But, I kept pleading, thinking about the scriptures in Paul where he talks about it’s better to just not be married because then you can be fully for Jesus, and I was praying oh God, Jesus, I’m so afraid, I’m afraid my heart’s going to be divided and not be fully for you if I get married. What if my heart’s not fully for you? There was this terror of that. And it was truly terror.

T: That was before you got married.

S: That was when I got engaged. It was first hey, we’ve prayed about it, Martin’s asked for this, we believe it’s of God, what do you think Sharon? I was barely 18 years old. What do I think? Well, sure. And then three weeks later okay, yeah? You getting married? You want to marry him? Okay. Good.  Anyway, it was crazy. More details of that later, I know we’re jumping around. I just want to get back to the thing about (I sort of have said it jokingly) but mission and values. I thought about this, okay we’re going to do it, we’re going to do this thing. Why? Honestly? Who the fuck cares? Why is what we have to say that important that people should want to sacrifice an hour of their life to listen? So there’s been that question in my mind of alright, well what, you think you’ve got something so, so vital? Is there hubris in this? Is there just – it’s funny, it’s that whole check our hearts again, right?

T: Exactly. Check your hearts!

S: Check our hearts, and it’s like okay, is it also coming out of disgust or anger at shit from the past? And sure there’s still that. I mean, I’m human. I’m not looking for vengeance, I’m not looking for somebody to suffer; I’m not looking for any of that. And I’m also like, you know what? The truth is the truth, and it’s a little ridiculous that grown adults can’t face the realities of the truth. None of us are perfect. Why hide it? Why try to pretend it was something that it wasn’t? so there’s that, but I also thought on the values side, this isn’t for me, and I know for you – actually your heart is better than mine in this, I’ve gotta say that.

T: Oh, I don’t know about that.

S: It’s not about – I don’t want to cause pain to anyone. I really don’t. and I think for some people who hold onto certain beliefs and certain mindsets and their world view – it’s a comfort for them. And my opinion – and this is just my opinion – is that often times they’re kind of stuck in this immaturity of needing to see things in black and white because life is messy. Adult reality is messy. If everything’s black and white, everything works really well. That’s what our three year olds want. That’s what our five and six year olds want. But it’s not just shades of grey, it’s a whole rainbow of color. But for some people, the need to continue to see black and white is a comfort and it’s scary to consider something else. And I know, because it was terrifying for me.

T: Correct.

S: I think it was terrifying for you too, right?

T: Yes.

S: So I’m not out there trying to poke holes in somebody’s belief system, except when that belief system causes damage and destruction and pain to other people who don’t deserve it, that’s when I’m like – kinda wanna tear down your bullshit.

T: Yes, absolutely. That’s a big subject as far as – I agree, and one of the things that struck me is no one’s really come out about Last Days which has happened a long time ago.

S: Which is also the question of why is it relevant. Who cares now?

T: Why is it relevant? Although when you start peel back Youth With A Mission, and Melody – what really struck me was on the 40^th anniversary of Keith death which happened last July, so I would say from that point on was kind where all of a sudden I was like, I have to (as I’m getting older) set the record straight.

S: Enough is enough. The Emperor’s New Clothes, right?

T: Yes, as far as it depends on me. One of the very close mentors of mine who was at Last Days for years, who now has a new ministry and then Melody, and they sent out this thing, and they all got together at the Tyler YWAM base to celebrate and the message is can’t we all be like Keith? There’s this whole thing of we just need to follow God like Keith, and – no. No. We don’t need to do that. So where are they getting that from? They’re getting that from the book No Compromise.

S: This is just occurring to me this minute. The people that – so clearly Melody really knew Keith, obviously. She knew him better than anyone, right.

T: Correct.

S: Everybody else totally singing his praises (haha, singing) – none of those people lived with him.

T: Correct! I absolutely knew that, and what’s been stunning is how many people are coming out to act as though they did know him, because of his music which we all – hey, he sang with passion, and I think part of his effectiveness was the sincere, authentic cry of his heart in the stage he was in. And you can do that in all kinds of music. There’s beauty in that, right. So I would say Kathleen Dillard, she was one that met for this anniversary, she did know him, and then the other people, from my perspective, that knew them the most was you and Martin. And you’ve been completely cut out of all of the story, completely.

S: There are some photos in there that still have me. There’s no big X over my face.

T: There’s that one at YWAM where you guys are sitting with Floyd McClung.

S: Not only that, but on the big car, Texas or bust…

T: Yeah, yeah, you’re the some others.

S: I’m the some others.

T: Some others kind of came along with us. Okay, one of the other things in my ICT school we read a lot of biographies, and I was one of those really young I’m going to read all these biographies, like Rhys Howell Intercessor, and that’s the time – you know, he didn’t wear a hat because culturally that was a thing he had to be willing to die to himself about, and I’m like what’s my cultural thing? And that’s when I stop shaving my legs, right.

S: And deodorant. No deodorant. Oh my god.

T: Because it’s like I want to prove to God that I am like Rhys Howells and I want to do all this, and so I’m realizing people are taking this book and they’re trying to pattern their life after Keith Green, because of the way Melody tells this story. And it’s an incomplete story.

S: It is.

T: And yet she has some portions of it because she was married to him, but even personally some of the way that I observed them relating together and stuff – this is not a complete story.

S: It’s not.

T: It is not a true story, and it’s absolutely not a true story of Last Days. So she can talk about Keith and their relationship, but I was there at Last Days for the five years where Melody – I may have seen her three times. She just was not around. So the story, and the way it all came crashing down – this is not the history.

S: No it’s not. Well, if nothing else maybe we’ll set the record straight on a few things. Maybe we’ll give an alternate perspective on a few things. We’re going to tell a fucking funny story, that’s for sure.

T: Yes. And now we’re far enough away from it that it’s so far away it’s like another life and it is funny.

S:  And I’m glad we’re doing this. Was it three years ago you and I got together with my friend Suzanne who kind of facilitated, we spent a weekend outlining and talking about writing a book called Confessions of the Cult Sisters. It wasn’t just about the whole Last Days thing but it’s about our whole journey in life, and I’m glad we’re doing this podcast. I know you’ve got it named Feet of Clay. I kind of like  Feet of Clay – Confessions of the Cult Sisters, but we’ll see where it goes because this isn’t actually the first official – this isn’t episode one. This is the prologue. Is that the correct word?

T: Prologue is the correct word. Introduction is also a fine word.

(laughter)

S: So maybe this is just enough of the tone of who we are and a few of the things that we have to talk about that will be of enough interest that once we get this baby really launched with the official thing, people maybe be interested to tune in.

T: Yes, and I think that because we are born of the Jesus People era right…

S: Amen sister!

T: Which is kind of making this whole resurgence here, but what also has been truly heartbreaking for me is our children’s generation because there are many, many in our children’s age group who had parents like we were, who didn’t come out of it like we came out of it. some of those children’s stories have broken my heart.

S: You say we came out of it; the truth is that of the two couples, you and I came out; our husbands are still very much in.

T: Our husbands are not out.

S: Oh I’m sorry, our ex-husbands.

T: But you know, once you’re married…

(laughter)

T: In the eyes of the Lord. But what I have realized in hearing some of these other stories is at least there was a fissure in the family that we brought that we were bringing the devil into the household, but it also snapped some of that intensity for our children right, because they got to see two parents – okay, maybe there’s different ways, I have to think through this stuff for myself, whereas some kids – there have been some home schooling stories where they never saw another human being outside of their own family group, and the discipline which I talk about in my Instagram story – which is probably, if I were to chart up everything that I personally feel that I have done the most damage in my life, it’s been in the method of discipline that we did with our children. There are some pretty horrific stories out there of fundamentalist children who also endured some of those. Purity culture – all the stuff that has names now? We lived that, without the names.

S: Yeah.

T: So it was like, we didn’t call it purity culture, it was just like…

S: Being sold out for Jesus!

T: Sold out for Jesus, so I think being able to see that – I mean, both of us believed God didn’t want us to use birth control and all the struggles that go along with that.

S: Oh yeah.

T: My husband, more than your husband, believed we should be in absolutely no debt, so just having five children on one income with no debt was really hard.

(laughter)

S: Mine went to the other extreme.

T: Yours did!

S: How many credit cards can we use and jack off?

T: So, one judgemental story which is really funny – cos we’re struggling right, my ex-husband ended up being a teacher, and Martin wanted to have brass switch plates throughout the house.

S: Oh my gosh, I remember that.

T: And I remember Lindsay and I going oh man, we were like that’s just such a waste. And of course we were still under that everything you have you should be giving back to the Lord. And we were like, how does he justify brass switch plates? We have to edit this out.

S: No, you can leave it in.

T: But we were definitely not the family of brass switch plates. If I got a turkey on Thanksgiving that was amazing. So there are a lot of things that have visited other generations of this fundamentalist mindset that I think it is good for some of our generation to come out and go hey.

S: Our generation. How old are you?

T: I just turned 60.

S: Oh okay, I’m 61 gonna be 62.

T: Yeah, we’re kinda old.

S: We are kinda old. And this journey started for me with the Jesus thing at age 14.

T: And me 15.

S: We got some years on us.

T: We do.

S: Alright so folks, hopefully a little bit of what you just heard sounds interesting; if not, sorry we just wasted 33 minutes of your time.

T: If we don’t edit anything out.

S: And if it is intriguing, I don’t know. How does this thing work? Do they like, subscribe to a podcast?

T: Yeah, so it’s available where everyone gets their podcast; they get uploaded and if we’re hoping to do this every two weeks…

S: Yeah, two weeks sounds good.

T: …until we’ve told the stories that we need to tell, then we’ll bow out.

S: We’ll be done.

T: So I’ll be posting it on my Instagram which is Feet of Clay.

S: You gotta show me how to use that. I still don’t know how to use it.

T: Oh, she’s old.

S:  I am old.

T: We gotta get her into the modern age. I will, so we’ll be doing little titbits there, and there may be a morphing of what Feet of Clay then becomes in the future, but we’ll keep everyone informed.

S: I love you Tracey.

T: And I love you. And we’ve got a lot of good pictures, because when we did come out, we came with …

S: …a vengeance.

T: We made up for lost teen years.

S: Yes we did.

T: I’ve been looking through some of those, and I’ve got hooker pictures, and burlesque pictures…

S: Rocky Horror Show costume pictures…

T: We have some good photos of us through the years.

S: It’ll be fun. Thanks Tracey.

T: Thank you.

S: Adios.